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Author Topic: What do non-R-M269 people think of R-M269?  (Read 3434 times)
rms2
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2010, 11:25:35 PM »

RE S116/P312: You and I may see it that way, but I can think of at least one person who still does not see it that way. I could be wrong, but I think he would insist on making a distinction between the U152 "true Celts" and the L21 British Isles celticized aborigines.

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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2010, 11:12:13 PM »

... The sequence L11-U106/S116-U152/L21 is far too rapid in terms of variance dating for there to have been any real difference in language either.  

People often ask 'who were the Celts?'.  In genetic terms I think we can be fairly sure that I clades do not represent the kind of wave-like and relatively recent structure that could possibly explain the spread of the language.  Similarly, R1a cannot be a realistic common denominator for the Celts.  It really has to be something to do with the R1b1b2.  I really cannot see any other alternative.        
I agree, the frequency of R-L11, specifically, has such a high correlation with Celtic areas that I can not get my head to understand how R-L11 adopted IE languages from R1a peoples.
Quote from: Anotole K on Rootsweb
DNA genealogy and linguistic can be compatible in the following: R1a spread Indo-European language(s)/dialects in Europe and from Europe before and after 6000 ybp, R1a1 brought IE languages to "Russia" from the West, R1a1 brought IE language to "India" (3500 ybp), to "Iran" (3500 ybp), to the Caucasus (4500 ybp), to Anatolia (around 4200-3600 ybp). Unlike R1a1, R1b1b2 spoke non-IE language(s) 6000 ybp and earlier, they spoke non-IE languages in Anatolia and in Asia Minor in general, they brought non-IE language to Iberia, and the Basque language is the present continuation of that R1b1b2 language, and R1b1b2 brought those non-IE languages to Europe and spread them across Europe and to the Isles between 4800 and 3200-3000 ybp, and in some regions much later. Around 3000 ybp R1b1 began use IE language, and it spread across Europe in the 1st millennium BC and the 1st millennium AD, thank to Roman Empire influence and vastness.
Anatole does see R-P312 spreading with the Bell Beaker folks so P312 was already widespread well before his view of the spread of the Celtic language. His view of Celtic fits more with Halstatt and La Tene era rather than Koch's recent proposals.

When you look at R1a's presence in places like France, R1a hardly shows up. See Ramos-Luis table of Hg frequencies:
http://tiny.cc/yozud
It's just hard to understand how so few R1a's linguistically converted so many R-L11's spread across Western Europe.


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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2010, 11:22:54 PM »

RE S116/P312: You and I may see it that way, but I can think of at least one person who still does not see it that way. I could be wrong, but I think he would insist on making a distinction between the U152 "true Celts" and the L21 British Isles celticized aborigines.
I don't hear much argument on that any more. U152 is as old as P312 and L21 is almost as old as U152. The diversity numbers are clearly demonstrating this.

To boot, U106 and P312 and their parent, L11 are all about the same TMRCA. U106's subclade, U198, is also about the same.  So is U152's subclade, L2.

These subclades of R-L11 all started expanding quickly at about the same time. There is too much deep clade and long haplotype data available now to dispute this effectively.

The implication is they are all basically the same people, the same tribe and of close geography at the time their expansions began. It's hard to see how they wouldn't be speaking some early branch of PIE. Their ultimate distribution correlates quite closely with IE Centum languages.

However, I am open to possibilities on what language they were speaking as I do think the existence Euskura (Basque) in an R-M269 group is a counter-point.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 11:26:26 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2010, 02:17:49 AM »

I agree, the frequency of R-L11, specifically, has such a high correlation with Celtic areas that I can not get my head to understand how R-L11 adopted IE languages from R1a peoples.
Quote from: Anotole K on Rootsweb
DNA genealogy and linguistic can be compatible in the following: R1a spread Indo-European language(s)/dialects in Europe and from Europe before and after 6000 ybp, R1a1 brought IE languages to "Russia" from the West, R1a1 brought IE language to "India" (3500 ybp), to "Iran" (3500 ybp), to the Caucasus (4500 ybp), to Anatolia (around 4200-3600 ybp). Unlike R1a1, R1b1b2 spoke non-IE language(s) 6000 ybp and earlier, they spoke non-IE languages in Anatolia and in Asia Minor in general, they brought non-IE language to Iberia, and the Basque language is the present continuation of that R1b1b2 language, and R1b1b2 brought those non-IE languages to Europe and spread them across Europe and to the Isles between 4800 and 3200-3000 ybp, and in some regions much later. Around 3000 ybp R1b1 began use IE language, and it spread across Europe in the 1st millennium BC and the 1st millennium AD, thank to Roman Empire influence and vastness.
Anatole does see R-P312 spreading with the Bell Beaker folks so P312 was already widespread well before his view of the spread of the Celtic language. His view of Celtic fits more with Halstatt and La Tene era rather than Koch's recent proposals.

When you look at R1a's presence in places like France, R1a hardly shows up. See Ramos-Luis table of Hg frequencies:
http://tiny.cc/yozud
It's just hard to understand how so few R1a's linguistically converted so many R-L11's spread across Western Europe.

I don't think they did.  I also have a difficult time with R1b switching to IE in the 1st millenium BC or later.  Especially,  if non- IE P312 had already been established in Iberia for 2000 years.  Here are a few points that work against that model.

1) The Balaresque and Myres' studies do not show a consistent trail of R1b across the Med. leading up to P312 in Iberia.  Instead, the R1b "trail" moves across the center of Europe with all subclades present. The founder effect of L11+ starts somewhere in east or central Europe, not the Balkans, Iberia, or Italy.
2)  Most Basques are of the P312+ variety.  If they were descended from Bell-Beakers, I think we would see a more consistent stream of upstream R1b that also arrived there from points east along the Mediterranean and North Africa.  
3) The dental characteristics of the Iberian and Czech Bell-beaker peoples suggest native populations.  They could have been I2, E, G2a3, etc. for all we know.  The Bell Beakers of France, Switzerland, and Hungary suggested intrusive populations.  This is much more in line with the Myres' study.
4) P312 variance is higher in France than Iberia last time I looked.

Mike
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2010, 09:59:30 AM »

... When you look at R1a's presence in places like France, R1a hardly shows up. See Ramos-Luis table of Hg frequencies:
http://tiny.cc/yozud
It's just hard to understand how so few R1a's linguistically converted so many R-L11's spread across Western Europe.

I don't think they did.  I also have a difficult time with R1b switching to IE in the 1st millenium BC or later.  Especially,  if non- IE P312 had already been established in Iberia for 2000 years.  Here are a few points that work against that model.

1) The Balaresque and Myres' studies do not show a consistent trail of R1b across the Med. leading up to P312 in Iberia.  Instead, the R1b "trail" moves across the center of Europe with all subclades present. The founder effect of L11+ starts somewhere in east or central Europe, not the Balkans, Iberia, or Italy.
.....
4) P312 variance is higher in France than Iberia last time I looked.
I think the same thing when I look at the genetic data even though it is a nice archaeological fit to place P312 coming out of Iberia with known Bell Beakers maritime routes and say all is solved.

I think to your point 4 (higher variance in France) we can add U152's apparent origin outside of Iberia and U152 is as old as P312. I think we can also add that SRY2627 has a probably upstream clade, L176.2, and it is does NOT appear to be from Iberia.
I'm going to look at variance between Iberia and Western Continental Europe in a couple of different formats to see if anything is conclusive.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 10:01:06 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 03:48:01 PM »

In Julian Richards book 'Blood of the Vikings' he states that language is learned from  mother to child he shows an example of  a headstone of a person with a Gealige 1st name and a Scandinavian 2nd name (something like Fiaca Olafson).
He also said that women mved and spread genes more than men who stayed  in place to inherit land. JeanM disagreed with this (or  maybe I've got this out of context)   
If this is true Y-dna would have very little to do with the spread of language.
Richard Rudgly in 'Secrets of the Stone Age' placed the Gradmother idea as  highly significant. The idea is that grandmothers did the 'day care'hence teaching them language  while mothers were freed to gather food etc (Grandfathers were acredited as handing down  knowledge to youg males)
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 06:59:06 PM »

In Julian Richards book 'Blood of the Vikings' he states that language is learned from  mother to child he shows an example of  a headstone of a person with a Gealige 1st name and a Scandinavian 2nd name (something like Fiaca Olafson).
He also said that women mved and spread genes more than men who stayed  in place to inherit land. JeanM disagreed with this (or  maybe I've got this out of context)   
If this is true Y-dna would have very little to do with the spread of language.
Richard Rudgly in 'Secrets of the Stone Age' placed the Gradmother idea as  highly significant. The idea is that grandmothers did the 'day care'hence teaching them language  while mothers were freed to gather food etc (Grandfathers were acredited as handing down  knowledge to youg males)
That doesn't seem to fit with what we are seeing as far as the spread of Y DNA and languages.  Coincidence or not, there is a powerful correlation between R1b and Centum IE Languages as well as R1a and Satem IE languages. I recommend you do a little research on the internet and the look at the frequency maps for R1b, R1a and proposed expansions of Indo-European lanaguages.
As far as mobility, I see males as being the more common early explorers, prospectors, military invasion force members, etc.
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 09:06:29 PM »

What is Celtic Blood?
Would that include people who are M269+ ?

If some Greenland Vikings were M269 could some Normans also be M269+ ?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts

Perhaps there was a back migration of some M269+
Or maybe they were referring to R1a?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 09:09:53 PM by OConnor » Logged

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A.D.
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 04:00:49 PM »

In Julian Richards book 'Blood of the Vikings' he states that language is learned from  mother to child he shows an example of  a headstone of a person with a Gealige 1st name and a Scandinavian 2nd name (something like Fiaca Olafson).
He also said that women mved and spread genes more than men who stayed  in place to inherit land. JeanM disagreed with this (or  maybe I've got this out of context)   
If this is true Y-dna would have very little to do with the spread of language.
Richard Rudgly in 'Secrets of the Stone Age' placed the Gradmother idea as  highly significant. The idea is that grandmothers did the 'day care'hence teaching them language  while mothers were freed to gather food etc (Grandfathers were acredited as handing down  knowledge to youg males)
That doesn't seem to fit with what we are seeing as far as the spread of Y DNA and languages.  Coincidence or not, there is a powerful correlation between R1b and Centum IE Languages as well as R1a and Satem IE languages. I recommend you do a little research on the internet and the look at the frequency maps for R1b, R1a and proposed expansions of Indo-European lanaguages.
As far as mobility, I see males as being the more common early explorers, prospectors, military invasion force members, etc.
I personally think people mixed, interbreed etc as much as they saw fit at any given at time in any given place with as much or as little regard for culture, race or what ever as they could get away with or wanted to. I think dna will only show us how prolific x line was and to a certain degree when and where.(in which culture prevailed at the time. I think you said as much or similar on another thread. Obviously this was subject many conditions of which many we're not sure about as yet. One thing has never changed and that's human nature. People want to belong and yet be individual etc If a guy with a so called 'Celtic hg married or moved to a German area his kids are more likely to be more 'German' than the 'Germans' who were probably becoming more celtic influence due to proximity and vica-versa. It'a rather crudly put but I hope you get the idea.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 06:48:21 PM »

What is Celtic Blood?
Would that include people who are M269+ ?
If some Greenland Vikings were M269 could some Normans also be M269+ ?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2478281/posts
Perhaps there was a back migration of some M269+
Or maybe they were referring to R1a?
Does anyone have Y DNA data for Greenland? Is it considered completely settled by Vikings?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 07:30:20 PM »

Am fairly sure the Norse population of Greenland totally died out in the Medieval period.  I think the people now are mainly Inuit or Inuit with a dash of more recent Danish blood. 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 07:41:28 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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