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Author Topic: was ore directly linked to where and when L11 clades expanded.  (Read 794 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: December 11, 2010, 07:08:38 PM »

I think it is interesting to look at clades and even paragroups and look at both their distribution and how they prospered at face value and only then look back to the archaeology.  There are a few observations that simple observation of the phylogeny and the distribution may tell us

There is a period between L11 and U152 in which two things are worth noting. 

1 L11* did not prosper
2. L11* seems to have a north/eastern distribution than many would have expected. 

Is this a hint that L11* or part of it took a northern route and fell on fallow ground geographically for some time.  Arguably it was only under U106 that L11 prospered in the northern route, especially some distance further west.

Did L11* probe various areas before finding fertile ground for expansion.  It is also true that 'true' S116* should have been expected to have passed somewhere between L11* point of expansion (modest though it is) and U152*'s expansion point in the Alpine area.  However, it seems that S116*, like L11* did not prosper in the expected position (between L11* and U152* hotspots) and does not conform to a wave-like model. 

It actually seems to me that L11 only really first underwent a huge expansion when the U152* seems to have found fertile ground.  Certainly the MRCA dates do suggest U152 is the older brother of L21 and therefore when it found fertile ground would have been unchallenged for a few generations at least. 

So, if L11* did take a more northerly route from eastern Europe why did it not find fertile ground?

Why is there no S116* block of strength between the L11* and U152* areas? 

Why did L11 not first hugely expand until it did under U152?

Why did U152 expand where it did?

Why did L21 expand in north/west France and the isles?

Is it possible that in the period between L11 and U152 SNPs that L11 lines, including 'true' S116* lines were in competition with others in their geographically chosen areas.  L11*.  Or perhaps they didnt find what they were looking for where they first looked.  Was that possibly metals?  Perhaps the initial exploring of Europe by L11 was by people who wanted copper and other deposits and the north-east European route was a failure due to a lack of ore.  Perhaps the huge expansion of U152 in the Alpine zone was because they were the first L11 lines that entered into a metal rich area.  U152 of course seems to be almost as old as S116 and crucially it is older than L21, the older brother if you like.  That means that in the Alpine zone and adjacent it had a period of unchallenged hegemony for ???a few centuries.  When I say Alpine zone I am not going to commit to which side of the Alps (Italy or the north side). 

The idea that L11's early raison d'etre was metal and vital to its acceptance by the locals and subsequent expansion in any area does seem to be a model worth exploring. 

I would perhaps further add that U152 and some other true S116* lines may have probed further until perhaps a lack of results may have slowed them down.  Somewhere one of those S116* lines may have kept going when the U152 ones had essentially given up due to the gap between the Alpine metal sources and those around the Atlantic.  A few stray S116* groups may have continued on until they discovered further metal sources around the Atlantic fringe of Europe.  Perhaps then slightly beleagered non-U152 S116* lineages reached the Atlantic ore sources around Iberia and underwent an expansion there. 

The next stepping stone could have been when some S116* groups, either from Iberia or by crossing France from the east, reached the further sources of ore in Atlantic/NW France.  Perhaps that is where L21 expanded significantly.  I think it is still impossible to know if L21* occurred among S116* groups who had come by Spain or from the east but of the model of metal ore=clade expansion is correct, I strongly suspect it expanded in Atlantic France where there are ore sources and so on.  It is interesting that the archaeologist Humphrey Case who wrote probably the most detailed analysis of Irish Beaker culture suggests Atlantic France as the origin of Irish beaker culture.  There are other reasons for suspecting this origin relating to metal working and burial practices. 

This model does not rule out other groups who were not near ore sources prospering from control of nodal points as middle men etc. The stonehenge  beaker element may have been controlling a crucial nodal point between the metal sources in the west and the east of Britain and NW continent. 

Of course this model may not work out when all clades are thought through OR it may not be entirely compatible with the archaeological record (although the beakers do feel like a very strong candidate for the smoking gun).  In this model for example U106 needs accounted for.  Interestingly, its distribution is somewhat more northerly which does seem to may it feel a little like it was on the same trail as L11*.  Difference is it does seem to have prospered hugely in some areas.  Did it reach and control a major non-ore source nodal points in the trade network along the Rhine, especially the Lower Rhine and adjacent areas to the east?

Certainly I am wondering if L11* initially headed from eastern Europe north and west by riverine roots.  Perhaps it didnt prosper until U106 underwent major expansion on the Lower Rhine and perhaps other spots.  Other L11* had a period of poor to middling fortune as did S116* before the U152 branch had the fortune of discovering the Alpine area with its metal sources (but which side?). Some S116* perhaps rode out a long period of disappointment and non-expansion between the Alps and Atlantic Iberia where they discovered the sources there and hugely expanded.  L21 didnt exist at the time when U152 may have picked up the Alpine ore sources.  However, it was the major beneficiary when the ores of Atlantic France and the isles were reached. 

This is a very rough model that has not been totally thought through but it makes sense to me.  The basis is that the L11 groups were all about metal working and that as a small minority with no overwhelming military advantage they needed acceptance and that that acceptance was down to the beaker 'clans' being experts at metal and trading of it.  If they didnt find ores or nodal points in trading it as middle men then they would offer the locals nothing.  In this model the expansion would be Trojan Horse-like when in later generations their prestige and power came to overshadow their native hosts. i wont try to match it to the archaeology in any detail just yet but it does not seen to be incompatible with the copper age and beaker expansions.  The difference between this model and others is that it is suggesting that the link between control of metals and its trade and clade expansion in any given area is very close.   No ore souces/no trade control=far less expansion of the lineages. 

NB-once established in some core areas these lineages potentially had 1500-2500 years to expand into the hinterland beyond judging by how long western Europe was controlled by these Copper and Bronze Age elites whose prestige seems to have owed a lot to metalwork. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 07:13:44 PM »

Of course the idea that some L11* and perhaps S116* explored the north and east of Europe while other L11* and S116* moved along through central and perhaps Mediterranean Europe does make one wonder again where the common point of origin may have been.  To access rivers flowing north (north of the Carpathians) from eastern Europe, as well as central Europe through the Danube and perhaps Med. Europe would to me seem point to somewhere like Ukraine, Moldova or eastern Romania. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 08:49:52 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2010, 12:29:46 AM »

Of course the idea that some L11* and perhaps S116* explored the north and east of Europe while other L11* and S116* moved along through central and perhaps Mediterranean Europe does make one wonder again where the common point of origin may have been.  To access rivers flowing north (north of the Carpathians) from eastern Europe, as well as central Europe through the Danube and perhaps Med. Europe would to me seem point to somewhere like Ukraine, Moldova or eastern Romania.  
Right, I don't see any good points where both U106 and P312 expanded from that are close to each other in Western Europe. Given the overall M269 east to west movement, my inclination is to keep pushing east to find the point where U106, P312 and L11* might have intersected.

I think a clue is that U106's modal is closest to P312's (and WAMH) in NE Europe. Variance for U106 is also high there.

For some P312 to reach the Alpine region (with perhaps some U106 with it) and for U106 to along the Baltic... I think the common point is either Hungary, or the other (east) side of the Carpathians... Moldova or Romania or adjacent to them, the Ukraine.

http://goeasteurope.about.com/od/introtoeasteuropetravel/ig/Maps-of-Eastern-Europe/Map-of-Eastern-Europe.htm

I think the common point could have been either side of the Carpathians, but if it was east (Moldova, E. Romania, Ukraine) then this seems to magically overlays Yamnaya migrations and David Anthony's proposals on the spread of IE languages.

How easy or natural for is it a group to come out of Hungary, then head north and west around the Carpathians and then straight north and northeast to the Baltic?  
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Countries.htm
To me, this seems to cut a cross the river valleys.

On the other hand, a path starting from east of the Carpathians (i.e Ukraine) and heading northwest to the Baltic Sea would be a natural following of the river system from Black/Caspian draining rivers over to Baltic draining rivers.

I do think these people were mineral hungry tool makers (technologists.) I guess it only makes sense that thousands of years later we are the same.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:39:29 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2010, 07:44:39 AM »

Mike=I really went for exactly the same location as you for L11* based on the idea that it was a point where one could more easily spread west both north and south of the Carpathians and to be honest that is based o the simplest glance at a map - it might be naive though as my grasp of the geography of the area is elementary.  Also, maybe I amm wrong in seeing the Carpathians as a barrier.  I am fairly sure they are ore rich too.

I know that the idea that L11 or S116 may relate to beakers  and that beakers are associated with metalwork is not new.  However, if they really were a smallish group who did 'infilling' settlement among Neolithic natives because they were seen (initially) as beneficial, then how much they succeeded may have a close correlation with metal sources and crucial nodal points between such sources.  I think its fair to say in north-west Europe that there were crucial nodal points along the Rhine, Danube, Atlantic Iberia, southern France, NW France, SW Ireland, SW England, Wales etc.  These are all areas with high L11 counts now.  

L11* interests me.  I recall a map of this but cannot remember where i saw it.  Can anyone remember/post a link?  It looked rather like a movement north of the Carpathians from eastern Europe northwards.  The question is was that THE route L11* took in its early days or is it just one of its routes?  If there were several routes why are they not indicated by the L11* distribution?  One thing I think is fair to say is that while M269 as a whole looks wave-like, I think L11*, S116* do not have that wave like geography with geography matching phylogeny. or at least their impact seems small and lacks the progressive east-west pattern that the overall phylogeny of M269 seems to have .  It is like between L11 and U152 SNPs there was a period of non-wave-like movement.    I am not sure that was a long period but it is interesting nevertheless that the lack of impact of L11* and the lack of expected patterning in S116* suggests heavy extension of lineages or some kind of struggle.

It seems that it is only with U152 and then sometime later with L21 that the S116 lineages took of.  Certainly there is no neat L11-S116/U106-U153/L21 wave-like pattern. Its also interesting that some lineages seem to have only really taken off when reaching Iberia, a long journey of less success in between.   Again, there is no neat wave-like pattern where degrees west corresponds with progressively downstream clades.  So perhaps the frustration that there almost seems to be a missing link between L11 and U152/L21 SNPs which should be represented by L11* and S116* in central Europe is down to some real phenomenon relating to early failure or lack of opportunities.  

The failure of L11* and S116* to hugely prosper in central Europe is one thing and the huge expansion of U152 and L21 is another thing needing explanation.  It is interesting that U152, L21 and the Iberian S116* groups seem to have massively expanded in areas where ores were located (the Alps, NW France/the isles and Iberia respectively).  These area went on to become powerhouses of metalwork production.   Of course the division is not as neat as that but the pattern is there.  However, this is back of an envelope stuff and it needs to be looked at in more detail in terms of the relative ages of metallurgy in each area.  

One L11* group who need to be squeezed into such a model is S116.  They tend to be seen as northerly and some have suggested a Baltic origin.  However, I think its fair to say that their great expansion may have been at the Rhine.  Myres et al seemed to me to indicate that U106 is stronger all along the Rhine than is given credit for.  If I recall correctly too they had a strength on the Upper Danube too.  So, it is possible that they also hit fertile ground along nodal points all along the Rhine, perhaps major middlemen. There superabundance at the Rhine mouth may have seen their entrance into eastern Britain too.  All of this again would not require a huge strain to fit into the beaker model.

Another way of looking at it is where did L11 clades have lesser success?  I think it can be argued that their dominance was not as spectacular in areas without the required early ore sources (copper, tin, gold, lead etc) along the north European plane.  This doesnt mean these areas didnt require metal and a trade network (they clearly did) but perhaps the prestige and power of groups controlling it were diminished where they were really only acting as middlemen.  On the north European lowlands  there is if I recall correctly a lack of such ores.  

« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 07:52:49 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 01:52:22 PM »

Mike-regarding the issue of a route cutting across river valleys, I wouldnt worry about that.  If you look at Linearbandkeramik for example throughout Europe north of the Alps it actually stops short of the mouths of many rivers.  This pattern was continued right into northern France where the upper and mid parts of rivers were settled but the lower parts bordering the channel were not reached.  This pretty well dictates that the settlers of the LBK period crossed the areas between the rivers (intefluves or watersheds).  The same could have happened in later periods too.  Even languages often were different within different reaches of a river with the similarly of a given stretch of a river being with another river rather than another stretch of their own river. 

I am probably rambling a bit but I suppose the unexpected northerly trajectory and poor showing of L11* and the lack of a obvious S116* 'clock' between L11* and U152 etc is telling us something.  The simplest way of interpreting that is that L11 as a whole did not d especially well until the expansion of U152, U106 and a little later other S116 clades like L21.  The real question is why?  I have suggested that ore and its control might be one reason.  Another possibility that strikes me is did L11 tend to do best where the preceding Neolithic settlement had been late.  Certainly the Alpine areas (both sides), Holland, NW France (and indeed a lot of  France), much of Iberia, Britain, Ireland and the north European plain were areas not along the path of the major early Neolithic thrusts of LBK and Cardial and had only been settled 1000 years later in the middle Neolithic after a long hiatus in the spread. 
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A.D.
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« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 08:51:21 AM »

I don't know how relevant it is but wasn't  the 'king of stone henge' a metal worker from Switzerland and the rest (or their Ancestors) of the population from Wales. It was suggested that these metal workers could sell their magic to anyone (community)who didn't have in. They would automatically assume high status and their families have a better chance to prosper.
The point being that their dispersion could be far greater than we'd expect from normal migration. This could  appear as smallclusters at the Time but with the spead the knowledge or the replacement of older with new metals (copper-bronze/bronze-iron) dispersed leaving a more typical look to us.
Just a thought. 
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A.D.
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 08:59:17 AM »

Another thought if these metal workers took up mresidence amongst 'other' cultures they might not leave an archealogical trace other than their metalwork and dna, every thing else could have been provided for them
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