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Mike Walsh
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« on: September 13, 2010, 12:12:24 AM »

Some of the new discoveries related to L176.2 are pretty interesting and we've been having a good discussion on Iberian Y DNA on another forum so I thought I'd note some items over here.

There seems to be a general feeling that P312* andSRY2627 are the predominant subclades in Iberia.  Of course P312* is really a paragroup but here is what I've found from our FTDNA projects..... more L21 and U152 to SRY2626.

37 __ P312* (L21- U152- M153- SRY2626- non N-S)
30 __ L21*
15 __ U152
11 __ M153
10 __ SRY2627/M167
09 __ P312* North-South Cluster
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 07:53:28 AM »

Some of the new discoveries related to L176.2 are pretty interesting and we've been having a good discussion on Iberian Y DNA on another forum so I thought I'd note some items over here.

There seems to be a general feeling that P312* andSRY2627 are the predominant subclades in Iberia.  Of course P312* is really a paragroup but here is what I've found from our FTDNA projects..... more L21 and U152 to SRY2626.

37 __ P312* (L21- U152- M153- SRY2626- non N-S)
30 __ L21*
15 __ U152
11 __ M153
10 __ SRY2627/M167
09 __ P312* North-South Cluster


wow that is so radically different from Myres etc.  I do wonder though.  I know just from that L21 count that a lot of that does not have a paper trail and less still to a known place.  Why is the majority of the amount that can be located crammed into the NE and close to the Portuguese border with almost zilch in between.  Myres showed very low levels of L21 although he did kind of confirm a peak in the NE (although I think he missed the real peak next door in the Basque country) and there was a slight rise again in Portugal although still low. 

I think the project map in general seems to have provided a fairly good idea of the geography of L21 across Europe but there is a large discrepancy between Myres stats and what comparison across the various project maps would suggest as the frequency of L21 as a percentage of R1b1b2 in a given area.  If you compared the results of the projects and Myres, L21 as a percentage of R1b1b2 in the projects is consistently far higher than it is in Myres.  That was certainly true of France and from what Mike posted is also true in Iberia.  It is certainly true in SW Germany and Switzerland too.  I know that the Iberian count suddenly took off and that some match chasing was involved but this does not seem to be true of France, Germany etc to any significant degree.  Given that L21 is the newest major R1b1b2 subclade defining SNP you would have thought it would be underrepresented not (as Myres would suggest) very significantly overrepresented in project results.  Its a very odd phenomenon. 
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 08:14:22 AM »

Yes, Myres' results are odd in some ways. The German results for L21 are just unbelievable, given what we have seen through FTDNA testing. Personally, I think something is wrong with Myres' figures in that regard: perhaps some sort of clerical error or lab error occurred. If Myres is right, and if it is at all representative in Germany, then we should not have as many German R-L21s in our project as we have in so short a time. But I'm not a statistician, so maybe I'm wrong.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 09:06:04 AM »

wow that is so radically different from Myres etc.  I do wonder though.  I know just from that L21 count that a lot of that does not have a paper trail and less still to a known place.  Why is the majority of the amount that can be located crammed into the NE and close to the Portuguese border with almost zilch in between.  Myres showed very low levels of L21 although he did kind of confirm a peak in the NE.....   Given that L21 is the newest major R1b1b2 subclade defining SNP you would have thought it would be underrepresented not (as Myres would suggest) very significantly overrepresented in project results.  Its a very odd phenomenon.  

I brought this up on reply #120 over on the "R-M269 Article.. by Myres" topic.

From what I can see in the study, Myres only has data on five specific Iberian locations - Seville, Leon, Santander, Valenica and Lisbon as listed in Table S4. That is not a full cross-section of Iberia.

Perhaps more importantly, those Iberian location lines of data are referenced to "1- Alonso S, Flores C, Cabrera V et al: The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape. Eur J Hum Genet 2005; 13: 1293-1302."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html

I am completely at a loss to explain this.  My understanding is Myres' M529 is equivalent to L21.  Myres has columns in Table S4 for M529(xM222) which seems to make sense as L21*.  There is no detail for Iberia at all that I can find in Tables S2 and S3 but that can be explained by how Table S4 Iberian data has a reference to the Alonso article.  What loses me is that the Alonso study is from 2005.  I don't see any mention of L21 or M529 or S145 anywhere in the article was published in 2005.  Wasn't this before the formal discovery of L21 in 2008?

I'm truly beginning to question some of these academic studies and losing some faith here.

Help, what am I missing?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 12:45:30 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 09:07:52 AM »

Yes, Myres' results are odd in some ways. The German results for L21 are just unbelievable, given what we have seen through FTDNA testing. Personally, I think something is wrong with Myres' figures in that regard: perhaps some sort of clerical error or lab error occurred. If Myres is right, and if it is at all representative in Germany, then we should not have as many German R-L21s in our project as we have in so short a time. But I'm not a statistician, so maybe I'm wrong.
Unfortunately, just because someone IS a statistician, doesn't make them right.
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 09:23:11 AM »

Since my faith in academic studies is waning, I might as well express my misunderstanding with this one as well...  and it is on topic of Iberian P312, particularly the somewhat mysterious M153.  I don't necessarily agree with this but it is called as the "Basque marker" by some.

"The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape" by Alonso et al.
Quote from: Alonso_study
There is a trend to consider the gene pool of the Basques as a 'living fossil' of the earliest modern humans that colonized Europe. To investigate this assumption, we have typed 45 binary markers and five short tandem repeat loci of the Y chromosome in a set of 168 male Basques. Results on these combined haplotypes were analyzed in the context of matching data belonging to approximately 3000 individuals from over 20 European, Near East and North African populations, which were compiled from the literature. Our results place the low Y-chromosome diversity of Basques within the European diversity landscape. This low diversity seems to be the result of a lower effective population size maintained through generations.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html

Perhaps low diversity means more a more recent common ancestor (younger age of the clade.)  The study has a counter-argument to this young age alternative.

Quote from: Alonso_study
In any case, this low effective size is not the result of a recent founder effect, as our data support the hypothesis that at least some lineages of Y chromosome in modern Basques originated and have been evolving since pre-Neolithic times.
I realize that they are talking about low effective size but that is the basis for the argument of the low diversity.

I may not be getting it and I should probably be able to come with a Latin term for the fallacy for this argument, but in my simple way of thinking ..... just because some lineages are old why must all lineages be old? Couldn't M153 be a latecomer to the tribe?  or just be a recent mutation to some R-P312* ancestor in the tribe?  Isn't Alonso et al. over-generalizing in their conclusion?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 09:29:55 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 09:49:24 AM »

Some of the new discoveries related to L176.2 are pretty interesting and we've been having a good discussion on Iberian Y DNA on another forum so I thought I'd note some items over here.
There seems to be a general feeling that P312* andSRY2627 are the predominant subclades in Iberia.  Of course P312* is really a paragroup but here is what I've found from our FTDNA projects..... more L21 and U152 to SRY2626.

37 __ P312* (L21- U152- M153- SRY2626- non N-S)
30 __ L21*
15 __ U152
11 __ M153
10 __ SRY2627/M167
09 __ P312* North-South Cluster

From the early results, SRY2627, does not appear to have originated in Iberia.  An SRY2627 project administrator has confirmed that 13 of 13 SRY2627+ people who took the L176.2 test, are L176.2+ so it definitely appears upstream.  Here are SRY2627's brothers found to date:

L176.2+ L165- SRY2627-
f41647 Miller England, North East, Co. Durham, Sunderland
f171839 Noble Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f86995 Pleis Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover

L176.2+ L165+ SRY2627-
f40551 Greenwade zzzunk
f47096 MacLeod Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f96597 MacLeod Scotland
f46281 McDonald Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f137480 McLeod Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f148833 McLeod zzzunk

The "brothers" don't seem to be found too close to Iberia, perhaps because it isn't home.

SRY2627 is particularly high in frequency in the Catalonia area of Spain, the old Spanish March that the Franks set up as a buffer zone with the Moors.
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 12:40:20 PM »

 ... SRY2627, does not appear to have originated in Iberia .... 13 of 13 SRY2627+ people who took the L176.2 test, are L176.2+ so it definitely appears upstream.  Here are SRY2627's brothers found to date:

L176.2+ L165- SRY2627-
f41647 Miller England, North East, Co. Durham, Sunderland
f171839 Noble Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f86995 Pleis Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover

L176.2+ L165+ SRY2627-
f40551 Greenwade zzzunk
f47096 MacLeod Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f96597 MacLeod Scotland
f46281 McDonald Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f137480 McLeod Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f148833 McLeod zzzunk

The "brothers" don't seem to be found too close to Iberia, perhaps because it isn't home.  ....

Here is the count of SRY2627(M167) itself from our DNA projects, by country:
29 England
22 France
16 Ireland
11 Germany
10 Iberia
10 Scotland
04 Poland, Hungary, Czech Rep. & Ukraine
03 Belgium
03 Sweden & Denmark
01 Italy
01 Wales

The British Isles testing penetration is much higher than the rest, but if you eliminate the Isles it's 1. France 2. Germany 3. Iberia.   Notice the 3 folks from Belgium, a country with a much smaller territory and population than France or Germany.  

I've posted this before, but Germany has the greatest variance in SRY2627. Of those who could list a locale in Germany I've got this:
 Saarland, Bliesen
 Saxony
 Rhineland-Palatinate, Bad Kreuznach, Laubenheim
 Baden-Württemberg, Ortenau, Renchen/Rust
 Baden-Württemberg, Württemberg
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 12:43:22 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 05:29:51 PM »

Some of the new discoveries related to L176.2 are pretty interesting and we've been having a good discussion on Iberian Y DNA on another forum so I thought I'd note some items over here.
There seems to be a general feeling that P312* andSRY2627 are the predominant subclades in Iberia.  Of course P312* is really a paragroup but here is what I've found from our FTDNA projects..... more L21 and U152 to SRY2626.

37 __ P312* (L21- U152- M153- SRY2626- non N-S)
30 __ L21*
15 __ U152
11 __ M153
10 __ SRY2627/M167
09 __ P312* North-South Cluster

From the early results, SRY2627, does not appear to have originated in Iberia.  An SRY2627 project administrator has confirmed that 13 of 13 SRY2627+ people who took the L176.2 test, are L176.2+ so it definitely appears upstream.  Here are SRY2627's brothers found to date:

L176.2+ L165- SRY2627-
f41647 Miller England, North East, Co. Durham, Sunderland
f171839 Noble Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f86995 Pleis Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover

L176.2+ L165+ SRY2627-
f40551 Greenwade zzzunk
f47096 MacLeod Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f96597 MacLeod Scotland
f46281 McDonald Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f137480 McLeod Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
f148833 McLeod zzzunk

The "brothers" don't seem to be found too close to Iberia, perhaps because it isn't home.

SRY2627 is particularly high in frequency in the Catalonia area of Spain, the old Spanish March that the Franks set up as a buffer zone with the Moors.

The isles aspect does cloud the continental story.  However, the Scottish surnames are of clans with very strong (McLeod) or partial (McDonald) norse roots  and the others linked to NE England and I assume Noble was Scottish before planted in Ulster. Hanover is north German. So I would have to say that the upstream form strongly point to northern Europe.  This could be a distortion and chance but it is nevertheless striking. 
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 09:27:57 AM »

wow that is so radically different from Myres etc.  I do wonder though.  I know just from that L21 count that a lot of that does not have a paper trail and less still to a known place.  Why is the majority of the amount that can be located crammed into the NE and close to the Portuguese border with almost zilch in between.  Myres showed very low levels of L21 although he did kind of confirm a peak in the NE.....   Given that L21 is the newest major R1b1b2 subclade defining SNP you would have thought it would be underrepresented not (as Myres would suggest) very significantly overrepresented in project results.  Its a very odd phenomenon.  

I brought this up on reply #120 over on the "R-M269 Article.. by Myres" topic.

From what I can see in the study, Myres only has data on five specific Iberian locations - Seville, Leon, Santander, Valenica and Lisbon as listed in Table S4. That is not a full cross-section of Iberia.

Perhaps more importantly, those Iberian location lines of data are referenced to "1- Alonso S, Flores C, Cabrera V et al: The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape. Eur J Hum Genet 2005; 13: 1293-1302."
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html

I am completely at a loss to explain this.  My understanding is Myres' M529 is equivalent to L21.  Myres has columns in Table S4 for M529(xM222) which seems to make sense as L21*.  There is no detail for Iberia at all that I can find in Tables S2 and S3 but that can be explained by how Table S4 Iberian data has a reference to the Alonso article.  What loses me is that the Alonso study is from 2005.  I don't see any mention of L21 or M529 or S145 anywhere in the article was published in 2005.  Wasn't this before the formal discovery of L21 in 2008?

I'm truly beginning to question some of these academic studies and losing some faith here.

Help, what am I missing?
What you are missing is that Myres used some samples of Santos article and analyzed them fro aditional SNPs, like M529.
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 10:15:59 AM »

What you are missing is that Myres used some samples of Santos article and analyzed them fro aditional SNPs, like M529.
ahhh...  Thanks.

It appears that the reference in the study, at least in the table, used is in error.

Is the Santos data in any of the tables?   or do you have a link to the Santos data?  

I still have a bit of concern about trying to piece together the Myres data and making country-wide projections.  It appears they used different data from multiple other studies that probably used different data collection, sampling methods, etc.

I'm also concerned that they may have used frequency as a proxy for origin in cases where they did not calculate and display the TD / variance data.  

In their defense, I don't think they were trying to pinpoint the origin of P312 or L21 (obviously not if they didn't look hard at Northern France!) or SRY2627 but rather just R-M269 overall and its direction and timing.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 10:34:44 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 06:32:07 AM »

I don´t see any error in the reference, they used some of the samples collected by Santos, not all.
The link where the article was on line is broken, I have a copy in PDF if you are interested
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 10:06:15 AM »

I don´t see any error in the reference, they used some of the samples collected by Santos, not all.
The link where the article was on line is broken, I have a copy in PDF if you are interested
I have the .pdf file. I read through the acknowledgements on page 7 again and also did a search on the article for "Santos" but am coming up dry.

On the other hand, if you go to "Table S4. Frequencies of Y chromsome R sub-haplogroups in Eurasian populations." and look at column B, "Region", for ESP (for España - Spain) and go to the right most column for "References" you will find "1" as the reference cited for all of the Spanish and Portugese "frequency" data lines. If you go to the bottom of Table S4 you will see "1" as "1- Alonso S, Flores C, Cabrera V et al: The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape. Eur J Hum Genet 2005; 13: 1293-1302."  This is the apparent error (in italics above.)

I don't see Santos referenced in addition to Alonso. I did a search for "Santos" in this spreadsheet and come up dry. I also searched Table S2 and S3 and am dry on "Santos" there as well.

Of course the Alonso study on Basques is from 2005, prior to testing for L21/S145.  I'm just trying to figure out where they got their L21 data for Iberia that they display in Table S4. M529(L21) is there and the reference to Alonso is there on the same lines.

Where do you read they used some Santos samples? Do you have a link to the Santos study itself?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 11:24:42 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 01:18:25 PM »

Ok, Alonso S is Santos Alonso, so it is the same article on the Basques.
What Myres et alii did was to take some of the samples collected by Santos Alonso for his article and retest them for additional SNPs, so they list the source of the samples, but the data on some SNPs, including M529, are from Myres et alii themselves.
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 02:55:27 PM »

Ok, Alonso S is Santos Alonso, so it is the same article on the Basques.
What Myres et alii did was to take some of the samples collected by Santos Alonso for his article and retest them for additional SNPs, so they list the source of the samples, but the data on some SNPs, including M529, are from Myres et alii themselves.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm glad to see they are cooperating.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 02:56:45 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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