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Author Topic: anyone know anything about this LBK Neolithic ancient DNA paper?  (Read 4278 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: October 05, 2010, 06:30:31 PM »

This was listed on Dieneke's blog (note it includes y-DNA):

Wolfgang Haak et al.
Ancient DNA from Early Neolithic Farmers suggests a major genetic input from the Near East
The Neolithic transition (approx. 8000-4000 BC) is considered one of the most important demographic events in Europe’s past since the initial peopling of anatomically modern humans in the Upper Paleolithic (40,000 BC). Whether this transition has been cultural or driven by large-scale population movements is subject of a long-standing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology and human population genetics. So far, inferences about the genetic make-up of past populations have been drawn from studies of modern-day Eurasian populations, but ancient DNA studies now provide direct snapshots of specific time frames in the past.

We present new mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal data from Neolithic individualsfrom a Central European early farming site, Derenburg (Germany), which significantly extends the genetic dataset of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK; n=42), and provides the first detailed genetic picture of the earliest Neolithic culture in Central Europe (5500-5000 cal BC). Comprehensive population-genetic analyses utilizing a large database of modern-day Western Eurasian populations (n=23,394) reveal unique genetic features of the LBK population and a clearly distinct mitochondrial haplogroup frequency distribution. Importantly however, the LBK population shows an affinity to populations in the modern-day Near East, suggesting a major genetic input from this region at the time of the advent of farming in Europe.
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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 06:57:28 AM »

The paper has yet to be published. The abstract is of a paper read at the 4th International Symposium in Biomolecular Archaeology in early September in the newly-opened Centre for GeoGenetics in Copenhagen.   My blog post about the opening also covered the conference.

Dienekes picked the story up later in the month.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 06:58:36 AM by Jean M » Logged
OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 03:56:00 PM »

Neolithic Milk

A large Neolithic settlement in the Upper Franconia region of northern Bavaria.

The remains of more than 40 houses were unearthed, as well as skeletons, a spinning wheel, bulbous clay vessels, cows' teeth and broken sieves for cheese production -- a typical settlement of the so-called Linear Pottery culture (named after the patterns on their pottery).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,723310,00.html
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jean M
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 03:23:17 PM »

Oh my goodness! A thousand thanks! Der Speigel has managed to get inside information on  the progress of the LeCHE project. The headline is misleading. It looks as though LeCHE is going for the idea that lactase persistence arose within the LBK.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 03:42:34 PM by Jean M » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 06:14:00 PM »

Then all my theories of an origin of R from Italy remain likely: we Italian are mostly lactose intolerant and R-U152 didn’t come from North nor its ancestors R-L23-, R-L23+, R-L51+, R-L11+ etc. And certainly your theory of the Indo-Europeans from the Kurgans is unlikely: perhaps came from there the language, not the YDNA.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 07:06:28 PM »

we Italian are mostly lactose intolerant

Surely that's a typo?
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authun
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2010, 07:39:37 PM »

we Italian are mostly lactose intolerant

Surely that's a typo?

These are old figures from Bergsaglieri and are for lactase persistence, not quite the same as lactose intolerance, but they show a north/south divide:

Sardinian (Italy) 7.1%
Tuscan (Italy) 6.3%
North Italian (Bergamo, Italy) 35.7 %

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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 07:47:50 PM »

I started a thread on it awhile back, but in Britain lactase persistence increases as one moves north and west.

L21 also increases in that same direction, but that could be a coincidence.
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 01:10:16 AM »

we Italian are mostly lactose intolerant

Surely that's a typo?
The typo was that I wrote "Italian" for "Italians". About the "lactose intolerance" of Italians I wrote many times in the past after having done "deCODEme" and "23andME": I am "lactose intolerant" even though I drink "cappuccino" every morning and I haven't had any problem with milk. But I remember that my grandfather drank only barley coffee without milk. He of course was R1b1b2a (S136+) like me, documented at least from 15th century: see Giancarlo Tognoni who descends from a brother of my ancestor of 15th century.
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2010, 04:05:29 PM »

we Italian are mostly lactose intolerant

Surely that's a typo?
The typo was that I wrote "Italian" for "Italians". About the "lactose intolerance" of Italians I wrote many times in the past after having done "deCODEme" and "23andME": I am "lactose intolerant" even though I drink "cappuccino" every morning and I haven't had any problem with milk. But I remember that my grandfather drank only barley coffee without milk. He of course was R1b1b2a (S136+) like me, documented at least from 15th century: see Giancarlo Tognoni who descends from a brother of my ancestor of 15th century.

I just thought it sounded a bit odd that a country with so many fine dishes containing butter and cheese should have a high level of intolerance to milk. I think the Romans were the people who originally perfected the techniques of cheese making in the first place as well.

BTW I think you meant to write that your grandfather drank only barely coffee with milk, barley coffee would be an unpleasant sounding grain based drink :)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 05:43:29 PM »

I just thought it sounded a bit odd that a country with so many fine dishes containing butter and cheese should have a high level of intolerance to milk. I think the Romans were the people who originally perfected the techniques of cheese making in the first place as well.

BTW I think you meant to write that your grandfather drank only barely coffee with milk, barley coffee would be an unpleasant sounding grain based drink :)
I think that butter and cheese don't cause intolerance. My grandfather drank barely coffee without milk, because milk causes intolerance.
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 07:20:48 PM »

I don't know. Roasted (unmalted) barley is sometimes used as an adjunct in beer brewing. It does impart a coffee-like flavor.

I brew my own beer, so I know a little bit on the subject.
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authun
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 08:53:31 AM »

I just thought it sounded a bit odd that a country with so many fine dishes containing butter and cheese should have a high level of intolerance to milk.
I think that butter and cheese don't cause intolerance.

It depends on the cheese but most are OK. To make cheese, milk is separated into curds and whey by the addition of rennet, from the stomache of a mammal. The cheese is made from the curds but the whey, the liquid, contains most of the lactose.

cheers
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2010, 05:51:24 PM »

.. A large Neolithic settlement in the Upper Franconia region of northern Bavaria.
The remains of more than 40 houses were unearthed, as well as skeletons, a spinning wheel, bulbous clay vessels, cows' teeth and broken sieves for cheese production -- a typical settlement of the so-called Linear Pottery culture (named after the patterns on their pottery).
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,723310,00.html
The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html

It puts in place the Neolithic staging up into the great LBK expansion. I didn't realize there was a Neolithic "pause" in Western Anatolia and then again in Hungary/Romania. I didn't realize that Lake Balaton played such an important role.

I guess I should ask first.. I'm assuming this article and the background of the archaeological work is all credible, right?

The alignment of the Neolithic advance with R-M269 variance is very convincing.

It looks like non-Cisalpine Italy didn't get the lactose tolerance.  Is it possible that the Impressed/Cardium Pottery advance through Italy and Iberia would have missed the milk drinking gene?    

How much R-M269+ P312- U106- is found in Iberia?  Is all of this reflective of R-P312 not expanding until the north side of Lake Balaton? and therefore going with the LBK but not with the Impressed Wares peoples?

Does anyone know the percentages of R-M269 in Italy and then in Iberia that are P312- U106-?   I guess that info is in the ht35 project..  I'll look over there.  Maybe that's the answer, not that Iberia is any kind of refugium, but just that the Impessed Wares didn't carry the milk drinking and may have coincidentally not had the P312+ portion of R-M269 with it.  

I guess P312 could have split in the Balkans prior to the LBK and Impressed Wares advances.  If so perhaps is it SRY2627, U152 and L21 that were the mutations surfing the LBK waves west and northwest while U106 rode north and east?  Some of the P312* might then have gone with Impressed Wares to Italy  ...although of that doesn't help figure out U106 in Austria.

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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2010, 06:51:45 PM »

The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html

I guess P312 could have split in the Balkans prior to the LBK and Impressed Wares advances.  If so perhaps is it SRY2627, U152 and L21 that were the mutations surfing the wave west and northwest while U106 rode north and east?  ...although that doesn't help figure out U106 in Austria.

Ken Nordtvedt expressed an opinion on Rootsweb that these people could be I2b1c P78+.

It looks like everybody would like a piece of this cheese.
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2010, 07:24:01 PM »


Ken Nordtvedt expressed an opinion on Rootsweb that these people could be I2b1c P78+.

It looks like everybody would like a piece of this cheese.


But who will cut the cheese? ;-)

I guess that clade is what is found in the Balkans, but the Balkans today is actually low on the lactase persistence scale compaqred with Northern Europe.

So, perhaps whoever was carrying the T13910 mutation pushed on through to the northwest and didn't stick around to make the Balkans their primary habitation.
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2010, 07:52:57 PM »

But who will cut the cheese? ;-)

I guess that clade is what is found in the Balkans, but the Balkans today is actually low on the lactase persistence scale compaqred with Northern Europe.

So, perhaps whoever was carrying the T13910 mutation pushed on through to the northwest and didn't stick around to make the Balkans their primary habitation.

One of the points in the article was that lactose persistence was driven by  D I E T not the other way round, it also made the observation that the further north you go the better milk keeps and therefore the less need to muck about it.

You kind of get the impression that this gen only sticks around if you insist on drinking unprocessed milk.

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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 08:53:55 PM »

But who will cut the cheese? ;-)

I guess that clade is what is found in the Balkans, but the Balkans today is actually low on the lactase persistence scale compaqred with Northern Europe.

So, perhaps whoever was carrying the T13910 mutation pushed on through to the northwest and didn't stick around to make the Balkans their primary habitation.

One of the points in the article was that lactose persistence was driven by  D I E T not the other way round, it also made the observation that the further north you go the better milk keeps and therefore the less need to muck about it.

You kind of get the impression that this gen only sticks around if you insist on drinking unprocessed milk.




Of course, I guess it's sort of a "which came first" thing, but it seems to me the fortuitous appearance of the T13910 mutation is what made a dairy-heavy  D I E T possible and not the other way around.

(Now I understand why the word D I E T appeared as it did in your post.) :-0

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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2010, 09:09:48 PM »

But who will cut the cheese? ;-)

I guess that clade is what is found in the Balkans, but the Balkans today is actually low on the lactase persistence scale compaqred with Northern Europe.

So, perhaps whoever was carrying the T13910 mutation pushed on through to the northwest and didn't stick around to make the Balkans their primary habitation.

One of the points in the article was that lactose persistence was driven by  D I E T not the other way round, it also made the observation that the further north you go the better milk keeps and therefore the less need to muck about it.
You kind of get the impression that this gen only sticks around if you insist on drinking unprocessed milk.
Of course, I guess it's sort of a "which came first" thing, but it seems to me the fortuitous appearance of the T13910 mutation is what made a dairy-heavy  D I E T possible and not the other way around.
(Now I understand why the word D I E T appeared as it did in your post.) :-0
Yes, I'm not sure if it is that important to know which came first, the chicken or the egg. Burger feels like there was "accelerated evolution," so that "lactose tolerance was selected for on a large scale within the population in the space of about 100 generations."  I'm don't know if the farmers were that smart of genetic engineers or not, but someone or some family, was lucky enough to have the mutation that allowed them to feast on the milk while other got sick and apparently died off of malnutrition at a higher rate.
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2010, 09:21:00 PM »

Ken Nordtvedt expressed an opinion on Rootsweb that these people could be I2b1c P78+.
I guess that clade is what is found in the Balkans, but the Balkans today is actually low on the lactase persistence scale compaqred with Northern Europe.

So, perhaps whoever was carrying the T13910 mutation pushed on through to the northwest and didn't stick around to make the Balkans their primary habitation.
Did Ken express any logic? I don't know about I-P78. I assumed Ken thought it must be found from Hungary to Scandinavia.

If I-P78 just appears in the Balkans, then he missed the point of the article.  It was the folks on the other side of Lake Balaton - "The Linear Pottery culture, which was the first to shift to the northern shore of Lake Balaton, gave the movement new life. Lüning talks about 'renegade' settlers who had created a 'new way of life' and a 'reform project' on the other side of the lake."

My interpretation is that some milk-drinkers took over the 'renegade" group and it grew like wild fire through Northern Europe, spilling over into the Isles and Scandinavia where we see the milk-drinking wave surfing gene in its' highest frequencies.

As far as mixing with R-P312... I2b1c(P78) falls under I2b along with I2b2(L38) and there is an existing hypothesis that I2b2(L38) is a tribal brother with R-L21.
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 07:34:46 AM »

Of course, I guess it's sort of a "which came first" thing, but it seems to me the fortuitous appearance of the T13910 mutation is what made a dairy-heavy  D I E T possible and not the other way around.

(Now I understand why the word D I E T appeared as it did in your post.) :-0

Yes, some sort of spam filter, I was wondering about finding some others and turning it a joke but figured a lot of them would probably be quite offensive so didn't bother :)

My sister in-law (who is inclined to tell tall stories) insists she saw children in this area glugging back gone off milk. Could this be easier on the stomach like cheese and yogurt. The people who live in the area on the map were sheep and goats were domesticated use the milk for the production of Yogurt and to a lesser extent cheese, but I don't think they bother with milk.

Either way, as you pointed out, when the mutation occurred the advantage to it's carriers must have been immense, especially for nomadic people.
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2010, 07:48:18 AM »

Did Ken express any logic? I don't know about I-P78. I assumed Ken thought it must be found from Hungary to Scandinavia.

I think it was a 'right time right place' argument. Of course the mutation is autosomal so presumably could have occurred in any SNP group in that area at that time.

As far as mixing with R-P312... I2b1c(P78) falls under I2b along with I2b2(L38) and there is an existing hypothesis that I2b2(L38) is a tribal brother with R-L21.

Sounds interesting, have you got any links for this?
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2010, 11:21:59 AM »

As far as mixing with R-P312... I2b1c(P78) falls under I2b along with I2b2(L38) and there is an existing hypothesis that I2b2(L38) is a tribal brother with R-L21.
Sounds interesting, have you got any links for this?
http://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/home
I like all of Hans' short papers but the one with links between I-L38 and R-L21 is "Early Bronze Age Origin and Late Iron Age (La Tène) Migrations of I-L38"

He might be off on the time period and culture but I-L38 and R-L21 do have several geographic affinities.
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2010, 05:30:05 PM »

Does anyone think that lactose tolerance could be closely linked with infant/child mortality the very young (and old) tend to be the hardest hit in times of food shortage. If crops failed milk could still be fairly abundant. It could also provide  mothers feeding infants with enough food to keep their milk supply up. Where as a mother relying on crop foods would be at a distinct disadvantage. So wouldn't that change the ratio of lactose tolerant/intolerant in just 1 generation and again every season of crop failure. I think this would have a greater effect on the genetic map than taking a population as a whole.
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2010, 05:26:37 AM »

.. A large Neolithic settlement in the Upper Franconia region of northern Bavaria.
The remains of more than 40 houses were unearthed, as well as skeletons, a spinning wheel, bulbous clay vessels, cows' teeth and broken sieves for cheese production -- a typical settlement of the so-called Linear Pottery culture (named after the patterns on their pottery).
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,723310,00.html
The map from the "How Middle Eastern Milk Drinkers Conquered Europe" is one of the best I've seen for ease of understanding.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html

It puts in place the Neolithic staging up into the great LBK expansion. I didn't realize there was a Neolithic "pause" in Western Anatolia and then again in Hungary/Romania. I didn't realize that Lake Balaton played such an important role.

I guess I should ask first.. I'm assuming this article and the background of the archaeological work is all credible, right?

The alignment of the Neolithic advance with R-M269 variance is very convincing.

It looks like non-Cisalpine Italy didn't get the lactose tolerance.  Is it possible that the Impressed/Cardium Pottery advance through Italy and Iberia would have missed the milk drinking gene?    

How much R-M269+ P312- U106- is found in Iberia?  Is all of this reflective of R-P312 not expanding until the north side of Lake Balaton? and therefore going with the LBK but not with the Impressed Wares peoples?

Does anyone know the percentages of R-M269 in Italy and then in Iberia that are P312- U106-?   I guess that info is in the ht35 project..  I'll look over there.  Maybe that's the answer, not that Iberia is any kind of refugium, but just that the Impessed Wares didn't carry the milk drinking and may have coincidentally not had the P312+ portion of R-M269 with it.  

I guess P312 could have split in the Balkans prior to the LBK and Impressed Wares advances.  If so perhaps is it SRY2627, U152 and L21 that were the mutations surfing the LBK waves west and northwest while U106 rode north and east?  Some of the P312* might then have gone with Impressed Wares to Italy  ...although of that doesn't help figure out U106 in Austria.


The map showing Lactose Tolerance in Europe is wrong, at least for the Basque Country, where T 13910 is at 91.7%
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