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rms2
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« on: June 12, 2010, 12:09:44 PM »

This might seem obvious to those in the know . . . or it might not make any sense at all, but here goes.

I was thinking about the various attempts at estimating the age of the R1b1b2 subclades in order to figure out where they came from, but it seems to me we are missing an orderly approach that might yield some interesting results.

First off, all of R1b1b2 (M269) descends from a common ancestor, regardless of whether one is positive or negative for this or that downstream SNP. So, why not begin with that fact and take the variance of ALL of R1b1b2? Include ALL R1b1b2 haplotypes, regardless of subclade. That should yield some kind of cline that should tell us something. Unless I am much mistaken, I believe that approach yields a general SE to NW or E to W cline, with the oldest R1b1b2 in the East or Southeast and the youngest in the West or Northwest.

Next, follow the phylogenetic tree to R1b1b2a (L23) and take its variance, leaving out that R1b1b2 (M269) that is L23-. That means including the haplotypes of all those who are L23+, including those belonging to subclades that are downstream of L23. What that would amount to is taking the first group (described above) and simply excluding those who are L23-.

The next step would be to take that group and exclude only those who are L51-, thereby getting the variance of all those who are L51+ (which would include all those who are positive for the SNPs downstream of L51).

See what I am driving at?

Each step would strip off the haplotypes of a predecessor SNP, leaving the older, ancestral stuff behind like a spent stage of a multi-stage rocket. Theoretically, we should get a picture of the path of R1b1b2 and each of its subclades this way based on haplotype variance.

Merely taking the variance of each subclade separately seems to me to miss the big picture. We need a step-by-step approach that proceeds up the phylogenetic tree from root to trunk to branch to twig.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 12:11:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 01:36:20 PM »

This is precisely what I have done from many years, in the last times with the Argiedude's help, and my answer is ITALY, at least from R1b1* to R-L51. Then migration to Central Europe, Eastward and Westward the Alpes.
Why to exclude R1b1b2/L23-? The most ancient and interesting samples are in Italy, those with YCAII=17-23 and among the three tested in my town or nearby I found an R1b1b2/L23+ (me) an R1b1b2/L23-, my relative Federighi, and an R1b1b2 (probably U152+) my friend Malvolti. I have a topic on this on Worldfamilies.
 
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 01:45:45 PM »

This is precisely what I have done from many years, in the last times with the Argiedude's help, and my answer is ITALY, at least from R1b1* to R-L51. Then migration to Central Europe, Eastward and Westward the Alpes.
Why to exclude R1b1b2/L23-? The most ancient and interesting samples are in Italy, those with YCAII=17-23 and among the three tested in my town or nearby I found an R1b1b2/L23+ (me) an R1b1b2/L23-, my relative Federighi, and an R1b1b2 (probably U152+) my friend Malvolti. I have a topic on this on Worldfamilies.
 


You don't exclude L23- until you get to the stage where you must move past L23- to track the movement of the bulk of R1b1b2. You begin the tracking process with M269+, which includes all those who are L23-, as well as those who are L23+.

I don't think the answer is Italy, but the way to tell, if you want to backtrack that far, would be to begin the process with either R1b1 (P25) or even further back, with R1b (M343).

 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 01:46:39 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 02:12:38 PM »

Argiedude, using also my previous researches, has done many spreadsheets and maps here on Worldfamilies on "Dienekes' blog" on "Genealogy-dna" and certainly on "forums-dna" (but I don't frequent that forum after I was banned). You can see: everything is documented.
Unfortunately I haven't seen postings of Argiedude in this last month and probably more, but he wrote to me a message here a few days ago. I hope he is working on this and to see soon some results of his.

I have my PC out and am not able to do maps, spreadsheets etc.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2010, 03:58:48 PM »

Argiedude, using also my previous researches, has done many spreadsheets and maps here on Worldfamilies on "Dienekes' blog" on "Genealogy-dna" and certainly on "forums-dna" (but I don't frequent that forum after I was banned). You can see: everything is documented.
Unfortunately I haven't seen postings of Argiedude in this last month and probably more, but he wrote to me a message here a few days ago. I hope he is working on this and to see soon some results of his.

I have my PC out and am not able to do maps, spreadsheets etc.

"Documented" is one thing, documented in a way that is convincing and easy to understand is another.

I have not yet seen anyone lay out the path of R1b1b2 in the systematic manner I described in my original post, beginning with all available R1b1b2 haplotypes and working from there up the trunk of the phylogenetic R tree to its branches.

The one who has come closest - and I have had to pick this up over time in reading a post here and a post there - is Vince Vizachero.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:59:30 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 04:54:04 PM »

I agree.  There is sort of a grey area between the ht35 and the major diownstream clades of Europe like L21, U152, U106 etc.  I wish we had a better idea of P310/L11 and even of S116.  I am not even talking about fine detail here.  I just mean establishing what route these took west from the ht 35 core in the SE.  There is only really two strong possibilities - the Med. and the Danube (or both).  It seems every time someone uses variance to look into this that everyone become skeptical and it is rejected (for example Tim ad Argiedude). 
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 06:25:13 PM »

I like this idea, but I'm not so sure we'll see the resolution we would like.   The Balkans, Eastern and much of Central Europe are undertested and especially for SNPs/67 markers.  Plus, there was probably alot of R1b1b2+ back-migration (Celts for example) who would alter the variance picture of non-snp tested samples.  Imo, these places are the big unknowns to understanding the history of R1b in Europe.  I do agree with Tim Janzen that the oldest Ht 15 types (L11, P312) are in the east, but whether these mostly represent IE incursions from the steppe or farmers originally from SW Asia who were absorbed by IE culture, I'm kind of up in the air on that.  Maybe, it's both depending on the subclades.  Hopefully, some Funnelbeaker Y-dna will be found by the Max Planck researchers.

I found high variance in Ht35 types in YHRD in the Proto-IE steppe region, but as we know YHRD is very limited in markers and especially snp's.  Also, the Balkan Ht 35 variance wasn't disproportionately lower.  Then there is the R1b1* and other R1b-M269*'s component along the Mediterranean.  I think some of these might represent the early spread of agriculture with Cardial-ware people.  As mentioned above Argiedude made some interesting variance maps which I think are somewhat in line with Janzen's calculations.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 06:27:31 PM by MHammers » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 07:34:35 PM »

I think one would certainly need plenty of haplotypes from all over Europe and Western Asia and perhaps even North Africa, with as many markers as possible.

Overcoming all the movement and mixing that has gone on in the Old World is probably impossible, but I think we could come up with something that would be reasonably reliable.
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MHammers
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 09:37:49 PM »

I was thinking we could take the highest variance of a subclade and compare that geographically against it descendant subclades highest variance location.  

For example, let's say the highest variance for L11* is in Bulgaria (likely origin in this case) and the highest variance for P312 is in south Poland then that would seem to give some sense of direction of travel.  Somewhere, in between Bulgaria and Poland would be the P312 node man, maybe Hungary or Romania.  This is kind of what others have done.  Looking at lower variance locations probably wouldn't work because they generally tell nothing about origin, only later spread.  

How would we interpret locations with so many subclades included, other than what the members have provided?  For example, a large sample including everything from R-M269* all through the new subclades might give a very high variance, but the majority of the sample would still be derived from Atlantic Europe/Colonials which is not the origin of R-M269.  The variance might get lower as you remove the upstream snp, but would this only show a SE to NW cline?  I'm open to ideas on how one could crunch these numbers down more.  One may have to look at frequency and diversity of haplotypes in observed areas as well.
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 07:30:54 AM »

Those are good points. I agree we would have to balance out the West European and especially British Isles components in the database, perhaps by just taking a representative sample of those haplotypes and not letting them outnumber the others.
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2010, 08:51:49 PM »

For some possible R1b+  movement from East to West by land, could they have split when they reached the Alps? North and South?

(Some going south into Italy and some into Austria and on to N/W Europe?)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 08:53:05 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 09:29:41 PM »

(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Armenian DNA Project Results
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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MHammers
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 09:34:47 PM »

(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/


Good find, this is roughly contemporary with Maikop of the north Caucasus.  The part about horsebreeding suggests a strong link to the steppe.
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A.D.
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2010, 05:43:27 PM »

Has any considered Doggerland a large valley erom the north sea down the english channel (checking this out is a must)
this joined england to europe  Ireland was joined to scotland  in the Paleo/maeso lithic and earlier spain
doggerland may have been populated by 10'000+
it has been estamated to have flooded by glacial melt  around 12,000 bc (if i remember correctly)at the rate of 200 metres per year
at this rate migration must total and relitavely sudden
I think these may be the m343 people from the east. these were mobile hunter gathers and more technicly advanced than thought before
l'm wondering  what happened to the from the southern Spia/S.France end? may be wales/ireland
some notable people have linked solutian (european) culture to clovis (american) at around 15,000 bc claiming to have genetic proof (do'nt know what type but i think it is Y- chrom.)
make you think of Europe differently.
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MHammers
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2010, 06:02:11 PM »

R1b was probably in SW Asia at the time of Doggerland.  Doggerland was much more likely to be populated by HG I men and U5 women.

There is no genetic evidence tying Solutrean to Clovis.  That idea is based on mtdna HG X which is very rare in Europe, but it is not enough to suggest an Atlantic route into the Americas.  The projectile points while similiar at first, show Clovis does have Siberian antecedants upon more thorough examination.  Fascinating theory, though.
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OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2010, 08:05:37 PM »

I read this news article a week ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9188095

I guess we need to find human remains in the Americas which match Europeans of that time.
 
I don't know what the mtdna-x connection is.
Were ancient human remans found in Florida which were found to be X ?

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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2010, 09:08:08 PM »

I'm not sure about X being found in ancient remains, but it is present in extant Amerindians at low levels.

I think this is what the known HG picture is for ancient Americans,

ydna=C,Q
Mtdna=A,B,C,D,X
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2010, 05:36:48 AM »

the archaeology still points to the importance of Doggerland in the settling of Britain in the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic.  Even the narrow blade Mesolithic groups that dominated Scotland, Ireland and the extreme north of England have their earliest dates on the east coast of Scotland which suggests they entered from the east (c. 8500BC (reaching Ireland by c. 8000BC).  However genetics has moved on and there is no way we can connect R1b1b2 of any type with European hunter gatherer groups.  I agree with the post that suggested the hunter gather groups of Europe were probably largely various types of I clades.  Both the dates and the geography of the earliest R1b1b2 are all wrong.  It looks very likely that R1b1b2 entered Europe in the Neolithic at some point (late Neolithic seems to be most popular). 
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 06:16:45 PM »

Europe's prehistoric tombs built in bursts

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/08/barrow-tombs-of-prehistoric-europe-built-in-bursts/1

Western Europe's massive prehistoric tombs were built in a burst of activity over a few centuries around 4000 BC, suggests dating evidence, rather than continuously throughout the Stone Age.

In the current European Journal of Archaeology, archaeologist Chris Scarre of the United Kingdom's Durham University, looks at the latest dating of "megalithic" prehistoric tombs stretching from Sweden to Spain. The mound-shaped burial sites are better known as "barrows" in Great Britain, or "passage tombs" for their intersecting halls of corbel stones.

"It trivializes the tombs to call it a fad, but building such structures seems to have become a fashion where great numbers were built and then there was a cessation for centuries," Scarre says, in an interview. Improved dating of
materials such as birch bark, bone and stone left in the tombs now reveals the clustered construction times of the mounds, he says.

Rather than a single "megalithic" culture stretching across Europe, the outburst of mound tombs likely represents an idea reaching local cultures, he suggests, which then "stopped and started" across the centuries. "One big implication is the realization that the people buried in this fashion represent only a small fraction of the people who were alive then," Scarre says. "Until the Roman era, thoughtful burial of the dead may have been a rare thing in this part of Europe."

By Dan Vergano
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 08:09:58 AM »

I doubt it will be the last word on mound builders.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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