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Author Topic: L159 Testing at Ethnoancestry?  (Read 2534 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: October 03, 2010, 08:35:28 PM »

Kirsten Saxe of the 464X Project posted the link to Ethnoancestry's order page for S169, apparently its equivalent to L159 at FTDNA:

http://ethnoancestry.com/S168_S169.html


Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!
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Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 04:07:17 AM »

Kirsten Saxe of the 464X Project posted the link to Ethnoancestry's order page for S169, apparently its equivalent to L159 at FTDNA:

http://ethnoancestry.com/S168_S169.html


Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!

Ah that's what S169 is, I was wondering

they have this to say about S145 aka L21

S145 is the most common subgroup of S116 in NW Europe. It demonstrates a paternal link to the earliest inhabitants of Britain and Ireland.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/R1b.html

which makes me wonder about some of there assertions
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 11:50:10 AM »

...
Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!
.....
which makes me wonder about some of there assertions
I think many consumers (maybe most or almost all) want to be linked to ethnicities even if they may or may not have biases of one versus another. That being said, it appears this testing company is marketing to that, even if the science is questionable.
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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 01:01:27 PM »

Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!

What is the state of play with this SNP?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 01:33:19 PM »

So far, L159 continues to pop up around the Irish Sea. The ones from Ireland are either from Wexford, Waterford, Kildare, or Cork.

I'd say that the number of L159ers on each side of the Irish Sea is comparable, but in Britain it is mostly represented in Northern England, the Isle of Man, and Western Scotland (from Cromarty to Galloway/Borders). There are a couple of Norwegian members and one with ancestry from the Lorraine area in Germany.

As far as where L159 is older, that is still up in the air. But I mentioned on another thread that I am noticing some interesting haplotypes from Scotland. I was kinda surprised to see that Ethnoancestry already concluded its age and origin.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 03:12:59 PM »

As Mike said they're probably trying to drum up more interest in it.

Bearing in mind the lack of M222 in Scandinavia I can't help but find it curious that you've already got a couple of Norwegian people, could this be a Viking SNP?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 03:29:08 PM »

At this point I'm not sure what the L159 in Norway conveys. Two of the Norwegians in the L159 Project live there. One (Holmang) lives in Ofotenfjord in the North, and the other (Haugen) is in Oppland in the South. Duoos's (Duas) ancestor comes from More og Romsdal, and the Sedeniussen sample is another one that comes from the North in Tromso.

An interesting tidbit is that when I randomly asked Haugen to upgrade to 37 markers from 12, his results came back matching the Irish Sea Modal. That was a shot in the dark.

So while I can't really make anything of the L159 in Norway, I'm eager to know its frequencies there. It's all not in one place either.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 10:01:59 PM »

Kirsten Saxe of the 464X Project posted the link to Ethnoancestry's order page for S169, apparently its equivalent to L159 at FTDNA:

http://ethnoancestry.com/S168_S169.html


Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!

Ah that's what S169 is, I was wondering

they have this to say about S145 aka L21

S145 is the most common subgroup of S116 in NW Europe. It demonstrates a paternal link to the earliest inhabitants of Britain and Ireland.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/R1b.html

which makes me wonder about some of there assertions



I wouldn't pay much (or any) attention to their subclade descriptions. Note they say S116 defines the inhabitants of the glacial refuge in Iberia.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 10:10:58 PM »

Kirsten Saxe of the 464X Project posted the link to Ethnoancestry's order page for S169, apparently its equivalent to L159 at FTDNA:

http://ethnoancestry.com/S168_S169.html


Apparently S169 (L159) originated in Ireland... That's new news to me!

Ah that's what S169 is, I was wondering

they have this to say about S145 aka L21

S145 is the most common subgroup of S116 in NW Europe. It demonstrates a paternal link to the earliest inhabitants of Britain and Ireland.

http://www.ethnoancestry.com/R1b.html

which makes me wonder about some of there assertions



I wouldn't pay much (or any) attention to their subclade descriptions. Note they say S116 defines the inhabitants of the glacial refuge in Iberia.

Wow, they are still for an Iberian refugium? I guess it sells.
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OConnor
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 07:22:07 PM »

Neal and I are 47/67,  and both of us are  R-L159.2+

I'm expecting a lot of Murphy's testing +

It would help to get an idea of it's age. Did it spread to Scandinavia and come back with some Vikings later?

Or was it born in Scandinavia?

It will be an interesting project over time.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:22:35 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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A.D.
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 07:46:44 AM »

The founding of cities in Ireland is credited to the Vikings certianly in there time.
Hisrorical accounts till us all males were killed and women enslaved by Brian Boru
This refers to Danes, Norwegians faired better they fought on Boru's side.
If this is true would this that the cities woujd have disappeared or repopulated by native Irish (Idon't think the social structure if Ireland surports this, but I'm not an expert).
I don't think there was a total extermination of Viking males, it tends not happen that way even dispite the efforts.. So shouldn't there be moreY-DNA in common with Scandinavia (esp, Norway)
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2010, 01:10:59 PM »

The founding of cities in Ireland is credited to the Vikings

The Vikings didn't have cities. The first towns in Ireland, such as Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Waterford and Wexford, grew out of Viking settlements. They did not disappear along with Viking domination. As the Normans pressed into Ireland they founded inland towns, such as Trim, as well as building on Viking foundations along the coast.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/towns.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dublin
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:12:25 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2010, 01:35:39 PM »

The founding of cities in Ireland is credited to the Vikings certianly in there time.
Hisrorical accounts till us all males were killed and women enslaved by Brian Boru
This refers to Danes, Norwegians faired better they fought on Boru's side....
How are you distinguishing between the Danes and Norwegians in Ireland? Our modern Scandinavian political boundaries don't necessarily apply to back then. In my readings on the Cambro-Norman Invasion of Ireland, the Normans encountered Ostermen who controlled some of the coastal areas.  Ostermen were remnants of Vikings, but I don't know if they were differentiated other than as "men from the east."
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A.D.
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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2010, 02:44:37 PM »

I got the Norwegian/Dane distinction from an account of the Battle of Clontaff it went into detail about who was on who's side etc apparently there were Irish on booth sides more of a Clan based civil war. It also stated how the norther cavalry did not take part but watched. The Dal Cass held the responseable for Boru's death. The reason for the incident was a fall out over the appointment of a bishop, it went to a Dal Cassian not a close relation of the northern king.
As far as the Normans go' most  if not all of their early settlements were granted them by the church (remember these guy decedents went on to the Crusades and William the Bastard was well in with the Pope). The Irish seemed to view them as `foreign mercenaries in their Clan feuds.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2010, 09:22:00 PM »

I read that Doyle is the English form of the Gaelic Dubhgall, meaning "dark foreigner". Some scholars suggested this referred to the darker-haired Danes, when compared to the Norwegians.

But another theory holds that Dubhgall could mean "old foreigner", or the old Vikings. I forget who was in Ireland first, but I think it was the Norwegians.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 09:22:21 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2010, 09:36:10 PM »

I read that Doyle is the English form of the Gaelic Dubhgall, meaning "dark foreigner". Some scholars suggested this referred to the darker-haired Danes, when compared to the Norwegians.

But another theory holds that Dubhgall could mean "old foreigner", or the old Vikings. I forget who was in Ireland first, but I think it was the Norwegians.

"Dubh" can also mean evil. I've heard in the case of Doyle, "dubh" meant "evil foreigner".

Thanks,  Miles
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2010, 09:46:55 PM »

I read that Doyle is the English form of the Gaelic Dubhgall, meaning "dark foreigner". Some scholars suggested this referred to the darker-haired Danes, when compared to the Norwegians.

But another theory holds that Dubhgall could mean "old foreigner", or the old Vikings. I forget who was in Ireland first, but I think it was the Norwegians.

"Dubh" can also mean evil. I've heard in the case of Doyle, "dubh" meant "evil foreigner".

Thanks,  Miles

Yes, I have seen that variation too. Doesn't Doyle come from the same root that MacDougall does?

MacDougall is a cadet branch of Clan Donald, founded by Somerled. I think the chiefly line actually belongs to a Norwegian variety of R1a1.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 09:47:41 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2010, 09:57:57 PM »


[/quote]

"Dubh" can also mean evil. I've heard in the case of Doyle, "dubh" meant "evil foreigner".

Thanks,  Miles
[/quote]

Yes, I have seen that variation too. Doesn't Doyle come from the same root that MacDougall does?

MacDougall is a cadet branch of Clan Donald, founded by Somerled. I think the chiefly line actually belongs to a Norwegian variety of R1a1.
[/quote]

Yes, it's the same root. Both refer to the Danes.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2010, 09:59:32 PM »

... As far as the Normans go' most  if not all of their early settlements were granted them by the church (remember these guy decedents went on to the Crusades and William the Bastard was well in with the Pope). The Irish seemed to view them as `foreign mercenaries in their Clan feuds.
As far as the Nomans go, they and their allies, were originally invited in by Dermot MacMurrough. They did have an endorsement from the church, but they imposed their own control. The Normans were the best military of their time.
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A.D.
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 07:20:22 AM »

In Irish literature, poetry, songs etc  lots adaptations crop-up eg. the word `agus' =and can be changed to `as' This is known as poetic form.
more to the point `dubh' is frequently used for evil -depressed, sick and generally undesirable things. `Fear' the opposite nence `Feargal'= fair stranger  Dubhgal= dark stranger. I've also seen `gall' =stranger and `gael'= friend.
We must remember monks did most jf not all the writing and were heavily influenced by Latin. So there are 3 possible corruptions add to that the general lack of standardization we're going to get a lot of variances.
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A.D.
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 09:35:58 AM »

I was reading about shield construction appareantly they have wooden molds for leather shields (round buckler type) of both mederterrainian and scandinavian type found in Ireland. they were dated bronze or iron age. So there was some kind of connection with Scandinavia. Maybe this was established a trade route if only a minor one.They recently found a skeleton of a guy born in N.Ireland and died in N.E Scotland. Maybe others went further afield even as far as Norway?     
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 04:42:00 PM »

As well as viking towns there is clearcut evidence in the annals that the larger pre-Norman Irish monastic settlements were large, urban in nature with streets, different quarters and so on.  The most useful references are to fires.  They often describe the layout of these urban monastic sites.  Armagh is one example.  Typical form was concentric enclosures with the innermost being sacred and the outer ones being apparently more secular and divided into quarters.  Streets of houses are implied.  
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Jean M
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 05:14:46 PM »

@ Alan - Thanks for that. Interesting. We have monastic town foundations on this side of the water too, though I haven't mentioned them in my extremely condensed introduction to the topic. I won't hijack this thread though. I'll just read up on  Armagh.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2010, 05:50:01 PM »

@ Alan - Thanks for that. Interesting. We have monastic town foundations on this side of the water too, though I haven't mentioned them in my extremely condensed introduction to the topic. I won't hijack this thread though. I'll just read up on  Armagh.

The seminal work is Doherty 1985: Charles Doherty, ‘The monastic town in Early Medieval Ireland’, 45–75, in H.B. Clarke & A. Simms (eds), The comparative history of urban origins in non-Roman Europe. BAR International Series 255. Oxford: BAR, 1985.

Of course it has its critics although the majority of experts in the period still back the essential idea of really large partly secular settlements at the largest monasteries in at least the 10th--12th centuries and that certainly tallies with what I have seen in the annals.  I have looked in detail at the annalistic and other reference to Armagh and there is no doubt that it and others are examples of very large, structured settlements with a lot of houses, streets, named 'quarters', enclosure etc.  From memory, the best evidence for urban monasteries is in the Viking to Norman time-slot.  However I would not read too much into that as an indicator that they didnt exist before that period.  One of the problems with the historic period Irish annals is they start off very terse and minimalist and slowly get more full of detail as the centuries pass. Some archaeologists have through lack of a real understanding of the annals simply used them to try to see patterns of change (and even complie statistics) without taking this shift in writing style (and therefore detail of the material world) into account.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2010, 07:01:13 PM »

The seminal work is Doherty 1985: Charles Doherty, ‘The monastic town in Early Medieval Ireland’, 45–75, in H.B. Clarke & A. Simms (eds), The comparative history of urban origins in non-Roman Europe. BAR International Series 255. Oxford: BAR, 1985.

Sweet of you, but Bristol Uni Library doesn't have that volume. However I have  A New History of Ireland: Prehistoric and early Ireland on my wish list. That includes a little something on the topic (p.599 and see footnote 233).
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 07:03:39 PM by Jean M » Logged
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