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Author Topic: so what does the new study mean for L21?  (Read 12583 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2010, 05:59:40 AM »

The Gallic people most important in the current departement of Alpes de Htes Provences, were Ésubiens (Latin Esuvii or Esubii).

The etymology of their names seems to be "Esus", one of the most important gods of Celtic mythology. And, it is the equivalent of the Irish god Dagda.

Something to say about the etymology of Jerome of the Esubii/Esuvii linked with Gallic god Esus.
Esus (see also the word “esono” of the Osco-Umbrians) is perhaps linked with the Etruscan name for god AIS (plural AISAR) and probably is a name linked more with Rhaetians- Etruscans-Camuns than with Indo-Europeans. But Caesar (De bello gallico, II 34.1, III 7.4, V 24.2) speaks always of this people as “Essuvii” (nominative plural) and not “Esuvii”. I think that double “s” shall make us think to IE and  Gallic *ecs > es(s) “out” (see Latin “ex”) more than to the name of the god Esus.
The name of the Essubii/Essuvii could be from the word that gives Latin “exuo”, from *exduo (Ancient Greek ͗'εκδύω), then, for the fall of -d-, this name should have  an “Italic” origin more than a Northern Celtic one. Then probably their ancient origin should be thought more in the region around Italy than further of it. The other people near the Northern Essuvii of North France are the Veneti and Venelli (and I don’t speak of the others) whose names of course are linked with the Italian Veneti.
Who has pointed out to a Celt people from Central Europe, to R-U152  as a Celt haplogroup, to a Celt nationalism and reproves me to be an Italian nationalist, forgives that all these peoples have a common origin, that they migrated frequently all over Central/Western/South Europe (they have come originally from Central Europe or from Italy).
It remains fixed, I think,  that all R1b1 haplogroups came out from the Italian refugium, that Rhaetians-Etruscans-Camuns and (Western) Indo-Europeans (centum languages) were probably related from very ancient times (I think from the Younger Dryas). Satem languages are derived from the Centum ones and not the contrary. Not by chance where arrived the centum-Tocharians we find the most recent haplogroups of R like the “Italian” R-U152 of the Bashkirs.

If my etymology of “Essuvii” is right, the name would mean “the undressed”, those who don’t wear like the others. The other name by which Essuvii are known is “Saii”. This name could be linked  with Latin “sagum” (the same in English), which is thought to be a Celt word.
Celt “Esus” is interpreted like “master”, but on the Paris Cathedral is portrayed with a short dress.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 09:07:45 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2010, 08:02:01 AM »

But where did Jerome find that Essuvii lived in South-East France? Did he perhaps mean Oxybii? We don’t know if they were the same people. Anyway a Ligurian (or Italian) origin of this tribe and of the others named above could be likely.

“The Oxybii (Ὀξύβιοι) were a Ligurian tribe living on the Mediterranean coast of France near Massallia. The border with the Ligurian Deciates (Δεκιῆται) being to the west of Antipolis and east of Forum Julii (Smith, entry on Oxybii). The Oxybii attacked Massallia in 155 BCE (Polybius, Histories, 33.7) and in consequence their allies the Romans sent a commission, consisting of Flaminius, Popilius Laenas, and Lucius Pupius. When these were attacked at the Oxybian coastal city of Aegitna (Polybius, Histories, 33.10), the Romans dispatched an army under the consul Quintus Opimius, who defeated the Oxybii and the Deciates at the battle of Aegitna, three kilometres north of Antipolis (Cosson, p.21; Polybius, Histories, 33.11)” (from Wikipedia).

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Maliclavelli


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jerome72
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« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2010, 09:30:18 AM »

But where did Jerome find that Essuvii lived in South-East France? Did he perhaps mean Oxybii? We don’t know if they were the same people. Anyway a Ligurian (or Italian) origin of this tribe and of the others named above could be likely.


Regarding the Esubiens of Alps, I found this information on the French wikipedia (I have not found in the English version)
First here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histoire_des_Alpes-de-Haute-Provence
and here: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esubiens

Some think they are cited on "the trophée des Alpes":
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troph%C3%A9e_des_Alpes
or in english: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium
with the name VESVBIANI

In this case, I do not know why it is called in French, Esubiens (even if U and V are the same letters).
Their location is not well known.
Or they are the valley of Ubaye http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e_de_l%27Ubaye
or valley in the valley of Vésubie (if Esubiens are Vesubiens)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2010, 09:39:41 AM »

"Ils ne doivent pas être confondus avec les Ésuviens, cités par Jules César, et situés en Bretagne ou en Normandie".

Then if there isn't a link between them, the high percentage of R-L21 around the Alps can't be explained by an Armorican influence, but must be explained otherwise and keep in mind my hypotheses.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 09:43:08 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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jerome72
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« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2010, 10:25:26 AM »


I think I found why we speak in French "Esubiani" and not "Vesubiani" on the listing of "Trophy of the Alps"
Pline l'ancien did not transcribe correctly what was written.
140 fragments of the inscription were found and Jules Formigé corrected Vesubiani by Esubiani.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/25607871

"Ils ne doivent pas être confondus avec les Ésuviens, cités par Jules César, et situés en Bretagne ou en Normandie".

Then if there isn't a link between them, the high percentage of R-L21 around the Alps can't be explained by an Armorican influence, but must be explained otherwise and keep in mind my hypotheses.


Je suis tout à fait d'accord... Je ne pense pas qu'il s'agisse du même peuple.
Mais si deux peuples ont le même nom, on peut supposé qu'ils ont des racines communes...
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2010, 03:12:32 PM »

Je suis tout à fait d'accord... Je ne pense pas qu'il s'agisse du même peuple.
Mais si deux peuples ont le même nom, on peut supposé qu'ils ont des racines communes...
I think this too, in fact I linked Veneti from Armorica with Veneti from Italy. Re. Essuvii I gave also an etymology that presupposed an origin near Italy, among Ligurians. The fact that Saii can derive from *Sagii it is a linguistic change known in Gallic, then probably we have a mix of peoples and languages, all around Rhaetian-Etruscan-Camun/Western Indo-European/Italic-Celtic-Germanic/Ligurian etc., a history that must still be written.
Probably it would be interesting to try if there is a link between Oxybii (probably from Greek of Massilia: Oxyboi) and Essubii/Essuvii.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 03:15:27 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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A.D.
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« Reply #131 on: September 29, 2010, 02:40:41 PM »

I noticed  Esus Asir etc have been linked to Dagda (Irish) who in turn is linked to Thor etc (Germanic) one of the Aseir thought to mean from Asia.
The origin could be very old both were `the peoples God' as opposed to Odin and Lugh `the Warriors God' The former carry a club/hammer
the later a spear that `flies' for ever some times thrown with a sling or stick. If this sling/stick refers to an Atlatl very very old.
There is also an incdent between the Tuatha De Dannan and the former inhabitants of Ireland the Fir Bolg in which the battle was delayed until the Tuatha had big heavy stabbing spears like the Fir Bolg. If this refers to the introduction of throwing spears very very very old. The origins maybe pre-messolithic.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »

I've updated the spreadsheet is at
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

There 1939 Confirmed L21+ haploytypes, including 1377 that are 67 in length. There are also 162 ht's on a separate tab that have STR markers beyond 67 tested and in Ysearch. All known subclades, including M222+, are included.

Here are the counts of confirmed people by downstream SNP:

M222+ ____ 446
L226+ ____ 62
L159.2+ __ 48
L193+ ____ 24
P314.2+ __ 11
L144+ ____ 7

R-L21** __ 103
- This is a paragroup, not a subclade, that is ancestral(negative) for M222 and the L21 downstream package SNP's.

Keep in mind that M222 has been tested for several years so the other SNP's are probably understated relative to it.

There is an R-L21 modal Ysearch ID - K9VGV.  It's pretty much the same the Western Atlantic Modal.  We do have markers beyond 67 in the Ysearch record now. 

Regards, Mike
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:31:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #133 on: October 11, 2010, 03:26:49 PM »

The Gallic people most important in the current departement of Alpes de Htes Provences, were Ésubiens (Latin Esuvii or Esubii).

The etymology of their names seems to be "Esus", one of the most important gods of Celtic mythology. And, it is the equivalent of the Irish god Dagda.

Something to say about the etymology of Jerome of the Esubii/Esuvii linked with Gallic god Esus.
Esus (see also the word “esono” of the Osco-Umbrians) is perhaps linked with the Etruscan name for god AIS (plural AISAR) and probably is a name linked more with Rhaetians- Etruscans-Camuns than with Indo-Europeans. But Caesar (De bello gallico, II 34.1, III 7.4, V 24.2) speaks always of this people as “Essuvii” (nominative plural) and not “Esuvii”. I think that double “s” shall make us think to IE and  Gallic *ecs > es(s) “out” (see Latin “ex”) more than to the name of the god Esus.
The name of the Essubii/Essuvii could be from the word that gives Latin “exuo”, from *exduo (Ancient Greek ͗'εκδύω), then, for the fall of -d-, this name should have  an “Italic” origin more than a Northern Celtic one. Then probably their ancient origin should be thought more in the region around Italy than further of it. The other people near the Northern Essuvii of North France are the Veneti and Venelli (and I don’t speak of the others) whose names of course are linked with the Italian Veneti.
Who has pointed out to a Celt people from Central Europe, to R-U152  as a Celt haplogroup, to a Celt nationalism and reproves me to be an Italian nationalist, forgives that all these peoples have a common origin, that they migrated frequently all over Central/Western/South Europe (they have come originally from Central Europe or from Italy).


I studied Latin for 5 years and read Caesar's De Bello Gallico (The Gallic Wars), and the people he talks about are the Suebi (Suevi), who gave their name to Swabia in South West Germany and Northern Switzerland, and were a Germanic tribe threatening to invade Gallia Transalpina:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

The Veneti are of course synonymous with the Wends, an early name for Western Slavs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2010, 09:09:42 AM »

Are you sure that Suebi and Essuvii are the same people? It seems to me a little bit believable.  Perhaps you studied Latin for five years, but certainly not glottology for forty like me.

“De Bello Gallico (The Gallic Wars)”, actually The Gallic War.
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Maliclavelli


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