World Families Forums - Lebar Gabála Érenn

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 20, 2014, 09:49:06 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Lebar Gabála Érenn
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Lebar Gabála Érenn  (Read 2987 times)
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« on: October 31, 2010, 11:19:07 AM »

The "Lebar Gabála Érenn" is a celtic myth about the origine of Gaels. That's what I found about it in the book of John Koch: "Celtic cultre a historical encyclopedia":

Quote
Lebar Gabála Érenn (‘The Book of the Takings
of Ireland’, often called ‘The Book of Invasions’) is
a Middle Irish text, probably first composed in the
later 11th century. It details a series of prehistoric
invasions of Ireland (Ériu) and the legendary history
of the Gaels (the ethno-linguistic Irish) from
times corresponding to the biblical Genesis down to
their taking possession of Ireland under the leadership
of the sons of Míl Espáine.
...
Lebar Gabála begins with the biblical story of the
Creation, and discusses Noah’s descendants with particular
attention to Japheth’s progeny and the peopling
of Europe. We are told how Fénius came to Babel and
invented the bélra Féne (that is, ‘the speech of the Irish’
or Gaelic). His son Nél went to Egypt and married
Scota, the Pharaoh’s daughter, who bore Goídel Glas,
the eponymous ancestor of the Gaels. Following the
flight of the Israelites, Goídel’s descendants returned
to Scythia, where they spent generations struggling
against the heirs of Nél’s elder brother, Noenual. At
length, the Gaels were driven out, and wandered for
many years: they were menaced by the singing of a siren,
and visited the famous Rhipaean mountains in Thrace
(these legendary mountains are located at various
extreme points; here, they may be identified with the
Rhodope mountains). After that, they settled for a
while in the Maeotic marshes of Scythia, and at last
sailed the length of the Mediterranean and conquered
Spain.
Here, Bregon built the city of Brigantia and a
tower from whose top his son Íth glimpsed Ireland.
...
At last, the narrative returns to Spain and the Gaels.
We are told how Íth journeyed to Ireland, where he
was killed by the jealous Tuath Dé; his nephews, the
sons of Míl, led an expedition to avenge him. After
conversations with the island’s three eponymous goddesses,
they confronted the three kings at Tara.
Amairgen mac Míled, their chief poet, was called
upon to judge between them, and said that his own
people should go nine waves’ distance back out to sea
and then try to land again. With a poem he calmed the
magical storm with which the Tuath Dé attempted to
prevent this second landing:
I invoke the land of Ireland:
surging is the mighty sea,
mighty is the upland full of meadows,
full of meadows is the rainy wood,
rainy is the river full of waterfalls,
full of waterfalls is the spreading lake,
spreading is the spring of multitudes,
a spring of peoples is the assembly,
the assembly of the king of Teamhair.
Teamhair is a tower of tribes,
the tribes of the sons of Míl . . .
The Gaels then gained the mastery of Ireland.

This myth tell us clearly that Gaels ancestors first came from Scythia to Spain by boat, then from Spain to Ireland. I think we can associate these Gaels ancestors with Bell Beakers whose culture spread from Spain to Occidental Europe in third millenium BC.

Moreover, it is clear that celts are associated with R1b-L21 haplgroup. I think we can associate Bell beakers with R1b-P312 haplogroup. These Bell Beakers spoke probably a proto italo celtic language. R1b-U152 can be associated with italics.
So the Lebar Gabála Érenn give us a track about R1b travel from Black Sea shores to Spain in third millenium and then the spread to Occidental Europe.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 11:24:17 AM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 04:11:29 AM »

(Wiki)
Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) is the Middle Irish title of a loose collection of poems and prose narratives recounting the mythical origins and history of the Irish race from the creation of the world down to the Middle Ages. An important record of the folkloric history of Ireland, it was compiled and edited by an anonymous scholar in the 11th century, and might be described as a mélange of mythology, legend, history, folklore and Christian historiography. It is usually known in English as The Book of Invasions or The Book of Conquests, and in Modern Irish as Leabhar Gabhála Éireann or Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


I don't know how reliable the stories are.
One question that comes to mind..can Ireland be seen from Spain?




Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 04:14:58 AM »

The myth tells us that Gaels came from Maeotian marshes. These marshes lay where the Don River emptied into the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) near Tanais: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maeotian_marshes
This location is just north of Maykop.

You can see the myth from the book of John Koch: "Celtic cultre a historical encyclopedia" on the following link http://secher.bernard.free.fr/Articles/LebarGabalaErenn.pdf
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:15:59 AM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 04:35:00 AM »

One question that comes to mind..can Ireland be seen from Spain?
There is an archeologic culture which spread from Spain to Occidental Europe, therefore to Ireland: Bell Beaker culture.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 04:35:55 AM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 08:10:10 AM »

The Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mish-mash concocted thousands of years after Bell Beaker folk arrived in Ireland, and cannot reflect any ancient legend. The Ancient Greeks and Romans never heard any such story about the Celts of Britain. I discuss it in Origin Stories:

The Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) has fascinated generations. [1] Compiled in the late 11th century, it tells a stirring story of invaders battling for Ireland. Like Geoffrey of Monmouth's fanciful 12th-century History of the Kings of Britain, with its tales of Arthur, it was accepted for centuries as an accurate history. Yet both have only legend and supposition to offer where they try to cover prehistory. So why would either book be taken seriously in today's more critical world? Within academia they are not. R. A. Stewart Macalister, who translated the Lebor Gabála Érenn into English, declared: "There is not a single element of genuine historical detail, in the strict sense of the word, anywhere in the whole compilation."[2]

Yet there is that tantalising hope of some scrap to bridge the yawning gap in our knowledge. Celtic scholar Thomas Francis O'Rahilly (1883–1953) postulated four waves of invaders into Ireland, based partly on his interpretation of the Lebor Gabála Érenn.[3] The fourth and final invasion, he thought, brought the Gaelic-speakers. Thus far he follows the Lebor Gabála Érenn. But while O'Rahilly thought the Gaels came from southwest Gaul (now France), the 11th-century story tells of the final conquest of Ireland from Iberia by the Milesians, or sons of Míl Espáine. The Milesians are painted as the descendants of a Scythian prince called Fénius Farsaid, whose grandson created the Irish language. His descendants wandered the world for 440 years before settling in the Iberian peninsula, the story goes. One of his descendants supposedly saw Ireland from the top of Breogan’s Tower, in Brigantia, in far-off Spain and set off towards it with thrice thirty warriors.

The myth was boosted by early genetic studies, which found high levels of Y-DNA R1b in both countries. It was later realised that R1b dominates the whole of Western Europe. Worse still for the romantic image of Míl Espáine was the discovery that the subclade of R1b overwhelming common in Ireland (L21) was also common in Britain and France, but extremely rare in Iberia. (See Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics). Nor do the Irish cluster close to Iberians in studies of a much wider range of genetic markers. Instead they overlap with their nearest neighbours, the British.[4] One such study concentrating on the British Isles found that Dubliners had a vanishingly small Iberian element, less than that in people from south-east England.[5]

So whatever the Milesian myth is telling us, it is not the true story of the birth of a nation. The tale attempts to fit the Gaels into a biblical setting. Iafeth [Japheth] is pictured as the patriarch of the nations of "Asia Minor, Armenia, Media, the People of Scythia; and of him are the inhabitants of all Europe." This was standard thinking for Christian writers of the time, following the Jewish historian Josephus (37-c.100 AD) and Isidore of Seville (c.560-635). Increasingly complex genealogies from Noah were created.[6] It also borrows from the early Christian writer Orosius. It was he who claimed that from the southern promontory of Ireland one could see far-off Brigantia, a city of Gallaecia (North-West Spain),[7] which the Irish of the area well knew to be nonsense.
 
Míl Espáine himself is simply an Irish version of the Latin miles Hispaniae (soldier of Spain). The earliest surviving version of the tale appears in the 8th-century Historia Brittonum. It simply claims that three sons of a Spanish soldier arrived in Ireland with thirty ships. A mass of fake genealogy was grafted onto the scheme. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn his sons Éber and Erimón divide the kingship of Ireland between them. Éber, presented as the founding father of the Eóghanachta, takes the southern half, while Erimón takes the north. This division supplants an earlier concept of Ireland being divided into five parts. So it was probably cooked up in the 8th century AD to give a respectably ancient ancestry to the newly dominant dynasties of the Uí Néill and Eóghanachta, who had risen to prominence in the north and south respectively. (See Celtic Tribes of Ireland.) In short the whole concoction is nothing more than a learned fiction, and does not preserve any genuine Irish traditions.

  • 1. Lebor Gabála Érenn 'The Book of the Taking of Ireland', Irish Texts Society, Vols. 34 (1938), 35 (1939), 39 (1940), 41 (1941) and 44 (1956).
  • 2. R. A. Stewart Macalister (ed.), Lebor Gabála Érenn 'The Book of the Taking of Ireland', Irish Texts Society, Vol. 34 (1938), p. 252.
  • 3. T. F. O'Rahilly, Early Irish History and Mythology (1946).
  • 4. J.Novembre et al., Genes mirror geographywithin Europe, Nature vol. 456 (6 November 2008), pp. 98-101; C.Tian et al, European Population Genetic Substructure: Further definition ofancestry informative markers for distinguishing among diverse European ethnicgroups, Molecular Medicine, online August 24 2009; C. Tian et al., Analysis and Application of European Genetic Substructure Using 300 K SNPInformation, PLoS Genetics, vol. 4, no. 1 (2008):e4.
  • 5. C.T O'Dushlaine et al., Population structure and genome-wide patterns of variation in Ireland and Britain, European Journal of Human Genetics, (advance online publication 23 June 2010).
  • 6. Susan Reynolds, Medieval origines gentium and the community of the realm, History, vol. 68 (1983), pp. 375-90.
  • 7. Paul Orosius : A History Against the Pagans, book 1, section 2, para 80.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:27:13 AM by Jean M » Logged
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 10:02:33 AM »

The Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mish-mash concocted thousands of years after Bell Beaker folk arrived in Ireland, and cannot reflect any ancient legend.
All the Irish mythology was written by christian monks during middle age. Do you think really that Irish mythology is only the result of the imagination of Irish monks ?
Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 11:39:19 AM »

Since writing arrived in Ireland with Christianity, inevitably Irish mythology may have come down to us through a Christian filter. But works such as the stories of the Ulster Cycle are set in an earlier, pagan age. At one time they were uncritically accepted as reflecting pre-Roman Iron Age Ireland in every detail. Now they are more critically evaluated. The versions that were finally committed to writing had probably mutated over the centuries, with some material adjusted to changing political realities. But they still provide one of our best sources for Celtic life-style and religion.

The Lebor Gabála Érenn is something completely different. It is a scholarly attempt to draw together material from Classical, Christian and Irish sources to create a history of Ireland. The Irish sources included genealogies, king-lists and the body of stories. It attempts to date some of the material from the Ulster Cycle, for example.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:42:56 AM by Jean M » Logged
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 12:31:03 PM »

The Lebor Gabála Érenn is something completely different. It is a scholarly attempt to draw together material from Classical, Christian and Irish sources to create a history of Ireland. The Irish sources included genealogies, king-lists and the body of stories. It attempts to date some of the material from the Ulster Cycle, for example.
I agree with you that Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mixed from Classical, Christian and Irish sources. Some details can be clearly assigned to biblical stories. All the difficulty is to find what is from Irish source.
But, beyond this myth, you have some archeological and linguistic clues. For example Bell Beaker culture spread from Iberia to occidental Europe, therefore to Ireland, second, celtiberian and goidelic are both Q-celtic languages.
So, is it wrong that Goidels came from Spain to Ireland, as the story of the sons of Mile  tells us ? I see no Christian purpose, no Classical purpose for this.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:39:06 PM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 12:48:31 PM »

The story of Bell Beaker is complex and confusing. Specialists looking at one part of the evidence often conflict with those looking at another part of the evidence. I have tried to pull it all together in Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics.

The Bell Beaker material and people in the British Isles seem mainly to have come along the Rhine route from central Europe. A much smaller proportion could have come along the Atlantic route. Here's what I say (see the original for references, links and images):
 
Quote
The Celts of the British Isles

The Bell Beaker Culture brought the Bronze Age to the British Isles. To be more exact, Beaker folk initially brought the Copper Age around 2,450 BC, homing in on the copper belts of Ireland and Wales. They left their characteristic beakers at a copper-mine on Ross Island, in Lough Leane, County Kerry. To judge by chemical composition, copper from Ireland was traded into Britain, along with gold from the Mourne Mountains. The incomers boosted what had been a dwindling population of farmers, and created a thriving society. From around 2,200 BC Bell Beaker interest in Britain intensified as Cornwall was discovered to be a prime source for tin, the precious component of true bronze. This resource gave the British Isles a head start in Europe in making bronze.

For decades a vision of prehistoric population continuity shaped a view of Bell Beaker in the British Isles as a purely cultural phenomenon. The discovery of the Amesbury Archer near Stonehenge forced a reconsideration. This man lived around 2,350 BC and was buried with Beaker pots and wrist guards. His gold hair binders are the earliest gold objects found in Britain. Tests were carried out on the Archer’s teeth and bones. They show that he came from Central Europe, near the Alps. The copper of his knives was also from the Continent (Northern Spain and Western France). Significantly, he was also buried with a cushion stone, used by metal-workers. Other such discoveries followed. The "Boscombe Bowmen", a group of burials near Stonehenge may have come from Wales or South-East Ireland. Yet equally likely are several parts of Continental Europe, including Brittany and Portugal on the Atlantic fringe, or the Massif Central, more suggestive of the Rhine route. The Ross Island miners could also have originated in Atlantic Europe, while a Dutch-style Beaker grave in Upper Largie, Argyll and Bute, Western Scotland, suggests immigration from the lower Rhine.

So what language did the Bell Beaker folk bring to the British Isles? Why were two types of Celtic spoken there by the time we have any records? Gaelic seems the older form. We can picture the first Beaker arrivals speaking an archaic form of Celtic that evolved over the millennia into the Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic that we know today. By contrast the Brittonic (or Brythonic) language of Britain was closely related to Gaulish, spoken across the Channel by the Roman period. That suggests that Britain received more or heavier waves of Celtic migration than did Ireland, continuing into the Iron Age. This fits the archaeological picture.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:49:41 PM by Jean M » Logged
secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 01:03:03 PM »

You write on your web site:
Quote
The Beaker people seem to have arrived swiftly in Iberia. Some of their earliest sites are found in Portugal.
If I remember Carbon-14 has dated the earliest Bell Beaker sites in Iberia. So you are agree with me: "Bell Beaker came first in Iberia, and then spread in occidental Europe", aren't you ?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 01:03:58 PM by secherbernard » Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 01:34:23 PM »

You write on your web site:
Quote
The Beaker people seem to have arrived swiftly in Iberia. Some of their earliest sites are found in Portugal.
If I remember Carbon-14 has dated the earliest Bell Beaker sites in Iberia. So you are agree with me: "Bell Beaker came first in Iberia, and then spread in occidental Europe", aren't you ?
I think it is important to remember that "pots are not people."  Although, of course, people made the pots.

We refer to these people as Beaker folks but what were they before they innovated or copied the Beaker pottery style?  The reason I ask, is we probably need to understand the full Beaker package and how it came together.  

The key may not be the earliest Carbon-14 dating for the first full-blown Beaker site. Similar to genetics, perhaps it is just as important to know where the parent and sibling cultures (partial or pre-Beaker package) were.

Think of like this... perhaps R-P312's population was already exploding by the time the full Beaker package came together.  Some of the innovations may have been in Iberia, but the continental cousins may have picked up those innovations via the exchange/trade network.

I don't know the answer, but I'd like to learn more about these Beaker people and their predecessors.  The Beaker people showed up in all of the right spots (for a P312 correlation), but the vexing question is who were their predecessors?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 01:46:23 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 02:48:37 PM »

I can't remember the name or author of the study, but it was based on dental characteristics of five Beaker areas.  It showed that Iberia and the Czech Rep. Beakers adopted the Beaker package more than an intrusive migration occurring.  This might explain the Beaker pottery in Iberia showing an early date because it maybe moved ahead via a Mediterranean trade network, before  the  "Beaker people" themselves.  Interestingly enough, the other three areas Hungary, Switzerland, and south France showed evidence of intrusive Beaker people.  The latter area, roughly the same arc along the Upper Danube and the Alps is where the R1b trail seems to start growing  into its various subclades. 

As for Beaker antecedents, the Vucedol culture in eastern Croatia began around 3000 BC and has some similiar material as the Beakers like stone wristguards and is geographically a good fit.  There was also a brachiocephalic or round-headed physical type that was present in Vucedol and in the preceding Baden culture (3600 BC), along with the more numerous gracile, long-headed neolithic types.  Actually, the most brachiocephalic Beakers by cranial index, robustness of skeleton, and as a % of the overall Bronze age remains were in the British Isles.  The brachiocephalic element have been found going back to the Paleolithic in various areas, but never really a majority type.  However, in regards to the Copper-Bronze ages this type begins to show up more significantly in the Balkans for some reason.  All of the northern steppe-related cultures of the time were characteristically long-headed, some with broader faces and the SE Europe Neolithic were smaller in stature, yet still long-headed.   If R1b is connected to this period of the Balkans (roughly the 4th millenium BC), was this physical type brought with them from Anatolia or Armenia, where this type also shows up among the later Hittites and Armenians?
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

secherbernard
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 03:28:44 PM »

I can't remember the name or author of the study, but it was based on dental characteristics of five Beaker areas.  It showed that Iberia and the Czech Rep. Beakers adopted the Beaker package more than an intrusive migration occurring.  This might explain the Beaker pottery in Iberia showing an early date because it maybe moved ahead via a Mediterranean trade network, before  the  "Beaker people" themselves.  Interestingly enough, the other three areas Hungary, Switzerland, and south France showed evidence of intrusive Beaker people.  The latter area, roughly the same arc along the Upper Danube and the Alps is where the R1b trail seems to start growing  into its various subclades. 
The author of the study is Jocelyne Desideri: "Europe during the Third Millenium BC and Bell Beaker Culture Phenomenon: peopling history through dental non-metric traits study (2008)."

As for Beaker antecedents, the Vucedol culture in eastern Croatia began around 3000 BC and has some similiar material as the Beakers like stone wristguards and is geographically a good fit.  There was also a brachiocephalic or round-headed physical type that was present in Vucedol and in the preceding Baden culture (3600 BC), along with the more numerous gracile, long-headed neolithic types.  Actually, the most brachiocephalic Beakers by cranial index, robustness of skeleton, and as a % of the overall Bronze age remains were in the British Isles.  The brachiocephalic element have been found going back to the Paleolithic in various areas, but never really a majority type.  However, in regards to the Copper-Bronze ages this type begins to show up more significantly in the Balkans for some reason.  All of the northern steppe-related cultures of the time were characteristically long-headed, some with broader faces and the SE Europe Neolithic were smaller in stature, yet still long-headed.   If R1b is connected to this period of the Balkans (roughly the 4th millenium BC), was this physical type brought with them from Anatolia or Armenia, where this type also shows up among the later Hittites and Armenians?
It seems that cranial morphology is not only genetic, but also depends on environment. So it is difficult to deduce something from this.
Logged

YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 03:34:43 PM »

The Beaker people showed up in all of the right spots (for a P312 correlation), but the vexing question is who were their predecessors?

There seem to be not just one Beaker people, but at least two different types, both with origins on the European steppe or nearby, but physically different.    

1) "The Stelae People". Long-headed?

2) The Central European Beaker People. Round-headed.

The difference could just be two branches of the same family. (Intermarriage can change cranial shape.) Both seem to be correlated with P312, but the second type with L21 as well.  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 05:16:36 PM by Jean M » Logged
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 03:57:27 PM »

That's true Bernard.  Physical anthropology is only one part and the dna is now much more important.  If the round-headed populations of the Balkan copper and bronze ages were indeed intrusive, the type was clearly reduced in importance by the time of the British and Contintental Celts who were more mesocephalic on average.  Even the Unetice culture, right after Beaker were more long-headed than their predecessors, probably as result of the proximity to the old Corded-ware territory.  Of course, R1b and other ydna would remain constant regardless of phenotype.  I tend to think the brachiocephalic phenomenon at this time was intrusive, but it must have been reduced through admixture or other unknown factors by the latter part of the Bronze age.
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 05:23:56 PM »

you must be very carefull with irish legends. what you read in bookson-line are versions. if you go to ireland and her some local versions of tales they vary quite a lot. the most popular discrepency regards Fionn McCouil the scotts have the same legend but their version has him coming to ireland and making the giants causeway. The Lebar Gabala Erinn also contains ehe date of the birth of the earth at afew thousand years. It is not the truth but proably contains many truths.
As for why some one would want to invent it? Never underestimate the power of the church in ireland. having a family member appointed a bishop to great political power. A prime example of this is the row between Dal Cassians (Brian Boru) and the Ui Niel that led to the Northern clans army not taking part in the battle of Clontarf. I love the Irish legends and belived them for years but if your trying to link them to facts they don't fit. But i'm sure there are places ,events etc that are fairly accurate but the time frame is a deffinate no hoper. In the case of the Tain Bo Coulgne from the Ulster Cycle it is acredited to the Iron Age but many peolpe think it set in the Bronze Age and was updated. 
Logged
A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 05:46:40 PM »

In the church view if the irish didn't come from the Med. area where did they come from... North like the Monestry robbing Vikings? That wasn't giong to go down well in 10/11c 
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 06:41:43 PM »

I would tend to agree with RAS McAllister that there is virtually nothing factual in the book of invasions and Jean has described modern scholarly opinion of the legends well.  If I recall correctly, the  first appearance of the Milesian legend is in Nennius, a British (Welsh) compilation whose other legends such as Brutus as the origin of the Britons are rightly seen through as classically derived and given no credibility whatsoever as native history.  They are wonderful literature and everyone who delves into archaeology or history with a romantic bone in their body always starst off wanting to find truth in these legends.  However, despite this virtually everyone eventually comes to the same conclusion.  There are other layers in Irish literature an mythology that have have some dim factual basis but even those I think tend to not extend past the late Iron Age.  Peoples like the Fir Domnain, Cruithin etc do have a historical basis and these sub-ethnic divisions probably do hark back to the late Iron Age.  However, I really think that is the maximum stretch of any history in Irish mythology and I think it barely touches the BC era.  

Basically no believable origin legend survives for the Irish and Celtic British.  I think the reason is simply because these peoples had been around for so long none was remembered.  One clue was in Strabo?? who says that the interior Britons considered themselves indigenous.  My feeling is that for the Irish and most of the British that is how they felt about themselves 2000 years ago and their foreign roots were 'time out of mind' and forgotten and required fabrication in later times.  Even L21 may provide a clue. Variance seems to suggest a fairly rapid dispersal soon after its coming into existence.  That by most estimates would have been within the Neolithic or copper Age c. 4000-6500 years ago which I think is safely within 'time out of mind' and would certainly have made people think of themselves as autochthons even 2000 years ago.    
  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 06:53:06 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 06:52:07 PM »

That's true Bernard.  Physical anthropology is only one part and the dna is now much more important.  If the round-headed populations of the Balkan copper and bronze ages were indeed intrusive, the type was clearly reduced in importance by the time of the British and Contintental Celts who were more mesocephalic on average.  Even the Unetice culture, right after Beaker were more long-headed than their predecessors, probably as result of the proximity to the old Corded-ware territory.  Of course, R1b and other ydna would remain constant regardless of phenotype.  I tend to think the brachiocephalic phenomenon at this time was intrusive, but it must have been reduced through admixture or other unknown factors by the latter part of the Bronze age.

One interesting theory I read years ago (cant recall where) is that the long headed people in the barrows of the Early Neolithic period were really just a small minority of migrant farmers  but that the large invisible majority remained round headed hunter gatherer stock, invisible because they were not buried in the Neolithic tombs.  This ideas goes on to suggest that with time the mass of 'locals' became integrated with and swamped the migrants by copying their farming techniques etc.  However, due to a lack of inhumations from the later Neolithic (pre-beaker) this effect essentially is hidden from view in the archaeological record until in the beaker period inhumation resumed.  So, essentially this idea views the large round headed beaker people as the first viewing of the re-emergence of the Mesolithic substrate that had possibly happened or been under way many centuries earlier.  Not sure if I believe that but its interesting. 
Logged
Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 07:00:35 PM »

One clue was in Strabo?? who says that the interior Britons considered themselves indigenous.    
Caesar, Gallic Wars, V.12.
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 07:04:01 PM »

(Wiki)
Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) is the Middle Irish title of a loose collection of poems and prose narratives recounting the mythical origins and history of the Irish race from the creation of the world down to the Middle Ages. An important record of the folkloric history of Ireland, it was compiled and edited by an anonymous scholar in the 11th century, and might be described as a mélange of mythology, legend, history, folklore and Christian historiography. It is usually known in English as The Book of Invasions or The Book of Conquests, and in Modern Irish as Leabhar Gabhála Éireann or Leabhar Gabhála na hÉireann.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


I don't know how reliable the stories are.
One question that comes to mind..can Ireland be seen from Spain?






No you definately cannot see Ireland from Spain or indeed even simewhere like NW France which is far closer.  In fact the only place Ireland is very visible from is SW Scotland and adjacent areas like the Isle of Mann and Cumbria.  I understand Ireland can barely be seen from nearby Wales.

As Jean points out, the legend of Bregon's tower is stolen from Classical sources.  It was the great Roman trading lighthouse at Brigantia, now A Coruna in NW Spain.  The foundations are preserved and can still be visited as a major tourist attraction.      
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 07:15:15 PM »

Here is a wiki link to the page that describes the roman lighthouse at A Coruna that is probably the origin of both the classical reference and the derivative Bregon's tower myth.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules

It seems to be considered no older than the 2nd century AD although with Roman interest in trade (possibly north Atlantic metal trade) stretching back into the late BC era.  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 07:20:22 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 08:55:45 PM »


One interesting theory I read years ago (cant recall where) is that the long headed people in the barrows of the Early Neolithic period were really just a small minority of migrant farmers  but that the large invisible majority remained round headed hunter gatherer stock, invisible because they were not buried in the Neolithic tombs.  This ideas goes on to suggest that with time the mass of 'locals' became integrated with and swamped the migrants by copying their farming techniques etc.  However, due to a lack of inhumations from the later Neolithic (pre-beaker) this effect essentially is hidden from view in the archaeological record until in the beaker period inhumation resumed.  So, essentially this idea views the large round headed beaker people as the first viewing of the re-emergence of the Mesolithic substrate that had possibly happened or been under way many centuries earlier.  Not sure if I believe that but its interesting. 


Interesting.  The European paleolithic and mesolithic peoples were a mix of types, but the round-heads were more concentrated in the west from what I've read.  The Ofnet remains in Bavaria being one example and another at Teviec in Brittany. The predominance of long-headedness in the east coincides with the later physical type of the Corded-ware and Yamnaya people.  However, there was a brachycranic or round-headed element in the Yamnaya population around Kalmykia long before Asians arrived, so there is a case to be made for Yamnaya being a vector for a proto-Beaker population.  I think some of the"Beaker people" in western Europe could have been descendants of Mesolithics, while there also may have been a new, but unrelated round-headed population emerging near Hungary in the Copper age.
Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2010, 09:22:20 AM »

There is an intresting bit in the book of invasions regarding the battle  of Mag turaigh between the Fir Bolg and the Tutha De Danann battle was posponed  while the T.D.D. replaced their lighter spears with the heavier type used by the Fir Bolg. Later the God Lugh (of the long arm - taken to mean a good throw) using a spear the `flew forever until it found its target' this was thrown by means of a sling. Other versions surgest a stone thrown by a sling or just mention a sling. I wonder if it's possable little bits like this have been taken from Archaic oral traditions old before the people telling them even reached Ireland. The abcence of bows and arrows another thing of intrest they were around long before any one reached Ireland (assuming Ireland was first populated around 10,000 BC).
Logged
A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2010, 09:40:49 AM »

Does anyone who has read the Lebar Gabala Erenn fel that it favours the north. Bearing in mind that Armagh the `Christian Capitol' of Ireland is in the north and part of O'Nieland I am forced to cocider that it could well be an atempt to ligitamize the Ui Niel claim to High Kingship. I think it was JeanM who surgested something like this regarding something else. The  NE Irish/Scotish DNA evidense such as M222 adds to this idea too. This would be the ultimate propaganda of the time.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.114 seconds with 17 queries.