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Author Topic: R-M222: Is it NW Irish or NW Bavarian?  (Read 6990 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: October 07, 2010, 01:20:38 PM »

I'm still gathering data on this but there is some new news so I'll get this thread started.  Originally I was going to use the topic title has an attention-getter due to the Myres high frequency (5%) found in Germany. Then I was going to sub-title something a little milder and go into the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.

However, the new news is a couple of new M222 folks showed up in the Germany DNA project... so maybe I shouldn't write this off so quickly. I was really thinking England as the origin, but perhaps Jean M's La Tene speculative proposal, or something like it, has some merit.

I guess, it shouldn't be so surprising if M222's from Germany don't happen to join the "Northwest Irish" project. Maybe they are the "NW Irish/Continental" guys? We already have some "Irish Type IV/Continental" folks. LOL.

I still think the Myres data for Germany is challenging. Perhaps they sampled a location which is M222 HQ there, but regardless, there should be a lot more L21* projected across Germany as a whole than M222.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:29:04 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 04:18:04 PM »

Interesting thought. I'll look at the Myers data again. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 07:15:51 PM »

I'm still gathering data on this but there is some new news so I'll get this thread started.  Originally I was going to use the topic title has an attention-getter due to the Myres high frequency (5%) found in Germany. Then I was going to sub-title something a little milder and go into the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.

However, the new news is a couple of new M222 folks showed up in the Germany DNA project... so maybe I shouldn't write this off so quickly. I was really thinking England as the origin, but perhaps Jean M's La Tene speculative proposal, or something like it, has some merit.

I guess, it shouldn't be so surprising if M222's from Germany don't happen to join the "Northwest Irish" project. Maybe they are the "NW Irish/Continental" guys? We already have some "Irish Type IV/Continental" folks. LOL.

I still think the Myres data for Germany is challenging. Perhaps they sampled a location which is M222 HQ there, but regardless, there should be a lot more L21* projected across Germany as a whole than M222.

Maybe this will shed more light on where the Gaelic tribes came from before Ireland.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 07:18:31 PM »

It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 07:54:22 PM »

It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)

Time to stop all that baloney.

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eochaidh
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 09:03:57 PM »

It has to be Bavarian. Isn't the general rule that SNPs move from east to west, and that the origin of an SNP is never in the hotspot? This would make Bavaria much more likely than Ireland.

Plus, isn't it the absolute rule that there has never been any genetic trace from Ireland found on the Continent? It seems that even the suggestion that any man ever left Ireland, or was taken from Ireland to the extent that his descendants would leave a genetic trace is considered the most laughable proposal imaginable! Let's just make it a closed subject: no man ever left, or was taken from Ireland to the Continent.

You are opening yourself to an onslaught from the 'randy Irish monk" crowd. Bavaria is the only safe choice here....

Thanks, Miles Kehoe (Bavarian)

Time to stop all that baloney.



If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 08:22:26 AM »

Maybe this will shed more light on where the Gaelic tribes came from before Ireland.

Let's not start generalising from M222, which is not the only, or even the majority, SNP in Ireland.

In my view the first people to bring a Celtic language to Ireland were Bell Beaker folk c. 2,400 BC. From archaeological evidence, as well as genetic, the bulk of them probably came down the Rhine corridor,  then from somewhere along the coast took to the sea to spread around the SW tip of Britain to settle in Ireland and western Britain. However it looks as though the first Bell Beaker people to reach Ireland came up the Atlantic coast to Brittany and across to Ireland from there.

M222 arrived much later - probably around 200 BC with La Tene material in northern Ireland. The La Tene influence came from centres between the Middle Rhine and Seine. It is conceivable that M222 actually occurred in the La Tene heartland and spread from there into Britain and from Britain to Northern Ireland. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 08:26:53 AM »

If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe

Do stop sulking Miles. The ancestors of the Irish had to arrive from somewhere. Does it really distress you deeply to discover that places your ancestors crossed thousands of years ago are no longer Celtic speaking? They were at the time.  Nor are these places all called Ireland. Perhaps in your mind they should be. But that would be pretty confusing for the postman.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 09:07:35 AM »

If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.
Here is an example of an SNP that is found both heavily in Ireland but also with a significant presence in Germany: L21+.  Lo and behold, it's M222's father/grandfather.

No SNP is Irish or German. They are just mutations on the Y chromosome. They just are.  .... and many occurred long before anyone called themselves Irish or German.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 09:37:54 AM »

If what I wrote is baloney, then please explain how M222+ could be Irish and yet found in Bavaria.
Here is an example of an SNP that is found both heavily in Ireland but also with a significant presence in Germany: L21+.  Lo and behold, it's M222's father/grandfather.

No SNP is Irish or German. They are just mutations on the Y chromosome. They just are.  .... and many occurred long before anyone called themselves Irish or German.

Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

The speculation that the M222 mutation originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland by the La Tene culture is on the table, so, I am asking what is the speculation if the migration was in reverse (what is now Ireland to what is now Bavaria). I'm just asking someone give speculative examples of how it might have happened.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
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Jean M
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 10:53:29 AM »

Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

This is the problem. I can't think of one. I wouldn't be surprised to find some descendants of Irishmen in districts where Irish regiments were quartered during the Napoleonic Wars. But that doesn't take us into Germany. Nor would I expect a huge impact on an already dense population in France and Spain. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »

@ Mikewww Where are you getting Bavaria as the specific source?  Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 11:59:19 AM by Jean M » Logged
eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2010, 11:23:08 AM »

Specifically, though, if the M222 mutation did occur in what is now Ireland, how could it have spread to what is now Bavaria?

This is the problem. I can't think of one. I wouldn't be surprised to find some descendants of Irishmen in districts where Irish regiments were quartered during the Napoleonic Wars. But that doesn't take us into Germany. Nor would I expect a huge impact on an already dense population in France and Spain. 

Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland. How is this sulking on my part?

I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 11:42:04 AM »

Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland.

No it isn't. So far we are dealing with three men, as far as I can work out, one from the study, and two noted in the top post. This is not enough to build a theory on, let alone a certainty. What's going on here is a little light speculation.

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How is this sulking on my part? I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Yes Miles - you say it with heavy sarcasm any time a discussion starts about the movement of L21 and M222.  :) Given that you are not talking to idiots, we all know that you are attempting a reductio ad absurdum. It gets wearing. It is accepted by any sane person that the Irish have left Ireland in their millions. Although most of these emigrants headed for England, the US and other former British colonies, significant numbers went to Continental Europe at various times, for various reasons. I could probably compile a list if I had the time. There were Irish religious and political refugees, plus I think Irish navvies working on the construction of some French railways.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:08:08 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2010, 12:07:08 PM »

Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.

The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  
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eochaidh
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 12:07:24 PM »

Then you are in complete agreement with me. The only answer is that M222 originated in what is now Bavaria and migrated to what is now Ireland.

No it isn't. So far we are dealing with three men, as far as I can work out, one from the study, and two noted in the top post. This is not enough to build a theory on, let alone a certainty. What's going on here is a little light speculation.

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How is this sulking on my part? I have stated several times that there is no possible way that genetics could have migrated out of what is now Ireland to the Continent.

Yes Miles - you say it with heavy sarcasm any time a discussion starts about the movement of L21 and M222.  :) Given that you are not talking to idiots, we all know that you are attempting a reductio ad absurdium. It gets wearing. It is accepted by any sane person that the Irish have left Ireland in their millions. Although most of these emigrants headed for England, the US and other former British colonies, significant numbers went to Continental Europe at various times, for various reasons. I could probably compile a list if I had the time. There were Irish religious and political refugees, plus I think Irish navvies working on the construction of some French railways.

I find terms like "randy Irish Monks" wearing and insulting, but no one ever seems to speak out against their use. The idea that the "Wild Geese" might have left a genetic mark is also roundly mocked, and I find that wearing. By the way, I am not one who has offered the Irish Monk or Wild Geese speculation.

Speculation is fine. Argument is fine. Mocking any suggestion that the Irish could have left any genetic mark on the Continent is wearing.

Jean, perhaps you could help me rid the forums of the term "randy Irish monks". My lovely Irish Catholic parents would have been disgusted by the term.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe
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Jean M
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 12:07:46 PM »

reductio ad absurdium

reductio ad absurdum

Thank you. Correcting.
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Jean M
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 12:11:56 PM »

I find terms like "randy Irish Monks" wearing and insulting, but no one ever seems to speak out against their use.

I have seen that phase used, but assumed that this was another example of heavy sarcasm - mocking the idea that large amounts of L21 could be spread by the Culdees, who seemed to be in flight from human contact, or other ascetic types. 
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »

The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  

Ah the inconsistency we were looking for, that makes a lot more sense now :)
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 03:09:55 PM »

Would not Irish monks have been accompanied by others maybe soldiers.
they were obviously sent by someone of a degree of importance and either the monks or their mission was worth protecting.
Also some of the Celtic Knotword' designs found in The Book of Kells are of Rhineland origin.
There has always been movement in and out of Ireland.
I mean the 1st guy to find Ireland went back where he came from to tell his mates or there'd be no one in Ireland.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 03:33:54 PM »

Has anyone read this http://www.clannada.org/time_early_lateneo.php
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 03:52:46 PM »

@ Mikewww Where are you getting Bavaria as the specific source?  Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.
Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.
No, no... Bavaria means nothing.. that was just a play using the word "Northwest" since Northwest Germany doesn't fit and we (or at least I don't) know where Myres' mysterious German M222 are really.  I was not intending to be specific to Bavaria.

Please let us know if the other three papers provide anything more specific.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 04:01:56 PM »

Looking at Myres table S4, I see a sample of 19 men from Germany, one of whom was R-M222. The source is given as three papers, starting with Myres NM, Ekins JE, Lin AA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Woodward SR, Underhill PA: Y-chromosome short tandem repeat DYS458.2 non-consensus alleles occur independently in both binary haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405, Croat Med J (2007); 48: 450-459.

Anybody seen that? It's OK. I've got it. Taking a look now.

The samples were from the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation. They had a sample of 333 from Germany. The total from Germany in the present study is 321. So what they have done is re-tested those samples for other SNPS, rejected a few I assume for technical reasons, and broken the rest into regional categories, where possible. That left them with 19 which could not be allocated firmly to a region and so were lumped together as just "Germany" of which 1 was M222. So the percentage is actually 1 out of 321 from Germany.  
Oh my gosh!  Thanks for the detective work. These guys need to be a little clearer on their tables, lables and foot notes.

I wonder if they might have thought about calling the category, "unknown German locations", rather than "Germany." Also sometimes a box needs to be marked "N/A" rather than populated with a meaningless statistic like a frequency of 5% of unknown German locations.

Nevetheless, I won't close the door on an early expansion of M222  possibly being on the continent.  It is showing up there...   but not enough to discuss any meaningful data.   However, England may be a different story.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 04:07:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 04:33:49 PM »

Would not Irish monks have been accompanied by others maybe soldiers. They were obviously sent by someone of a degree of importance and either the monks or their mission was worth protecting.

If you are talking about the mission of Columba - as far as I know, he had no military escort. But he was certainly part of a pattern of coming and going between Northern Ireland and Northern Britain. No one doubts it. The discussions referred to have been about the L21 found in Norway.   

Quote
Also some of the Celtic Knotword' designs found in The Book of Kells are of Rhineland origin.

That doesn't mean that someone went from the Rhineland to Ireland to assist in decorating the Book of Kells. It means that La Tene artistic influences, which had their origin in the La Tene centres of what is now France and Germany, fed into Britain in the Late Iron Age and from northern Britain into Northern Ireland c. 200 BC. Then the Romans came along and scooped most of what had been the La Tene Culture area into the Roman Empire. Although some flickers of La Tene influence still appear in Romano-British items for a while, Roman culture put a damper on it. Whereas in Ireland the La Tene style continued to flourish right into the early Christian period.   

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2010, 05:23:39 PM »

I'm still gathering data on this ...  the data related to England vis-à-vis Ireland and Scotland.
I have two data analysis points to present.  The first and simplest is a straight analysis of STR variance.

I've used several sets of markers (i.e. thrown out multi-copy, kept them in, etc.) and as my database of M222 haplotypes has grown, England's M222 variance remains consistently higher.

English MDKAs' M222 variance ranges from 20 to 50% higher than Ireland's. Scotland's variance ranges from -4% to +7% of Ireland's. You can add Scotland and Ireland together and still England's variance ranges 20 to 50% higher.

This is just one factor, but the implication is that M222 was in England prior to Ireland or Scotland.  If this is the case, neither Ireland nor Scotland are the source for M222, the Northwest Irish.  It doesn't matter if there was some Irish back-migration to England, how can the target geography have greater vaiance than the source?  If you disagree, please explain.

This is point #1. We'll get to point #2 later. It it is Y DNA data based but it is not as objective.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 05:44:46 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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