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Author Topic: anyone know anything about this LBK Neolithic ancient DNA paper?  (Read 6163 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2010, 12:49:09 PM »

The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html
The map showing Lactose Tolerance in Europe is wrong, at least for the Basque Country, where T 13910 is at 91.7%
Iberia shows fairly high overall, but I agree it would seem there should be dark (hot) spot over Basque Country. Is the 91.7% for everyone in Basque Country, or Basque heritage people only?
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2010, 04:33:14 PM »

The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html
.....
It looks like non-Cisalpine Italy didn't get the lactose tolerance.  Is it possible that the Impressed/Cardium Pottery advance through Italy and Iberia would have missed the milk drinking gene?    

How much R-M269+ P312- U106- is found in Iberia?  Is all of this reflective of R-P312 not expanding until the north side of Lake Balaton? and therefore going with the LBK but not with the Impressed Wares peoples?

Does anyone know the percentages of R-M269 in Italy and then in Iberia that are P312- U106-?   I guess that info is in the ht35 project..  I'll look over there.  Maybe that's the answer, not that Iberia is any kind of refugium, but just that the Impessed Wares didn't carry the milk drinking and may have coincidentally not had the P312+ portion of R-M269 with it.  

I guess P312 could have split in the Balkans prior to the LBK and Impressed Wares advances.  If so perhaps is it SRY2627, U152 and L21 that were the mutations surfing the LBK waves west and northwest while U106 rode north and east?  Some of the P312* might then have gone with Impressed Wares to Italy ...although of that doesn't help figure out U106 in Austria.
Okay, I did a little checking and have a supposition that I now lean towards:

P312 made it to Iberia through the Pyrenees from the continent and not from Italy. P312 was not part of the Impressed Wares. There was no significant early southerly split of P312 from SE Europe through Italy.

This is based on my understanding that the Impressed (Cardium) Wares culture colonies expanded into Italy and then to coastal areas of Iberia.

I looked at "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" by Myres et al and took the Table S4 data on Iberia and Italy.

The counts surveyed were  554 from Iberia and  282 from Italy.


Frequencies:
         Iberia  Italy
R-M269*  0.0%    1.1%
R-L23*   0.6%    5.0%
R-L51*   0.9%    1.4%
R-L11*   0.6%    0.7%
R-U106   2.5%    3.5%
R-P312   48.0%   25.2%

% of U152 within R-P312
         6.5%    81.3%


I was expecting more L23*, L51* or L11* in Iberia if there was an "Italian" connection (not literally just ancient Impressed Wares.)  I also thought P312* would be larger than it is in Italy but U152 dominates P312 in Italy.

Lactose tolerance is much stronger in Iberia than Italy. It would appear that the Lactose tolerance, since it is not strong in Italy, didn't go with the Impressed Wares people. The correlation of the milk drinkers appears stronger where the P312 and U106 people went..  

The supposition follows that some L11* may not have been in the milk drinking families, but some L11 folks, including U106 and P312 picked it up on the north side of the lake as Linear Pottery (LBK) people.  They spread through Western Europe from there including west as well as north, so some portion of L11+ types became a large part of the milk drinking phenomenon.

Myres does show that 88% of the R-P312 in Iberia is P312* but SRY2627, M153 and the North-South cluster are included in that.  I don't think we should view P312* in Iberia as predecessor to other P312 subclades... just as undefined brothers.

BTW, my variance (from FTDNA projects) for P312* in Iberia is less than L21's or U152's overall variances.  SRY2627 is also a good 20% younger than L21 or U152. U152 is the oldest of P312's subclades.  

Too bad Myres didn't look at SRY2627.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:08:05 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2010, 04:54:27 PM »



.
Iberia shows fairly high overall, but I agree it would seem there should be dark (hot) spot over Basque Country. Is the 91.7% for everyone in Basque Country, or Basque heritage people only?
Basque heritage only, right now more than 70% of the people living in the Spanish side of the Basque Country is of non Basque origin
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:57:16 PM by IALEM » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 05:00:08 PM »


P312 made it to Iberia through the Pyrenees from the continent and not from Italy. P312 was not part of the Impressed Wares. There was no significant early southerly split of P312 from SE Europe through Italy.


However Neolithic in Iberia is not LBK, so it would mean a later arrival, maybe the reflux from Bell Beaker, I can´t think of any other earlier arrival through the Pyrenees attested archaeologically
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2010, 10:56:53 AM »

.. A large Neolithic settlement in the Upper Franconia region of northern Bavaria.
The remains of more than 40 houses were unearthed, as well as skeletons, a spinning wheel, bulbous clay vessels, cows' teeth and broken sieves for cheese production -- a typical settlement of the so-called Linear Pottery culture (named after the patterns on their pottery).
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,723310,00.html
The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html
...
I guess I should ask first.. I'm assuming this article and the background of the archaeological work is all credible, right?
The alignment of the Neolithic advance with R-M269 variance is very convincing.
Jean M referred me to some additional information and related studies. I've also read Paleoanthropologist's (John Hawks) blog topic titled "Neolithic milk fog" which is critical of the Spiegel article's general conclusion superimposing the milk drinking on the spread of the LBK.

The net is that the Spiegel article has some logical fallacies. First, the method they used to determine the LBK core area was where milk drinking emanated from in a big way is based partially on frequency but ignores people in Pakistan and Northern India with the same gene. Including those two geographies in the analysis would have moved their milk drinking to the east.  That does not mean that much, but just the whole method is faulty. A second fallacy is that the Neolithic skeletons, not just in the Near East, but in the LBK have shown up without the milk drinking gene so far.  A third problem is that their appears to be a major discontinuity in some of the LBK mtDNA haplogroups.

All of this does NOT mean the milk drinking didn't explode in the LBK core areas, but just that you can't really attribute it to the initial spread of the LBK.  However, it is the initial spread of the LBK that Cunliffe believes was so significant that it probably did carry new peoples with it.  He said the same of the Impressed Wares.

As far as I can see, I can't place P312 (and perhaps R-M269 in general) with the Impressed Wares because it doesn't show up in a progressive, phlyogenetic structure indicating a cline from Southern Italy to Iberia.

Since the Spiegel article has some fallacies and does not account for the same gene, -13,910 C>T, being found in North India/Pakistan as well as Europe, it takes a leg away from a "P312 went with the LBK" hypothesis.

Milk drinking frequency does have a great deal of correlation with the brothers R-P312 and R-U106, as do Indo-European languages. That puts my inclinations back to where I started out with RMS2's "My PIE haplogroup theory" and it's correlation with the European "milk drinking" gene, which applies through the British Isles with its correlation with L21.  

All of this is not to say that R-M269 did not have some presence in the Neolithic advances, but P312's and U106's growth appear to be late Neolithic Age to Bronze Age expansions.  That's still all speculation, but I'm having a harder time making the Neolithic advances fit.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 07:18:09 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2010, 08:05:45 PM »

Here is another paper. "Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities" by Haak, et al., just out.
http://tiny.cc/hjkxp

They show a very strong affinity between mt DNA of the Near East and the spread of the LBK culture.

... AND they did get a couple of Y DNA samples successfully tested.
Quote from: 'Haak'
The Y chromosome hgs obtained from the three Derenburg early Neolithic individuals are generally concordant with the mtDNA data (Table 1). Interestingly, we do not find the most common Y chromosome hgs in modern Europe (e.g., R1b, R1a, I, and E1b1), which parallels the low frequency of the very common modern European mtDNA hg H (now at 20%–50% across Western Eurasia) in the Neolithic samples. Also, while both Neolithic Y chromosome hgs G2a3 and F* are rather rare in modern-day Europe, they have slightly higher frequencies in populations of the Near East, and the highest frequency of hg G2a is seen in the Caucasus today. The few published ancient Y chromosome results from Central Europe come from late Neolithic sites and were exclusively hg R1a . While speculative, we suggest this supports the idea that R1a may have spread with late Neolithic cultures from the east.
They speculated on the absence of R1a by referring to a prior study and "late Neolithic" sites. They are silent on what happened with R1b.  I guess the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but R1b, looks like a later and later arrival to Europe.  If so, that would match the "youthfulness" of those who spring from the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Smells like a Bronze Age expansion....
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« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2010, 09:35:17 PM »

Very interesting.  I wonder if the F* individuals are indigenous (or mesolithic people who adopted farming) relative to the possibly intrusive G2a3 from the near east.   There's probably no way of knowing but F* seems like a good candidate for a descendant of Cro-magnon men.
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« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2010, 10:02:20 PM »

Very interesting.  I wonder if the F* individuals are indigenous (or mesolithic people who adopted farming) relative to the possibly intrusive G2a3 from the near east.   There's probably no way of knowing but F* seems like a good candidate for a descendant of Cro-magnon men.
I don't think we see F* scattered all over Europe like Hg I folks. The study says both G and F* have a higher incidence in areas like the Caucasus than they do in Europe.  To me that does not indicate F* is Mesolithic.  Why do you think F* is Paleothic?
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« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2010, 10:37:47 PM »

Very interesting.  I wonder if the F* individuals are indigenous (or mesolithic people who adopted farming) relative to the possibly intrusive G2a3 from the near east.   There's probably no way of knowing but F* seems like a good candidate for a descendant of Cro-magnon men.
I don't think we see F* scattered all over Europe like Hg I folks. The study says both G and F* have a higher incidence in areas like the Caucasus than they do in Europe.  To me that does not indicate F* is Mesolithic.  Why do you think F* is Paleothic?

I think F is old enough to have spread to Europe with the Aurignacians or later given it's proposed age of approximately 48,000 ya, but really it's just my first impression.  That's a fair point about Hg I, which may have been the predomiant Mesolithic ydna in Europe.  Hg I, IJ, or something close may have been associated with the later Gravettian around the time of the last glacial maximum, which explains more I and a lot less F today.  F is a parent group to IJK and G, so it has links to most of Western Eurasia with I in Europe and G in SW Asia/Caucasus.  With the LBK G2a3 I think it is most likely a Neolithic entrant, but F* could  go either way given its relative age to G2a3 (less than 10,000 ya?).   I would like to see a morphology report from these skulls or other remains though.
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2010, 07:07:57 PM »

Here is another paper. "Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities" by Haak, et al., just out.
http://tiny.cc/hjkxp

That's the very Wolfgang Haak et al paper Alan enquired about in the first post on this thread. We haven't had to wait long for it to come out. :) 
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2010, 07:20:20 PM »

Here is another paper. "Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities" by Haak, et al., just out.
http://tiny.cc/hjkxp
That's the very Wolfgang Haak et al paper Alan enquired about in the first post on this thread. We haven't had to wait long for it to come out. :) 
Yes, that's why I posted that reply here.
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« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2010, 07:33:07 PM »

Here is the paper. "Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities" by Haak, et al., just out.
http://tiny.cc/hjkxp
They show a very strong affinity between mt DNA of the Near East and the spread of the LBK culture.
... AND they did get a couple of Y DNA samples successfully tested.
Quote from: 'Haak'
The Y chromosome hgs obtained from the three Derenburg early Neolithic individuals are generally concordant with the mtDNA data (Table 1). Interestingly, we do not find the most common Y chromosome hgs in modern Europe (e.g., R1b, R1a, I, and E1b1), which parallels the low frequency of the very common modern European mtDNA hg H (now at 20%–50% across Western Eurasia) in the Neolithic samples. Also, while both Neolithic Y chromosome hgs G2a3 and F* are rather rare in modern-day Europe, they have slightly higher frequencies in populations of the Near East, and the highest frequency of hg G2a is seen in the Caucasus today. The few published ancient Y chromosome results from Central Europe come from late Neolithic sites and were exclusively hg R1a . While speculative, we suggest this supports the idea that R1a may have spread with late Neolithic cultures from the east.
They speculated on the absence of R1a by referring to a prior study and "late Neolithic" sites. They are silent on what happened with R1b.  I guess the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but R1b, looks like a later and later arrival to Europe.  If so, that would match the "youthfulness" of those who spring from the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Smells like a Bronze Age expansion....

I think I'm just catching up with Jean M on this, but I rechecked the start of the Bronze Age.
Quote from: 'Wikipedia'
It is possible that bronze was invented independently in the Maykop culture of the North Caucasus as early as the mid-4th millennium BC, which would make them the makers of the oldest known bronze. Others date the same Maykop artifacts to the mid-3rd millennium BC. However, the Maykop culture only had arsenical bronze, which is a naturally occurring alloy.
Quote from: 'Wikipedia'
The earliest tin-alloy bronzes date to the late 4th millennium BC in Susa (Iran) and some ancient sites in Luristan (Iran) and Mesopotamia (Iraq).

The copper and bronze work expanded fairly early in Eastern Europe with the Yamnaya Culture.  Yamnaya appears to have been prior to the Bell Beakers, the Yamnaya being 3600 - 2300 BC while the Beakers were 2400 - 1800 BC.

... so we have the Early Bronze Age in the Near East/Caucasus and then in the Pontic Steppes into Eastern Europe prior to the Bell Beakers in Iberia.  How did metallurgy get from the Near East or the plains of Eastern Europe to Iberia?   By sea and Southern/Central Italy or by land around the north edge of the Alps or even down from the plains of Germany from Poland?
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2010, 07:45:35 PM »

Its very interesting but from a y-DNA point of view the sample is far too small to conclude anything.  I think we need the LBK y--DNA sample to be 4 times that size and still have no R1b before I would start to think its hinting at anything.  The study does seem to show that it is only a matter of time and effort before a useable y-DNA LBK sample could be built up.    The mt DNA evidence is very interesting though.  I still need to read the paper properly though. 
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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2010, 08:04:18 PM »

How did metallurgy get from the Near East or the plains of Eastern Europe to Iberia?   By sea and Southern/Central Italy or by land around the north edge of the Alps or even down from the plains of Germany from Poland?

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/Coppersmelting.jpg
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« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2010, 08:12:19 PM »


I think I'm just catching up with Jean M on this, but I rechecked the start of the Bronze Age.

There is a lengthy Copper Age in the Near East and eastern Europe before the spread of true Bronze. Because the Copper Age is so short in the British Isles, archaeologists haven't bothered with that label in the past, jumping straight from Neolithic to Bronze Age. But a group of them have been pushing recently for recognition of the importance of the Copper Age (early Bell Beaker) in Britain. http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba101/feat1.shtml
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2010, 12:03:30 AM »

How did metallurgy get from the Near East or the plains of Eastern Europe to Iberia?   By sea and Southern/Central Italy or by land around the north edge of the Alps or even down from the plains of Germany from Poland?
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/Coppersmelting.jpg
This map appears to show copper smelting from Romania, Hungary, Austria and Italy before Iberia.  Even though the full Beaker package or at least some of the earliest pottery is found in Western Iberia, it appears the copper working technology was in the Alpine, Italy, and upper Danubian regions prior to Iberia so it might have been in those regions as an antecedent component of the Beaker Culture.
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