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alan trowel hands.
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« on: September 06, 2010, 05:27:28 AM »

Its rather an expensive book so I have held of buying it.  Has anyone read it and in a position to give a review.  I really do not want to buy a book at that price if it turns out that it is old ideas and out of date genetics being popularised.  Does it go back to the beaker aspect?
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Jean M
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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2010, 06:43:19 AM »

I have the book. The genetic papers were written for the conference in 2008 and have nothing particularly new to say, except for the proposal by McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a in McGuinness and McCartan men being a La Tene marker.

At least I presume Oppenheimer has nothing new to say. I haven't bothered to read his contribution properly. I just glanced at it long enough to see that he is still peddling the old idea that post-Mesolithic input into the British Isles could only have been slight. Royrvik is cautious. She gives an introduction to the topic of genetic variation mainly. She explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

The main thrust of the book is to explore the idea that Proto-Celtic developed in and spread from Iberia during the Bronze Age. The question of when PIE arrived in Iberia is more of a background issue. Barry suggests that PIE might have arrived in Iberia in the Neolithic c. 5000 BC, and then Celtic developed there by 3000 BC and spread in the Beaker period. He poses this a a series of questions, rather than a firm conclusion.

A linguistic contribution from Isaac pours cold water on the idea that Celtic spread from west to east. He points out that Proto-Celtic developed in contact with other IE languages, and that can only have happened in Eastern Europe.

So Koch and Cunliffe are (as they said at the launch) aiming to stir the pot, looking at both the pros and cons of the core idea.      
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:44:18 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2010, 10:45:43 AM »

If there is a link of P312 and the spread of the Celtic languages*, the relative age as well as the mix of subclades south of the Pyrenees and south of Cisalpine Gaul don't lend to the concept of P312 originating there.

... The main thrust of the book is to explore the idea that Proto-Celtic developed in and spread from Iberia during the Bronze Age. The question of when PIE arrived in Iberia is more of a background issue. Barry suggests that PIE might have arrived in Iberia in the Neolithic c. 5000 BC, and then Celtic developed there by 3000 BC and spread in the Beaker period. He poses this a a series of questions, rather than a firm conclusion.

A linguistic contribution from Isaac pours cold water on the idea that Celtic spread from west to east. He points out that Proto-Celtic developed in contact with other IE languages, and that can only have happened in Eastern Europe. ...

So if linguistics throws cold on water on the thrust of the book, the genetics adds a little more ice to the cold water.

BTW, I've not read the book, but had it on order when I was told by a few others on dna-forums that book offers little new in terms of linking in population genetics. I canceled the order.

* Even in this hypothetical statement I'm not saying P312 (and subclades) is relegated to only Celtic.  It could also be part of the spread of Italic and Germanic languages.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:50:46 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2010, 04:43:03 PM »

Alan,

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory.

http://www.box.net/shared/hxp8ie25yv

http://www.box.net/shared/3vxrpcxib9

http://www.box.net/shared/f74c09ti18

http://www.box.net/shared/oqtrep2dng

I will update the migrations chart once I have finished the book.

Here are some of the highlights
Part 1. Archealogy.
Celtization from the West, the contribution of architecture. Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade.
Fig 1.2 Distribution of mature La Tene culture. Includes the Isles and France, Germany, Switzerland.
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonization. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkens, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Meditterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earlist tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millenium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Meditteranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archealogical ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stela fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.
Part 2: Genetics.
Western Celts? A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genomeshowing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of gnetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradiant from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.
Part 3 Language and Lituraturerigins of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tounge. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurance of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfiels and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotal,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

The Oxbow summary follows:
This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:09:36 PM by Heber » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 05:18:44 PM »

Alan,

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.

I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory.

http://www.box.net/shared/hxp8ie25yv

http://www.box.net/shared/3vxrpcxib9

http://www.box.net/shared/f74c09ti18

http://www.box.net/shared/oqtrep2dng

I will update the migrations chart once I have finished the book.

Here are some of the highlights
Part 1. Archealogy.
Celtization from the West, the contribution of architecture. Barry Cunliffe.
Fig 1.1 Relative density of ancient ‘Celtic looking’ place names. Hot spots on the atlantic Façade.
Fig 1.2 Distribution of mature La Tene culture. Includes the Isles and France, Germany, Switzerland.
Fig 1.3 Greek knowledge of the Celts in the age of Hecataeus and Herodotus. Largely confined to the Mediterranean and Black Sea.
Fig 1.4 A cognitive geography of the Atlantic Zone as it might have been viewed by an Atlantic mariner.
Fig 1.5 Enclave colonization. Europe in the period c 5500 - 4100 showing the two principal routes by which the Neolithic way of life spread through Europe from the southern Balkens, the overland spread via the Danube and North European Plain and the Meditterranean route by sea ultimately to the Atlantic coast of Iberia.
Fig 1.6 The distribution of megalithic tombs shows them to be essentially an Atlantic phenomenon. The earlist tombs  - passage graves dating c 4,500 - 3,500 BC - have a maritime distribution, suggesting that the beliefs and the technologies behind the construction was along the Atlantic seaways.
Fig 1.7 The distribution of jadeite axes from their source in the Western Alps across Europe. The distribution vividly displays the exchange networks then in operation.
Fig 1.8 The distribution of Maritime Bell Beaker in Atlantic Europe during the 3rd Millenium, the crucial nodes in this network were the Tagus estuary and the Morbihan, while major hinterland routes followed the navigable rivers. The map indicates the initial movements were maritime. Trade routes with Ireland and Southern Britain for copper and tin.
Fig 1.9 The extent of the Bell Beaker complex 2700-2200 BC. Major corridors of communication by sea and river. Meditteranean, Atlantic, Danube, Rhine,
Fig 1.10 The interaction of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker Complexes c2500 BC. North European Plain.
The Celts from everywhere and nowhere. Raiumund Karl.
Different origins of Celtic cultural features with Linguistic Celtic origin along the Atlantic Façade, Archealogical ‘La Tene’ origin in central Europe and Historic ‘Druidic’ origin in the Isles.

Newly discovered inscriptions from the south-west of the Iberian peninsula. Tartessian. Amilcar Guerra.
An analysis of about 50 newly discovered stela fromTartessian. Several photographs and sketches.
Part 2: Genetics.
Western Celts? A genetic impression of Britain in Atlantic Europe. Ellen C. Royrvik.
Analysis of MC1R ‘red hair’ frequencies.
Map of Genetic variation in Europe.
Fig. 4.6 shows a Gaulish expansion leading to Iberia, Western France and the Isles.
Fig 4.7 shows a rough Highland and Lowland divide of the Isles with the south east more La Tene Gaulish and the West including Ireland representing a more pan Celtic profile.
Irish Genetics and the Celts. Brian McEvoy and Daniel Bradley.
Fig 5.1 Genetic contour map of Europe showing contours from Anatolia (SE) to the Isles (NW).
Fig 5.2 Genetic map of the Isles calculated from 300,000 SNPs spread across the autosomal genomeshowing Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England.
Fig 5.3 Contour map showing the geographic frequency distribution of the Irish Modal Haplogroup (IMH) and closely related Y-chromosones showing the NW Ireland hot spots.
Fig 5.4 Illustrative Genealogy of the Ui Neill dynasty (and derived surnames) from the 5th C to the present day.  Future testing will provide further insights as well as generating fresh debate on the Irish past.
A reanalysis of multiple prehistoric immigrations to Britain and Ireland aimed at identifying the Celtic contributions. Stephen Oppenheimer.
Fig 6.1 Map of Europe with frequency of ancient place names which were Celtic with hotspots in NW France, Iberia and the Isles.
Fig 6.2 Frequency distribution of genetic Haplogroup R1b. The densest gene flow follows the Atlantic façade, thus favouring Ireland which was then part of the continent.
Fig 6.3 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroups Irb2 (M26) and Irb* (P37.2). The hotspots and possible homeland of Irb in the Balkens with Irb2 further to the West.
Fig 6.4 Frequency distribution of genetic haplogroup J2 (M12) in Europe showing expansion from the Balkens and hot spots in SE and NW Iberia. (Cruciani)
Fig 6.5 Frequency distribution of gnetic haplogroup E3b1a2 in Europe with expansion from the Balkens. Cruciani.
Fig 6.6 Principal Componants Ananysis of Y Chromosones in Western Europe using R1b and R1a1 and I1b2 and I1a showing a gradiant from Ireland via the Isles, Continent to Scandanavia.
Part 3 Language and Lituraturerigins of the Celtic Languages. G.R. Isaac.
An analysis of the Indo European languages.
Tracking the course of the savage tounge. David N. Parsons.
Fig 8.1 British River names.
Fig 8.2-8.5 Various maps of ancient Europe showing occurance of ‘~briga’, ‘~duno’, ‘~duro’,’~mag’ names.
Paradigm Shift? Interpreting Tartessian as Celtic. John T. Koch.
Fig 9.1 The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in the south-western Iberian Peninsula: ‘warrior’ stelae, Phoenician colonies, and Tartessian inscriptions. Shows Keltoi Tartessos region.
Fig 9.1 Celtic Expansion from Halstatt/La Tele central Europe.
Fig 9.3 The Ancient Celtic Languages. Shows Halstatt, Early La Tene, Urnfiels and Atlantic Bronze Age with sharp division of Goidelic, Brittonic and gaulish.
Tartessian Inscriptions: There follows over 70 detailed photographs and transcriptions of stelae many of them with depictions of warriors and their their epitaphs.
“Where the evidence of Tartessos and Tartessian changes the picture is in showing that one of the most dynamic regions influencing Ireland and Britain during the period c 1300 – c900 BC was probably itself Celtic speaking and also in contact with and receiving influences from non Indo European partners in the eastern Meditteranean and north Africa.
Tartessian Linguistic Elements: A detailed alphabet and index of names and analysis of the grammar follows.
Ancient References to Tartessos. A very interesting compendium of classical references to Tartessos from Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and Hebrews, ranging from Aristotal,Cicero, Hecataeus, Herodotus, Livy, Ovid, Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Strabo, Theopompus and biblical references from Genesis, Kings, Chronicles, Psalm, Jeremiah, Jonah.

The Problem of Lusitanian. Dagmar S. Wodtko.
The core region inhabited by Lusitanian’s seems to have comprised the lands between the Douro and Tejo in northern Portugal.

The Oxbow summary follows:
This book is an exploration of the new idea that the Celtic languages originated in the Atlantic Zone during the Bronze Age, approached from various perspectives: pro and con, archaeology, genetics, and philology. This 'Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age' theory represents a major departure from the long-established, but increasingly problematic scenario in which the story of the Ancient Celtic languages and that of peoples called Keltoi 'Celts' are closely bound up with the archaeology of the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures of Iron Age west-central Europe. The 'Celtic from the West' proposal was first presented in Barry Cunliffe's Facing the Ocean (2001) and has subsequently found resonance amongst geneticists. It provoked controversy on the part of some linguists, though is significantly in accord with John Koch's findings in Tartessian (2009). The present collection is intended to pursue the question further in order to determine whether this earlier and more westerly starting point might now be developed as a more robust foundation for Celtic studies. As well as having this specific aim, a more general purpose of Celtic from the West is to bring to an English-language readership some of the rapidly unfolding and too often neglected evidence of the pre-Roman peoples and languages of the western Iberian Peninsula. Celtic from the West is an outgrowth of a multidisciplinary conference held at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth in December 2008. In addition to 11 chapters, the book includes 45 distribution maps and a further 80 illustrations. The conference and collaborative volume mark the launch of a multi-year research initiative undertaken by the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies CAWCS]: Ancient Britain and the Atlantic Zone ABrAZo]. Contributors: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

my goodness Heber I hope you copied and pasted that and didnt type it out!  That sounds interesting.  I know a couple of people who probably will have it so I will borrow it. 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:22:23 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 05:31:53 PM »

I have the book. The genetic papers were written for the conference in 2008 and have nothing particularly new to say, except for the proposal by McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a in McGuinness and McCartan men being a La Tene marker.

At least I presume Oppenheimer has nothing new to say. I haven't bothered to read his contribution properly. I just glanced at it long enough to see that he is still peddling the old idea that post-Mesolithic input into the British Isles could only have been slight. Royrvik is cautious. She gives an introduction to the topic of genetic variation mainly. She explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

The main thrust of the book is to explore the idea that Proto-Celtic developed in and spread from Iberia during the Bronze Age. The question of when PIE arrived in Iberia is more of a background issue. Barry suggests that PIE might have arrived in Iberia in the Neolithic c. 5000 BC, and then Celtic developed there by 3000 BC and spread in the Beaker period. He poses this a a series of questions, rather than a firm conclusion.

A linguistic contribution from Isaac pours cold water on the idea that Celtic spread from west to east. He points out that Proto-Celtic developed in contact with other IE languages, and that can only have happened in Eastern Europe.

So Koch and Cunliffe are (as they said at the launch) aiming to stir the pot, looking at both the pros and cons of the core idea.      
My understanding is its not especially Celtic as in the Gauls but it is big on the Celtic fringe of today.  The face of Britain did a survey of the red hair markers and did find them much much higher in the Celtic fringes and north and west of Britain in general.  I think they found most of the marker in Ireland, then Scotland and also high in the north of England, Wales and the west country.  That would agree with my own personal observations.  On the continent it seems pretty rare.  The only place I have seen a lot of red on the continent was Holland.  There seemed to be little in Germany, France, Spain, Poland, the Baltics etc. I personally think its a pre-Celtic, probably Mesolithic NW European thing.  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:32:21 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 06:21:42 PM »

Alan,

I typed it except for the last paragraph. It gave me an opportunity to review the highlights.
As I am an "hunt and peck" typist it took some time.

BTW Today is red hair day in The Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_head_day

http://sify.com/news/thousands-celebrate-red-hair-day-in-dutch-city-news-international-kjgs4faiifh.html
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:24:52 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 11:12:33 AM »

I have the book. The genetic papers were written for the conference in 2008 and have nothing particularly new to say, except for the proposal by McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a in McGuinness and McCartan men being a La Tene marker.

At least I presume Oppenheimer has nothing new to say. I haven't bothered to read his contribution properly. I just glanced at it long enough to see that he is still peddling the old idea that post-Mesolithic input into the British Isles could only have been slight. Royrvik is cautious. She gives an introduction to the topic of genetic variation mainly. She explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

The main thrust of the book is to explore the idea that Proto-Celtic developed in and spread from Iberia during the Bronze Age. The question of when PIE arrived in Iberia is more of a background issue. Barry suggests that PIE might have arrived in Iberia in the Neolithic c. 5000 BC, and then Celtic developed there by 3000 BC and spread in the Beaker period. He poses this a a series of questions, rather than a firm conclusion.

A linguistic contribution from Isaac pours cold water on the idea that Celtic spread from west to east. He points out that Proto-Celtic developed in contact with other IE languages, and that can only have happened in Eastern Europe.

So Koch and Cunliffe are (as they said at the launch) aiming to stir the pot, looking at both the pros and cons of the core idea.      
My understanding is its not especially Celtic as in the Gauls but it is big on the Celtic fringe of today.  The face of Britain did a survey of the red hair markers and did find them much much higher in the Celtic fringes and north and west of Britain in general.  I think they found most of the marker in Ireland, then Scotland and also high in the north of England, Wales and the west country.  That would agree with my own personal observations.  On the continent it seems pretty rare.  The only place I have seen a lot of red on the continent was Holland.  There seemed to be little in Germany, France, Spain, Poland, the Baltics etc. I personally think its a pre-Celtic, probably Mesolithic NW European thing.  
I think it has been proved that Neanertahls had already the red hair gen.
I recall that Classical sources refer to the Thracians as "red haired", and it was also frequent among Iranians.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 12:07:08 PM »

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.
I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory. ....
What Myres date are you looking at?  I think Table S2 is critical because this is where they publish variance and TD (coalescence time.)

I think the most pertinent categories to look at for P312(S116) (assuming it does have some Celtic association) is P312 All, P312*, it's oldest subclade, U152, and its most immediately known parent, L11*.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Notice the very high variance in Turkey.  I keep seeing Germany and France showing up. S116* is high in Switzerland.  I had considered Vaucluse in SE France has on the edge of the Alps vs the Atlantic fringe.  Does Cunliffe & Koch stretch the Atlantic fringe zone into the Alps?

Quote from: MyresS2excerpt

S116 All
Turkey _____ 13.043
Vaucluse ___ 11.270
Germany ____ 10.245
France _____ 10.097
Slovenia ___ 9.317
Hungary   ____ 9.259
Poland _____ 9.058
England   ____ 8.962
Switzerland  8.610
Ireland ____ 8.152
Slovakia ___ 8.152
Italy ______ 7.637
Romania ____ 7.576
Netherlands  7.565

S116*
Vaucluse ___ 13.889
France _____ 11.745
Switzerland  11.096
Germany ____ 10.211
Netherlands  10.024
Slovakia ___ 8.152
Italy ______ 7.007
England   ____ 6.470
Ireland   ____ 6.370
Denmark ____ 5.737

R-U152
Germany _____ 9.566
Slovakia ____ 9.317
England _____ 8.454
Slovenia ____ 8.454
France ______ 8.282
Italy _______ 7.769
Romania _____ 6.944
Greece ______ 6.729
Switzerland _ 6.577
Poland ______ 6.522
Vaucluse ____ 5.254

R-L11*
Germany _____ 9.481
No other countries listed


The Myres data is spotty so I don't necessarily think it is the end all to support any argument but I don't see "P312 from the west" in it.

Perhaps, we need a lot more deep clade testing and long haplotypes in Iberia# to see what it really holds as far as P312* and L11*.  Maybe it's there in greater variance than has been picked up yet.

# EDIT: and Brittainy
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 02:11:31 PM »

I noticed that Roman (ceaser) whin refering to red-hair are in fact meaning blone-hair. @ the Germans are redder of hair.
In Norse mythology the the Vanir previous population to the Asier (Odins lot) were described as red-haired as oppossed to .
I also read (some where) that only 7% of people in Britian have red-hair at present (I'm nit sure but I think this excluded recent non-european immagrants) In pre-Roman times an estimate was made of 24%. The conclusion was that the drop was sudden and due to the Roman idea that red-hair (real red not ) was unlucky and hence killed off red heads. Not beyond the rilms of possability.
I wsa very intressted in the Neandrthal red-hair and afairly recent study by Max Plank guys who showed more neanderthal commonality to SW Asia and Europe than the rest of the world. The artical was in New Scientist I belive.
Another study showed that red-hair  mutation in neanderthals was on a differant gene than modern humans and had no conection.
I read on an physical anthropology site that red-hair  is part of a family of colour s rangeing from dark brown to to goldern  usually wavey to various degrees. While white-  is part of a family ranging from black through grey /mousey brown to white  usualy straight and has more assosiation with grey-eyes. 
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 04:20:12 PM »

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.
I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory. ....
What Myres date are you looking at?  I think Table S2 is critical because this is where they publish variance and TD (coalescence time.)



Mike, I am struggling with the data in much the same way as you are. My instints say that the age estimates are too old.
I am not suggesting one migration path via the Atlantic. Everyone accepts the Danube, Rhine, Halstatt, Isles route. I am suggesting an alternative, parallel migration route via the Meditteranean and Atlantic.
Tables S2 and S4 are the key tables. I have colour coded them in my links above to highlight the hotspots.

In table S4, I think we can agree that all the Iberian locations tested have the highest frequency for S116* P312* and Ireland has the highest frequency for L21 and M222 as well as M269.
In table S2 Turkey has the highest age and diversity for S116 P312. Unfortunately Iberia is not included in the age and diversity analysis, so we dont know their results.
Myres pointed out the early island hopping from Anatolia to the Greek Islands.
The maps produced by Argidude also suggest this. Cunliffe provides evidence for enclave hopping along the Meditteranean. Cunliffe and Koch provide compelling archealogical and linguistic evidence for the migration path via the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as described in my summary above. The Megalithic cultures and links also reinforce this idea.
When the giants of European Archealogy, Linguistics and Genetics come to these conclusions, I take note.



















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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 07:19:29 PM »

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.
I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory. ....
What Myres date are you looking at?  I think Table S2 is critical because this is where they publish variance and TD (coalescence time.)

Mike, I am struggling with the data in much the same way as you are. My instints say that the age estimates are too old.
I am not suggesting one migration path via the Atlantic. Everyone accepts the Danube, Rhine, Halstatt, Isles route. I am suggesting an alternative, parallel migration route via the Meditteranean and Atlantic.
Tables S2 and S4 are the key tables. I have colour coded them in my links above to highlight the hotspots.
In table S4, I think we can agree that all the Iberian locations tested have the highest frequency for S116* P312* and Ireland has the highest frequency for L21 and M222 as well as M269.
In table S2 Turkey has the highest age and diversity for S116 P312. Unfortunately Iberia is not included in the age and diversity analysis, so we dont know their results.
Myres pointed out the early island hopping from Anatolia to the Greek Islands.
The maps produced by Argidude also suggest this. Cunliffe provides evidence for enclave hopping along the Meditteranean. Cunliffe and Koch provide compelling archealogical and linguistic evidence for the migration path via the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as described in my summary above. The Megalithic cultures and links also reinforce this idea.
When the giants of European Archealogy, Linguistics and Genetics come to these conclusions, I take note.
I sift through and question the genetic data because I'm looking for some facts that will help us tell who is who.  Frequency has been proven to be a poor indicator of ancient origin so the genetic frequency data so I consider that and I recommend that you do as well.  I am ignoring the absolute Myres coalescence times and just looking at their relative nature. Myres seems to hint (and Vince V) that is the right perspective of them.

I don't think Cunliffe and Koch are giants in population genetics but I have read several Cunliffe books and respect his views on archaeology a great deal. I believe there was clearly a Atlantic Bronze Age trade zone and I believe there LBK and Impressed Wares cultures and all the rest and pretty much accept most of what he says there, however, that doesn't tell us who is who amongst these cultures and their movements.
I don't question that R-M269 as being spread across most of Western Europe including the east Mediterranean Islands.  I am seeking to understand where R-P312 originated and how it moved into and/or through Western Europe.

I do agree that a high variance (or Myres estimated TD time) for R-P312 in Turkey is very important.  If the sample size is good enough to be valid that says a lot about where R-P312 is from.  Given that far east of a starting point, multiple paths into Europe is perhaps not only possible, but likely.

I am expecting to see a high relative variance (or coalesence time or diversity) in R-P312 in Central and South Italy if P312 took a Mediterranean path to Iberia and the Atlantic.    I haven't see that yet.  It doesn't mean it is not there, I just haven't seen it yet.  Have you?  That doesn't mean that other forms of R-M269 aren't of high variance in Italy.
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2010, 08:48:51 PM »

I think it has been proved that Neanerthals had already the red hair gene.

Yes, but not the same  one as modern humans.
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2010, 09:10:38 PM »

Royrvik ...  explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

Here is her map with pie charts for the frequency of red and non-red alleles of MC1R in various countries. Note that this is not the same as the frequency of red hair (which requires two of the same allele.)

Denmark, Yorkshire and South-east Wales seem by eye to have the highest levels of the allele.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/Redhairgene.jpg 
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 07:21:18 AM »

I am reading it at the moment. It is a beautiful book with superb illustrations, maps and charts. The contributions of Cunliffe, Koch, McEvoy and Bradley are particularly interesting.
I have taken Myres data and much of it appears to support this theory. ....
What Myres date are you looking at?  I think Table S2 is critical because this is where they publish variance and TD (coalescence time.)

Mike, I am struggling with the data in much the same way as you are. My instints say that the age estimates are too old.
I am not suggesting one migration path via the Atlantic. Everyone accepts the Danube, Rhine, Halstatt, Isles route. I am suggesting an alternative, parallel migration route via the Meditteranean and Atlantic.
Tables S2 and S4 are the key tables. I have colour coded them in my links above to highlight the hotspots.
In table S4, I think we can agree that all the Iberian locations tested have the highest frequency for S116* P312* and Ireland has the highest frequency for L21 and M222 as well as M269.
In table S2 Turkey has the highest age and diversity for S116 P312. Unfortunately Iberia is not included in the age and diversity analysis, so we dont know their results.
Myres pointed out the early island hopping from Anatolia to the Greek Islands.
The maps produced by Argidude also suggest this. Cunliffe provides evidence for enclave hopping along the Meditteranean. Cunliffe and Koch provide compelling archealogical and linguistic evidence for the migration path via the Mediterranean and Atlantic, as described in my summary above. The Megalithic cultures and links also reinforce this idea.
When the giants of European Archealogy, Linguistics and Genetics come to these conclusions, I take note.
I sift through and question the genetic data because I'm looking for some facts that will help us tell who is who.  Frequency has been proven to be a poor indicator of ancient origin so the genetic frequency data so I consider that and I recommend that you do as well.  I am ignoring the absolute Myres coalescence times and just looking at their relative nature. Myres seems to hint (and Vince V) that is the right perspective of them.

I don't think Cunliffe and Koch are giants in population genetics but I have read several Cunliffe books and respect his views on archaeology a great deal. I believe there was clearly a Atlantic Bronze Age trade zone and I believe there LBK and Impressed Wares cultures and all the rest and pretty much accept most of what he says there, however, that doesn't tell us who is who amongst these cultures and their movements.
I don't question that R-M269 as being spread across most of Western Europe including the east Mediterranean Islands.  I am seeking to understand where R-P312 originated and how it moved into and/or through Western Europe.

I do agree that a high variance (or Myres estimated TD time) for R-P312 in Turkey is very important.  If the sample size is good enough to be valid that says a lot about where R-P312 is from.  Given that far east of a starting point, multiple paths into Europe is perhaps not only possible, but likely.

I am expecting to see a high relative variance (or coalesence time or diversity) in R-P312 in Central and South Italy if P312 took a Mediterranean path to Iberia and the Atlantic.    I haven't see that yet.  It doesn't mean it is not there, I just haven't seen it yet.  Have you?  That doesn't mean that other forms of R-M269 aren't of high variance in Italy.

Below is a quote from the Myres study. I will research the specific Meditteranean data this evening.

“Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116
assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116*
(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas
the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy,
France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15%
in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l). Last, the M529
clade is highest (25–50%) in England and Ireland (Figure 1m and n),
with the M222 sub-clade (Figure 1o) mainly restricted to Ireland”.
“The initial arrival of farmers from Southwest Asia to the present-day
Greece occurred ca 9000 years BP.38 Outside of Southeast Europe, two
episodes of early farming are attested archeologically.39 The first
involved a maritime colonization of Crete ca 9000 years BP and
Southern Italy ca 8000 years BP and subsequently spread to coastal
Mediterranean France and Spain, as exemplified by impressed/cardial
pottery. The second involved a migration to Central Europe, from
Hungary to France, characterized by LBK (ca 7500 years BP). Within
a 3k-year period, the agricultural economy spread across Europe,
terminating in Britain and Scandinavia B6000 years BP”.39

It would appear that the above confirms the two migration routes with the maritime migration being the first and oldest migration. It is interesting that the navigation capabilities of these people were so develoiped as early as 9,000 BCE, that they could transport themselves and presumably livestock. I remember Anthony speculating that each boat carried several tonnes of cargo.

Below is the list of contributers to the Myres study and the Koch and Cunliffe books.
That is an awful lot of talent focused on this issue.

Contributers to "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era
founder effect in Central and Western Europe":
Natalie M Myres1, Siiri Rootsi2, Alice A Lin3, Mari Ja¨rve2, Roy J King3, Ildus Kutuev2,4, Vicente M Cabrera5, Elza K Khusnutdinova4, Andrey Pshenichnov2,6, Bayazit Yunusbayev2,4, Oleg Balanovsky2,6, Elena Balanovska6, Pavao Rudan7, Marian Baldovic2,8, Rene J Herrera9, Jacques Chiaroni10, Julie Di Cristofaro10, Richard Villems2,
Toomas Kivisild11 and Peter A Underhill*,

Contributors to Celtic from the West: (Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra; (Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik; (Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.

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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 12:32:31 PM »

Below is a quote from the Myres study. I will research the specific Meditteranean data this evening.
“Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116
assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116*
(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas
the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy,
France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15%
in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l). Last, the M529
clade is highest (25–50%) in England and Ireland (Figure 1m and n),
with the M222 sub-clade (Figure 1o) mainly restricted to Ireland”.
....
Heber, I'll respond over on the topic about this article, but please note you are quoting frequency percentages.  I agree that a frequency of 0% may be  important as far as tracing an expansion point, but generally speaking frequency %'s are not that useful.  It tells you who is where today, not thousands of years ago.  It is nice for determining the "end point" (today) though, and we have to start somewhere and move back in time.

P.S. You don't need to list all of the authors, credits, etc. for me. I understand they are credible.  They also have plenty of caveats included about their aging calculations.  I do have a concern about applying spotty sampling to projections by whole countries. I think they should have listed a caveat for that. Maybe I missed it.  The book authors are credible with me too, but their application of genetic data seems a little behind.
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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 12:50:56 PM »

I really cannot see any support for a Celts from the west model if it is in any way linked with S116.  Myres seems to confirm that S116's immediate ancestor travelled through central Europe.  It also implies that S116*, U152* likely happened in or around the area where the Upper Rhone, Upper Rhine approach and appears to imply that L21 also happened soon after, presumably in or around north-central France.  So it seems that the Celts out of the west idea is not supported by genetics. 

I have not read the details but it is also clear to me that the L21 world of Ireland and Atlantic Britain are most connected to France and not Atlantic Iberia where L21 is extremely scarce in Myres and a portion of the small amount there seems to be a Medieval cluster. 

I think a modified model would see NW France as the crucial common link with the direct links probably being:

Iberia-western France 
western France-northern France
 northern France-Britain/Ireland
Britain-Ireland (both directions).   

That would fit the archaeology of the Bronze and Iron Ages far better and also fits the DNA evidence.  L21 really points to France not Iberia. 
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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 12:56:54 PM »

I have the book. The genetic papers were written for the conference in 2008 and have nothing particularly new to say, except for the proposal by McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a in McGuinness and McCartan men being a La Tene marker.

At least I presume Oppenheimer has nothing new to say. I haven't bothered to read his contribution properly. I just glanced at it long enough to see that he is still peddling the old idea that post-Mesolithic input into the British Isles could only have been slight. Royrvik is cautious. She gives an introduction to the topic of genetic variation mainly. She explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

The main thrust of the book is to explore the idea that Proto-Celtic developed in and spread from Iberia during the Bronze Age. The question of when PIE arrived in Iberia is more of a background issue. Barry suggests that PIE might have arrived in Iberia in the Neolithic c. 5000 BC, and then Celtic developed there by 3000 BC and spread in the Beaker period. He poses this a a series of questions, rather than a firm conclusion.

A linguistic contribution from Isaac pours cold water on the idea that Celtic spread from west to east. He points out that Proto-Celtic developed in contact with other IE languages, and that can only have happened in Eastern Europe.

So Koch and Cunliffe are (as they said at the launch) aiming to stir the pot, looking at both the pros and cons of the core idea.      

Jean-did they dabble in the 'Atlantic Bronze Age' idea.  I have never found this at all convincing and certainly where Irish metalwork was found on the continent it usually seemed to be northern France rather than Iberia. I really think NW France was the only place in contact with both ends of the Atlantic network. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 01:04:31 PM »

Royrvik ...  explodes the idea that red hair is particularly Celtic.

Here is her map with pie charts for the frequency of red and non-red alleles of MC1R in various countries. Note that this is not the same as the frequency of red hair (which requires two of the same allele.)

Denmark, Yorkshire and South-east Wales seem by eye to have the highest levels of the allele.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/Redhairgene.jpg  

That is odd.  It contradicts a previous recent study of the same marker that was reported in the UK broadsheets and stated that Ireland was the highest for the marker at 40%. I do not recall the details but I thought it was something to do with the face of Britain project.  I would like to know the sampling.  Sampling location would be crucial.  Red hair in Ireland is actually far more common in the remoter NW and west than in the east and is clearly an early characteristic surviving in remote areas.  It is a hell of a lot less common in the east. 
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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 02:31:21 PM »

Royrvik is a researcher on Sir Walter Bodmer's People of the British Isles project, which supplied the data for the Face of Britain C4 documentary.  

  • The British data for the map with pie charts that I posted came from that project.
  • Swedish and Irish data came from R. M. Harding, E Healey, et al., Evidence for variable selective pressures at MC1R, American Journal of Human Genetics 6(4) (2000), pp. 1351-61*  
  • Danish data from Megel-From et al (2009)**

* I have added this paper to the Mini-Library. See under Population Genetics> Autosomal > Pigmentation.

** This paper was already in the Mini-Library - same folder.
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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2010, 02:47:22 PM »

since red-hair has come up in this topic I was wondering if their are any (other) physical  or other traits that can  be assosiated with R1b1 or its sub-clads .
If so where can I find out. A few things seem to  from SW Asia/W step area
Can we even make a good guess what these people looked like with genetic evidance?
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2010, 03:15:15 PM »

Below is a quote from the Myres study. I will research the specific Meditteranean data this evening.

“Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116
assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116*
(xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia (Figure 1j), whereas
the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy,
France and Western Poland, with additional instances exceeding 15%
in some regions of England and Germany (Figure 1l). Last, the M529
clade is highest (25–50%) in England and Ireland (Figure 1m and n),
with the M222 sub-clade (Figure 1o) mainly restricted to Ireland”.
“The initial arrival of farmers from Southwest Asia to the present-day
Greece occurred ca 9000 years BP.38 Outside of Southeast Europe, two
episodes of early farming are attested archeologically.39 The first
involved a maritime colonization of Crete ca 9000 years BP and
Southern Italy ca 8000 years BP and subsequently spread to coastal
Mediterranean France and Spain, as exemplified by impressed/cardial
pottery. The second involved a migration to Central Europe, from
Hungary to France, characterized by LBK (ca 7500 years BP). Within
a 3k-year period, the agricultural economy spread across Europe,
terminating in Britain and Scandinavia B6000 years BP”.39

It would appear that the above confirms the two migration routes with the maritime migration being the first and oldest migration. It is interesting that the navigation capabilities of these people were so develoiped as early as 9,000 BCE, that they could transport themselves and presumably livestock. I remember Anthony speculating that each boat carried several tonnes of cargo.

I think you should have quoted also the last part of the paper:

"Our results implicate complexity in the post-glacial formation and
expansion of populations in Europe during the past ca 10 000 years.
The narrow temporal window between potential expansions by
Mesolithic foragers at the onset of the Holocene (10k years ago)
and pioneer farmers from the Near East during the early Neolithic into
Central Europe
(7.5k years ago) is exceedingly difficult to discern with
genetic tools. Thus, invoking the pronounced transformation of the
pre-Neolithic European gene pool by intrusive pioneer farmers from
the Near East must be viewed cautiously
especially when such an
argument is based on just a single incompletely resolved haplogroup.
Although the transition to agriculture was a pivotal event in human
history, the spread of specific haplogroups can occur in more than one
migration event. Evidence of trade networks based on the exchange of
commodities (eg salt, amber) along northwest to south and southeast
directions, eg the Iron Age Hallstatt Culture, provided oppor-
tunities for potential gene dispersion. However, the magnitude of
such putative commodity-driven gene flows remains uncertain
until direct evidence from ancient DNA is provided in combination
with potentially even more high-resolution and informative sub-
haplogroup fractions relevant to particular trade routes or cultural
horizons are detected and used to test hypotheses concerning
post-Neolithic histories".
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