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Author Topic: Polish R-L21  (Read 2307 times)
rms2
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« on: December 17, 2010, 07:10:39 PM »

We just got, as far as I know, our first non-Jewish, Polish R-L21, and this one is an honest-to-goodness Polish citizen, not an American of Polish descent.

The surname is Jamiolkowski. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Jamiolki-Swietliki, not too far from Bialystok in NE Poland and not far from the Belarus border.

The haplotype is not at all Scots Modalish, in case anyone is wondering, and his only close match beyond 12 markers is with someone with the same surname.

I know about this one because he joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project while waiting for the rest of his Deep Clade-R results and today just popped up as R-L21: kit 155274 (no Ysearch entry yet).
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 11:23:05 PM »

We just got, as far as I know, our first non-Jewish, Polish R-L21, and this one is an honest-to-goodness Polish citizen, not an American of Polish descent.

The surname is Jamiolkowski. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Jamiolki-Swietliki, not too far from Bialystok in NE Poland and not far from the Belarus border.

The haplotype is not at all Scots Modalish, in case anyone is wondering, and his only close match beyond 12 markers is with someone with the same surname.

I know about this one because he joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project while waiting for the rest of his Deep Clade-R results and today just popped up as R-L21: kit 155274 (no Ysearch entry yet).

Bravo, Rich!

Thank you for keeping us updated on this, especially discoveries such as our Polish cousin!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jdean
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 11:13:58 AM »

Second that
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 05:01:38 PM »

Perhaps his ancestor shipped out on the Aberdeen-Bialystock Steamship Line, or was a slave taken during the Polish raids on Ireland.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 05:03:31 PM »

Perhaps his ancestor shipped out on the Aberdeen-Bialystock Steamship Line, or was a slave taken during the Polish raids on Ireland.

First he was beaten into submission by an R1a1 wielding a hefty kielbasa who (the R1a1, not the kielbasa) also forced him to speak an Indo-European language. ;-)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 05:04:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 07:00:20 PM »

Perhaps his ancestor shipped out on the Aberdeen-Bialystock Steamship Line, or was a slave taken during the Polish raids on Ireland.

First he was beaten into submission by an R1a1 wielding a hefty kielbasa who (the R1a1, not the kielbasa) also forced him to speak an Indo-European language. ;-)

LOL kielbasa.

I think poor Aberdeen is always at the end of our jokes! But I am excited about the Polish fellow.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2010, 10:07:53 PM »

It would be nice if we could get a few more Eastern European recruits. I don't expect a lot of Eastern European R-L21, but it's cool to get, anyway.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 10:30:28 AM »

The beginngs of a clade are probably often at a point where it is less common today but if we dont slowly build up a sample from the places it is rare then it will be impossible to compare variance and we may miss the opening chapters of the clade's story.  Certainly if the surfing the wave of advance model for S116 and L11 as a whole is correct then its origin point could be somewhere where  there were few opportunities to expand and numbers may have remained low with a lot of extinction of lines.   I think that is an issue that a lot of the variance ideas overlooks.     
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 03:38:39 PM »

The beginngs of a clade are probably often at a point where it is less common today but if we dont slowly build up a sample from the places it is rare then it will be impossible to compare variance and we may miss the opening chapters of the clade's story.  Certainly if the surfing the wave of advance model for S116 and L11 as a whole is correct then its origin point could be somewhere where  there were few opportunities to expand and numbers may have remained low with a lot of extinction of lines.   I think that is an issue that a lot of the variance ideas overlooks.     

Excellent point.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 05:55:27 PM »

Does anyone know the ratio of Polish samples to British ones in the various databases? I would assume there are not as many Polish ones.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



jerome72
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 06:28:58 PM »

Does anyone know the ratio of Polish samples to British ones in the various databases? I would assume there are not as many Polish ones.
On ftdna:
England: 21838
Ireland: 12727
N Ireland: 677
Scotland: 10246
UK: 9655
Wales: 1866
total: 57009

Poland: 3318

So le ratio is 1 : 17
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OConnor
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 10:07:57 PM »

I had a look at the Poland dna Project. For no real reason i expected a larger showing of R1b1b2 type folk.

They have almost 2000 members so far.
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Polish
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 10:08:30 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 08:31:37 PM »

Yeah, hopefully more will surface in the near future.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 09:17:06 PM »

Two L21+ Jamiolkowskis joined the R-L21 Plus Project. They're both in the newly created Poland category on our Y-DNA Results pages.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2011, 09:36:50 PM »

Two L21+ Jamiolkowskis joined the R-L21 Plus Project. They're both in the newly created Poland category on our Y-DNA Results pages.

You have been mentioning Eastern Europe for two days now!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2011, 09:11:59 PM »

Two L21+ Jamiolkowskis joined the R-L21 Plus Project. They're both in the newly created Poland category on our Y-DNA Results pages.

You have been mentioning Eastern Europe for two days now!

Maybe we'll start to see some more L21+ results from there. I hope so. I'm hoping our Bulgarian cousin joins us soon.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2011, 08:56:18 PM »

We have a new Polish R-L21 this evening: Dobrzeniecki, kit 196140, Ysearch K47ZH.

He does NOT match the "Scots Modal" and does not have any matches at all beyond 12 markers.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 08:56:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2011, 10:39:09 PM »

We have a new Polish R-L21 this evening: Dobrzeniecki, kit 196140, Ysearch K47ZH.

He does NOT match the "Scots Modal" and does not have any matches at all beyond 12 markers.

Excellent! The Polish ones are particularly golden finds.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



OConnor
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2011, 08:05:20 PM »

when i did a y-search for K47ZH,  I came up with


........................markers compared...........Gen. Distance
Y7G76 Baker...............19.................................2

« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 08:06:22 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2011, 11:14:01 AM »

when i did a y-search for K47ZH,  I came up with


........................markers compared...........Gen. Distance
Y7G76 Baker...............19.................................2



Like I said, no close matches beyond 12 markers.

Two off at 19 markers is not a close match.

My point was that every time we get a new Polish R-L21, someone starts talking about Scottish immigration to Poland. This gentleman is nowhere near the Scots Modal and has no close matches beyond 12 markers, even though he has been tested to 37 markers.

In other words, there is nothing to indicate he is the descendant of someone from the British Isles.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2011, 07:24:55 PM »

when i did a y-search for K47ZH,  I came up with


........................markers compared...........Gen. Distance
Y7G76 Baker...............19.................................2



Like I said, no close matches beyond 12 markers.

Two off at 19 markers is not a close match.

My point was that every time we get a new Polish R-L21, someone starts talking about Scottish immigration to Poland. This gentleman is nowhere near the Scots Modal and has no close matches beyond 12 markers, even though he has been tested to 37 markers.

In other words, there is nothing to indicate he is the descendant of someone from the British Isles.

Rats! There goes the Aberdeen/Warsaw steamship line theory!
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2011, 09:14:19 PM »

Oh, well. Now there is a genius arguing on Rootsweb that the U152 population of Merry Olde England has been much reduced by service in its various imperial conflicts, its place taken by L21 interlopers from Ireland, Wales, and Scotland. Sigh . . .

I pointed out to him that it is hardly likely that U152 suffered any more than any other British y haplogroup, but he seems to have imbibed (from somewhere . . . hmm) a sense of U152 "invader" superiority - pip, pip, cheerio, and all that, what.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 04:50:18 PM »

It is a well-known fact that the British army in the Victorian age conducted DNA tests on prospective recruits, and that U-152 individuals were only admitted as officers.

Isn't it?
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Jdean
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 07:24:45 PM »

It is a well-known fact that the British army in the Victorian age conducted DNA tests on prospective recruits, and that U-152 individuals were only admitted as officers.

Isn't it?

Judging by the comments flying about from certain U152 individuals that certainly makes a lot of sense

'Lions led by donkeys'
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 07:44:32 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

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