Iberes and R-SRY2627 / M167

[Jean M]

Another repost from my blog:  Iberes and R-SRY2627 / M167.

Another addition since the splitting up of Peopling of Europe into separate pages is to the discussion of the Iberians. I'm talking here not about all the inhabitants of Iberia, but about the specific tribe known to the Ancient Greeks and Romans as the Iberes.

Their long dead language, which remains largely undeciphered, is not Indo-European. In recent decades linguists have uncovered similarities with Aquitainian, the Iron Age precursor of the language spoken by Basques today. Even if we argue that these similarities were the result of linguistic borrowing, rather than a common ancestor, the two would need to be in contact for borrowing to take place. Aquitanian was spoken in what is now South-West France. By the time inscriptions crop up in Iberian c. 400 BC, they were all along the south-eastern coast of Iberia. But Javier Veleza points out that if they had been there for very long, the language would have broken up into dialects. So he suggests that Iberian had spread not all that long before 400 BC from a homeland in North Catalonia bordering Aquitania.[1]

Interestingly the distribution of R1b-SRY2627 seems to follow that path. It is rare everywhere except the central and eastern Pyrenees. It runs at about 2-7% across Iberia. So it was astonishing to find 48% in Valle de Aran, Catalonia. Such a density probably means that the origin point was nearby.[2]

• 1. J. Veleza, Lengue vs. cultura material: el (viejo) problema de la lengua indigena de Catalunya, Actes de la III Reunió Internacional d'Arqueologia de Calafell (Calafell, 25 al 27 de novembre de 2004), Arqueo Mediterrània, vol. 9 (2006), 273-280.
• 2. A. M. Lopez-Parra et al., In search of the Pre- and Post-Neolithic Genetic Substrates in Iberia: Evidence from Y-Chromosome in Pyrenean Populations, Annals of Human Genetics, vol. 73 (2008), pp. 42-53.

You need to click through to the original, or my blog, to see the images.

[Maliclavelli]

I think that what Mikewww says on your blog is interesting. These subclades (both R-L21 and R-M167) were born on Western Europe from R-P312 and that they lack in Italy (we have some R-L167 in Liguria) demonstrates that they arose after that R-P312 from Italy, or anyway from East of  Western Europe, migrated there. To link this subclade to a people or a language is perhaps too early. Anyway it could be that from Italy migrated an ancient form of Indo-European that could be linked to Iberian and other Hispanic languages that I found in the toponyms like Corduba from  IE *Ghort- like in Etruscan Curtun (Cortona) etc., late Indo-European: Latin ”hortus”, English “Garden”  etc.

[eochaidh]

In Irish (Gaelic), Gort means field.

[Mikewww]

I think that what Mikewww says on your blog is interesting....

Here is what I said:

Thank you for your research on this.

I do not agree that it follows that because SRY2627 has such a high frequency in Valle de Aran that its origin must be nearby.

I do think it is possible and I don't know the original expansion location for SRY2627. I do have some genetic evidence that indicates an expansion point not at Valle de Aran or adjacent to it.

There is a mutation, L176.2, that appears to be consistent and may be instructive. So far, depending on how you count it, 14 of 14 or 15 of 15 SRY2627+ folks who have tested for L176.2 have been derived or L176.2+.

Through WTY, we know U152 and L21 are ancestral or L176.2-. However, within R-P312*, L176.2+ has been found. The three R-L176.2* guys are from England, Ireland and Germany.

In addition, L165+ (aka S68) people are L176.2+, I know of ten of those folks and they are from Scotland, England and Sweden. The majority of this group, the Scots, believe their family surnames and folklore are of Scandinavian descent. Ethnoancestry agrees. http://www.ethnoancestry.com/S68.html

The net is SRY2627 has at least two immediate peer subclades in Central and Northern Europe.

Another factor is variance, but it is not giving a clear answer. When I calculate for the 50 (of 67) non-multi-copy markers, the variance is a little higher for Germany and France as compared to Spain and Portugal.

Besides France and Germany (and Iberia of course), we also have SRY2627 people in Belgium, Poland, Switzerland and Czech Republic.

The genetic evidence is not conclusive one way or another, but I think we have to consider an expansion to the Pyrenees for SY2627, as well than from the Pyrenees.

SRY2627 TMRCA appears to be about 15 to 20% less than L21's or U152's. Are there migrations from the Pyrenees in the correct timeframe, back towards Central and Northern Europe?

Here are the P312+ L176.2+ SRY2627- folks:

L165-:
f41647  Miller   England, North East, Co. Durham, Sunderland
f171839  Noble   Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f86995   Pleis   Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover

L165+ (Ethnoancestry S68/Norse Viking):
f163136  Ayton   England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f40551  Greenwade   zzzunk
f47096  MacLeod   Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f96597  MacLeod   Scotland
f46281  McDonald   Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f54067 McGirt   zzzunk
f137480 McLeod   Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f148833  McLeod   zzzunk
f27859  McLeod   zzzunk
f99990  Olofsson   Sweden, Västra Götaland län, Orust Island

We do have a couple of SRY2627+ folks from Italy.

Here are the SRY2627+ (and presumably L176.2+) people outside of Iberia and the Isles:

fN72247  Govaert   Belgium
fN47983  Verbeeck   Belgium, Antwerp, Aartselaar
fE2318  Wangermez  Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers

f153374  Ankele   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
f123844  Backes   Germany, Saarland, Bliesen
f139944   Bender   Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate, Bad Kreuznach, Laubenheim
y64JUT   Heldenbrand   Germany
f21767  Heffter   Germany, Baden-Württemberg, Ortenau, Renchen/Rust
f139842   Koch   Germany
yHN4NX   Kranz   Germany
ySNMFM   List   Germany
yYPXDZ  Roush   Germany
fzVern01  Rutzky  Germany
f29105  Trautvetter   Germany, Saxony

fN71305  Florin   Switzerland (French)

y93E2A  Spriano   Italy, Piedmont
f84257  Giliberti   Italy, Sicily, Palermo

f116134  Schoenberg   Hungary, Szecseny
f40804  zzzunk   Czech Republic
f138253 Bielawski   Poland
yX3C37   Corbett   Ukraine

f23253  Bourgeois   France
y9VRCB  Bourgeois   France
f156899  Bouzanquet   France, Languedoc-Roussillon, Gard, St. Laurent d'Aigouze
f36517  Branchereau   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Macqueville
f148371  Brousse   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente, Cognac
f62986  David dit St. Michel   France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
yS865H  Chauncey   France
yYEC5P  Dorsey   France
yTCRDB   David   France
fN74352   De Langre   France, Bourgogne, Yonne, Tharot (near Avallon)
f160861   Fourroux   France, Aquitane, Upper Pyrennnes, Vic
fN77006  Gariépy   France, Aquitaine, Landes, Montfort-en-Chalosse
f169843  Grouazel   France, Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Saint-Milo
f126548  Juillet   France, Pays de la Loire, Vendée, Loge Fougereuse
f108419  Luguet   France, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, Pas-de-Calais, Guînes
fE8915  Marotte   France
yDQVBS  Nolette   France
f61162  Questel   France, Bassie-Normandie, St. Alnau
f121645  Robert   France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
fN59894  Tetreau   France, Poitou-Charentes, Poitoou
f62450   Tromblee   France
fN42387  Vernade   France, Centre, Cher, Bourges

I really don't know what to make of it all.  When I look at the above I see a lot of far-flung non-Iberian sounding people. On the other hand frequencies are low except in Valle de Aran.

[Maliclavelli]

"Here are the P312+ L176.2+ SRY2627- folks".

Many thanks for all these data.

[A.D.]

Gort does indeed mean field  in Gealge ( pac is used more commonly now) and thanks to Eochaidh I was able to pin down the exact place of a  Family going back at least a couple of hundred years possibaly to the Flight of the Earls or maybe even earlier.

[A.D.]

sorry typo 'paric'-field

[Mikewww]

Another repost from my blog: 

Jean, I'm having a hard time getting to your blog.  Is there a new URL for it?

[Jean M]

The DNA Forums move seems to have broken a few things. The new url for my blog: Distant Past.   

[Mikewww]

I recently did another search through FTDNA projects and downloaded P312 data.

One of the problems we have with SRY2627 folks in our projects is there are very few people from the Pyrenees, particularly Catalonia, which is a frequency hot spot for SRY2627. To remedy that I added about the SRY2627 ht's from the Adams and Lopez-Parra studies in 2008 of Iberia.

That limited things to just 8 common non-multicopy STR's, but here are the sum of the variance numbers:


Germany _______________ 1.9744 _ (N=13)
Iberia exc Pyrenees ___ 1.9536 _ (N=57)
East Europe ___________ 1.7500 _ (N=4)
Aquitaine & Pyrenees __ 1.7404 _ (N=72)
Scandinavia & Benelux _ 1.6333 _ (N=6)
Ireland _______________ 1.4678 _ (N=19)
Scotland ______________ 1.4487 _ (N=13)
France(all) ___________ 1.4354 _ (N=26)
England _______________ 1.0634 _ (N=39)

[A_Wode]

Bump.

Are the Iberes thought to have settled directly onto eastern Spain via the sea, or are they thought to be descended from the spread of a people from further inland? It seems there is contradictory info here if there is some relationship.

Also, with the discovery of additional SNPs, it looks like modern Iberians (, not necessarily the Iberian culture) were populated predominantly - from the male side at least, via a population north of the Pyrenees.

[Jean M]

That's right - expose my silly idea about  R-SRY2627 / M167! I take it all back!

This ancient thread has been bumped because of an exciting press release. See Extraordinary fortified city c 2200 BC found in SE Spain.

Having looked further into the evidence, it seems that the Iberes were first noticed in the South-East of Iberia and there is no reason to think their homeland was in Catalonia. Hecataeus of Miletus encountered the Iberes c. 500 BC in the Contestania. They seem to have spread along the coast from there later. By 420 BC the Iberes were envisaged along the whole Mediterranean coast of what is now Spain and had spread into southern France, mingling with Ligurians as far as the Rhone.    

[Arch Y.]

Interesting that Contestania is part of the Catalan speaking regions of Spain.

Arch

[Arch Y.]

Just looking at my ancestry composition at 23andMe and here are the results:

99.7% - Northern European
9.4% - British and Irish
1.4% - Scandinavian
0.6% - French and German
0.2% - Finnish
55.0% - Non-Specific Northern European
6.8% - Eastern European
3.1% - Southern European
1.6% - Balkan
0.2% - Sardinian
1.3% - Non-Specific Southern European
0.3% - Ashkenazi
22.9% - Non-Specific European
<0.1% - South Asian
0.3% - Unassigned
0.0% - Middle Eastern and African
0.0% - Sub-Saharan
0.0% - East Asian and Native American
0.0% - Oceania
0.3% - Unassigned

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%.  So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

Arch
 

[glentane]

And I sincerely hope they don't have too much to do with The Other Iberians known to classical Greece and Rome, or I shall go quite mad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
Here they are on a map. Next to The Other Albania (not to be confused the British and Latin Albas :P).
Slap  in the middle of the Mother of Incomprehensible Languages. And metalworking. And possibly even chariots, bagpipes and wool tartan, and other good things. Just north of the highland Anatolian zone of cist-burial which spread somehow to western Anatolia, which as we all know fairly seethes with R1b diversity. Just along the coast from early coppermining near Tarsus, (sneaky edit: I meant tin, at Kestel/Göltepe), and the La Bastida de Totana-type walls of, for example, Byblos, and possibly the SE quadrant of the acropolis of Troy II (like this)

Could somebody cleverer than me kill the monster which is beginning to haunt my dreams, and tell me straight up that the possibility does not exist? Please .. <uncorks bottle of single malt, throws away cork,  and lights Capstan Full-Strength>

[samIsaack]

Just looking at my ancestry composition at 23andMe and here are the results:

99.7% - Northern European
9.4% - British and Irish
1.4% - Scandinavian
0.6% - French and German
0.2% - Finnish
55.0% - Non-Specific Northern European
6.8% - Eastern European
3.1% - Southern European
1.6% - Balkan
0.2% - Sardinian
1.3% - Non-Specific Southern European
0.3% - Ashkenazi
22.9% - Non-Specific European
<0.1% - South Asian
0.3% - Unassigned
0.0% - Middle Eastern and African
0.0% - Sub-Saharan
0.0% - East Asian and Native American
0.0% - Oceania
0.3% - Unassigned

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%.  So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

Arch
 

My "cousin" with whom I share the same y-line descendancy is strikingly similar to your composition. Though his is British/Irish is a tad higher at around 16 percent. I too am at a loss with regards to continental origins.

My Y-line, which I thought I had finally pinned down, has changed once again! I was working with a theory that we were of possible Saxon descent by way of Kent. That ended up falling through. However, where one door closed another one opened.

I traced it back even further to Winkleigh, Devon and have finally made a legit connection to the homeland.. aka Devon. I've been researching mid to north-devon which is the quote, unquote Isaac family homeland.. and it seems the further back I trace it, the further North I end up..

Currently the two major areas of high frequency for my surname are North Devon and South Wales. SO, I'm beginning to look at the possibility of an Ultimately Welsh origin for my y-line. 

[MostDK]

And I sincerely hope they don't have too much to do with The Other Iberians known to classical Greece and Rome, or I shall go quite mad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
Here they are on a map. Next to The Other Albania (not to be confused the British and Latin Albas :P).
Slap  in the middle of the Mother of Incomprehensible Languages. And metalworking. And possibly even chariots, bagpipes and wool tartan, and other good things. Just north of the highland Anatolian zone of cist-burial which spread somehow to western Anatolia, which as we all know fairly seethes with R1b diversity. Just along the coast from early coppermining near Tarsus, (sneaky edit: I meant tin, at Kestel/Göltepe), and the La Bastida de Totana-type walls of, for example, Byblos, and possibly the SE quadrant of the acropolis of Troy II (like this)

Could somebody cleverer than me kill the monster which is beginning to haunt my dreams, and tell me straight up that the possibility does not exist? Please .. <uncorks bottle of single malt, throws away cork,  and lights Capstan Full-Strength>

In fact, it says nothing about whether Gog descended from Magog, but simply that Gog reigns in an area inhabited by descendants of Magog. Or an area where they have been living. North of Israel, so it must be the European continent. I think, however, that our Lord before this have warned the dignified.


Regards, Morten

[Arch Y.]

Just looking at my ancestry composition at 23andMe and here are the results:

99.7% - Northern European
9.4% - British and Irish
1.4% - Scandinavian
0.6% - French and German
0.2% - Finnish
55.0% - Non-Specific Northern European
6.8% - Eastern European
3.1% - Southern European
1.6% - Balkan
0.2% - Sardinian
1.3% - Non-Specific Southern European
0.3% - Ashkenazi
22.9% - Non-Specific European
<0.1% - South Asian
0.3% - Unassigned
0.0% - Middle Eastern and African
0.0% - Sub-Saharan
0.0% - East Asian and Native American
0.0% - Oceania
0.3% - Unassigned

So now where do I find my ancestry? It seems like 9.4% is pretty low for Britain and Ireland but its the highest percentage. France and Germany drops significantly to 0.6%, while Scandinavia is 1.4%.  So much for going south to France or Catalonia, where are the SRY2627 people seem to be. This only leaves me Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg as candidates (they are also not listed). Also, presuming that Belgium and Luxembourg would be in that French and German category as well Holland in the Germany category I wonder if they are a part of the French-German estimation. Then it only leaves me Switzerland and Austria. Italy, Spain, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and Portugal are out of the question since its considered southern Europe and I only have 3.1%, albeit it is higher than Scandinavian and back south I go (but to where?). My Eastern European composition overall is 6.8% and so there's a big jump to Poland, Czech Republic and Slovakia, perhaps Romania but the percentages dwindle to 1.6% for the Balkans. So Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, etc are out of the question. So I would guess Austria, Hungary, or Switzerland would be more in line of my origins? I'm not sure how to interpret the percentages.

Arch
 

My "cousin" with whom I share the same y-line descendancy is strikingly similar to your composition. Though his is British/Irish is a tad higher at around 16 percent. I too am at a loss with regards to continental origins.

My Y-line, which I thought I had finally pinned down, has changed once again! I was working with a theory that we were of possible Saxon descent by way of Kent. That ended up falling through. However, where one door closed another one opened.

I traced it back even further to Winkleigh, Devon and have finally made a legit connection to the homeland.. aka Devon. I've been researching mid to north-devon which is the quote, unquote Isaac family homeland.. and it seems the further back I trace it, the further North I end up..

Currently the two major areas of high frequency for my surname are North Devon and South Wales. SO, I'm beginning to look at the possibility of an Ultimately Welsh origin for my y-line. 

When I look at my Y-DNA percentages and matches, I come up mostly with Wales (5.9%) Northern Ireland (4.9%), Scotland (4.9%), France (4.8%), Spain (4%), England (3.6%), Belgium (3.5%), Ireland (3.3%),Netherlands (3.2%), Portugal (2.9%), Switzerland (2.4%), Germany (2.3%),Denmark (2.0%),Italy (1.7%), Norway (1.4%), Austria (1.3%), Sweden (1.1%), Croatia (.9%),Czech Republic (.7%), Hungary (.7%), Romania (.5%),Finland (.4%), Slovakia (.4%),Poland (.3%), and it's pretty much pointless below Poland.

Granted this is at 12 markers but I have no matches higher than 12. Wales seems like a good candidate. Now which side, north or south? I would say north given the percentages of Northern Ireland and Scotland, but what gives with France?

Arch