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Norwich
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« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2010, 03:49:54 PM »

Apparently Myres et al made little effort at obtaining a truly representative sample in France. Just look at Table S4 and the results for L21 versus U152. Small differences in terms of absolute numbers look more impressive when they are chalked up as the percentages of small sample sizes.

L21 (xM222):

France East  N=25  8% (2 individuals out of 25)

France [?]     N=16  0% (0 individuals out of 16)

France West  N=14  14.3% (2 individuals out of 14)

France South N=38   7.9% (3 individuals out of 38)


U152 (subclade unspecified):

France East  16% (4 individuals out of 25)

France [?]      18.8% (3 individuals out of 16)

France West  21.4% (3 individuals out of 14)

France South 10.5% (4 individuals out of 38)


Notice a number of things. First, Northern France was not represented at all, which is clear from the maps that show the locations from which the samples were taken. Second, nearly 68% (63 of 93) of the French samples were drawn from the South and East, precisely where U152 is believed to be most frequent. Third, the sample sizes are small.

Thus, in a relatively small sample heavily skewed to the South and East of France, L21 (xM222) came out with 7.5% of the total, and U152 came out with 15% of the total.

Had Northern France been sampled, and if Western France had been sampled more extensively, what might the results have been?

Note that in Western France the difference between L21 and U152 was a single individual: there were two L21s out of 14 and three U152s out of the same 14.

The biggest differences between L21 and U152 in Myres et al came in France East (believed to be U152's stronghold anyway), where L21 got 2 individuals and U152 got 4 (out of 25), and in (just plain) "France" (whatever that means), where L21 got zero and U152 got 3 (out of 16).

Again, notice that the sample sizes were small, and the differences in absolute results are likewise small (2 versus 4, for example).



What is needed is for Ramos-Luis and crew to publish the actual detailed results of their landmark R1b study of France in 2009.  The ONLY statement of worth is the following:  

"R1b1b2*(xR1b1b2d,e,g,h) was the most frequent haplogroup in
all the regions except for Alsace, where the most common one was
R1b1b2h."

Seven regions in France, 27 SNP markers as well as STR data but no tables, no figures, no supplemental data and the only things specific is the above.

One might assume that most of the rest of R1b is S116* and L21 and if such data were to be made available, your assertions would likely be supported.

This is what they have in the can - "We have collected a
total of 555 samples of male unrelated individuals from 7 different
regions of French geography, specifically: Nord-Pas-de-Calais
(Lille), Bretagne (Rennes), Alsace (Strasbourg), Iˆle-de-France
(Paris), Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand), Provence-Alpes-Coˆte d’Azur
(Marseille) and Midi-Pyre´ne´ es (Toulouse)."

"Tear down that wall Dr. Ramos-Luis ...................." (and test the data for M259/L21).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 03:56:23 PM by Norwich » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2010, 05:43:55 PM »

Apparently Myres et al made little effort at obtaining a truly representative sample in France. Just look at Table S4 and the results for L21 versus U152. Small differences in terms of absolute numbers look more impressive when they are chalked up as the percentages of small sample sizes.

L21 (xM222):

France East  N=25  8% (2 individuals out of 25)

France [?]     N=16  0% (0 individuals out of 16)

France West  N=14  14.3% (2 individuals out of 14)

France South N=38   7.9% (3 individuals out of 38)


U152 (subclade unspecified):

France East  16% (4 individuals out of 25)

France [?]      18.8% (3 individuals out of 16)

France West  21.4% (3 individuals out of 14)

France South 10.5% (4 individuals out of 38)


Notice a number of things. First, Northern France was not represented at all, which is clear from the maps that show the locations from which the samples were taken. Second, nearly 68% (63 of 93) of the French samples were drawn from the South and East, precisely where U152 is believed to be most frequent. Third, the sample sizes are small.

Thus, in a relatively small sample heavily skewed to the South and East of France, L21 (xM222) came out with 7.5% of the total, and U152 came out with 15% of the total.

Had Northern France been sampled, and if Western France had been sampled more extensively, what might the results have been?

Note that in Western France the difference between L21 and U152 was a single individual: there were two L21s out of 14 and three U152s out of the same 14.

The biggest differences between L21 and U152 in Myres et al came in France East (believed to be U152's stronghold anyway), where L21 got 2 individuals and U152 got 4 (out of 25), and in (just plain) "France" (whatever that means), where L21 got zero and U152 got 3 (out of 16).

Again, notice that the sample sizes were small, and the differences in absolute results are likewise small (2 versus 4, for example).




that is incredible when you lay it down like that.  Sample both skewed and rather too small. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2010, 06:08:28 PM »

Apparently Myres et al made little effort at obtaining a truly representative sample in France. Just look at Table S4 and the results for L21 versus U152. Small differences in terms of absolute numbers look more impressive when they are chalked up as the percentages of small sample sizes.

L21 (xM222):

France East  N=25  8% (2 individuals out of 25)

France [?]     N=16  0% (0 individuals out of 16)

France West  N=14  14.3% (2 individuals out of 14)

France South N=38   7.9% (3 individuals out of 38)


U152 (subclade unspecified):

France East  16% (4 individuals out of 25)

France [?]      18.8% (3 individuals out of 16)

France West  21.4% (3 individuals out of 14)

France South 10.5% (4 individuals out of 38)


Notice a number of things. First, Northern France was not represented at all, which is clear from the maps that show the locations from which the samples were taken. Second, nearly 68% (63 of 93) of the French samples were drawn from the South and East, precisely where U152 is believed to be most frequent. Third, the sample sizes are small.

Thus, in a relatively small sample heavily skewed to the South and East of France, L21 (xM222) came out with 7.5% of the total, and U152 came out with 15% of the total.

Had Northern France been sampled, and if Western France had been sampled more extensively, what might the results have been?

Note that in Western France the difference between L21 and U152 was a single individual: there were two L21s out of 14 and three U152s out of the same 14.

The biggest differences between L21 and U152 in Myres et al came in France East (believed to be U152's stronghold anyway), where L21 got 2 individuals and U152 got 4 (out of 25), and in (just plain) "France" (whatever that means), where L21 got zero and U152 got 3 (out of 16).

Again, notice that the sample sizes were small, and the differences in absolute results are likewise small (2 versus 4, for example).



What is needed is for Ramos-Luis and crew to publish the actual detailed results of their landmark R1b study of France in 2009.  The ONLY statement of worth is the following:  

"R1b1b2*(xR1b1b2d,e,g,h) was the most frequent haplogroup in
all the regions except for Alsace, where the most common one was
R1b1b2h."

Seven regions in France, 27 SNP markers as well as STR data but no tables, no figures, no supplemental data and the only things specific is the above.

One might assume that most of the rest of R1b is S116* and L21 and if such data were to be made available, your assertions would likely be supported.

This is what they have in the can - "We have collected a
total of 555 samples of male unrelated individuals from 7 different
regions of French geography, specifically: Nord-Pas-de-Calais
(Lille), Bretagne (Rennes), Alsace (Strasbourg), Iˆle-de-France
(Paris), Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand), Provence-Alpes-Coˆte d’Azur
(Marseille) and Midi-Pyre´ne´ es (Toulouse)."

"Tear down that wall Dr. Ramos-Luis ...................." (and test the data for M259/L21).

I have already tried to reason through that statement and compare it to Myres.  Its difficult to be sure but the Ramos-Luis study did include it so its not part of their R1b1b2* group (which must therefore be mainly S116* and L21*) but Myres includes it in his S116* group. If you compare the eastern France results in Myres with the statement of Ramos-Luis that U152 has a majority (including over the S116*/L21* R1b1b2* group) in that area (but not elsewhere) then it is either incorrect or there is a lot of STY 2627 in eastern France.  Either there is rather more L21 or there is an awful lot of SRY 2627 kicking around in the remainder of France.  Its probably a bit of both depending on area.  I suspect if the areas of highest L21 strength (the NW quadrant) and the north and centre (area of highest L21 variance) were included then L21 would have given U152 a run for their money in France, pretty neck in neck and I would say probably  with some kind of NW-SE gradient involved.  I suspect from the project's work that L21 as a percentage of all males rises to a level of dominance by one clade not known in other areas.  The Ramos study actually hints at a founder effect meaning extreme dominance of one haplotype in its Breton sample.  If this statement is at clade level rather than just haplogroup then that has to be L21 that is being discussed.  However, the project data seems to show that the L21 dominance extends over a much larger area of NW France but unfortunately the Ramos study doesnt sample from elsewhere in the NW quarter of France and its next stop in the north is Paris.  I suspect overall L21 would do some dramatic catching up in France if the sampling had cover the right areas. 
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Norwich
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« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2010, 07:57:21 PM »

In going over the Myres data (for the 45th time) but this time focusing on L21 alone, it occurs that there is a strange lack of this haplogroup in a place where L21 numbers should have been robust.

The L21 maps constructed by the genetic genealogy community show a very large number of individuals in the old La Tene areas of France (Marne; Mosel).  It is historically and archaeologically attested that large numbers of tribes from the north and central areas of Gaul uprooted themselves and headed for Italy.  There were two primary migrations, one circa 600 BC and the other about 425 BC.  The Biituriges Cubi, the Senones, the Lingones, the Cenomani, the Insubres.  Assuming If what we see today in terms of haplogroup distribution to some extent refected what was true in the Iron Age, then why are there almost zero L21 anywhere in what is today Italy?  Who then migrated enmasse to the Lake Country, Milan, Verona, Bologna, Senia Gallia - northern and central Italy. 

Could it be that at one time U152 was more numerous in the old La Tene areas and when they abandoned their lands, the L21 arrived from the north to take over these territories.  What is also interesting is that circa 279 the Belgae returned to their former holdings from Illyria and indulged in a campaign of apparent wanton destruction of the locals (setting up ritual killing sites in two known locations - the reconstructions are hideous and frightening).  Undoubtedly the locals for many miles around thought long and hard about leaving or staying - or just headed west or east to escape the apparent carnage.

The Brabant Project shows that U152 makes up 10 to 20% of the Belgian Y chromosomes yet just to the north, there is zero to 3% in the Netherlands.

The botom line is that there are important questions wheich beg answers.  Were there no L21 among for example the Senones?  That seems hard to believe but there is less than one percent of L21 in Italy, and that confined to the north.  I don't think that biased sampling by Myres is going to expalin this unexpected  (at least to me) finding.  What other haplogroups may have participated in the Celtic migration from Gaul?
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argiedude
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« Reply #79 on: September 06, 2010, 09:21:23 PM »

Didier Vernade said at rootsweb, about the Luis-Ramos study of France:

"I think I can say that I wrote to P. Sanchez and she kindly answered. The only thing I can say on this list is that they decided to analyse for more SNPs and it's taking time."

This is very good news, and it also might explain why they've been stonewalling subsequent emails from us, though I don't really get why they would need to be secretive about it.
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mtdna: U5
rms2
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« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2010, 09:29:55 PM »

Didier Vernade said at rootsweb, about the Luis-Ramos study of France:

"I think I can say that I wrote to P. Sanchez and she kindly answered. The only thing I can say on this list is that they decided to analyse for more SNPs and it's taking time."

This is very good news, and it also might explain why they've been stonewalling subsequent emails from us, though I don't really get why they would need to be secretive about it.

That is really good news. Maybe they listened to all of us, but she answered Didier perhaps because he is actually French.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2010, 02:19:59 PM »

In going over the Myres data (for the 45th time) but this time focusing on L21 alone, it occurs that there is a strange lack of this haplogroup in a place where L21 numbers should have been robust.

The L21 maps constructed by the genetic genealogy community show a very large number of individuals in the old La Tene areas of France (Marne; Mosel).  It is historically and archaeologically attested that large numbers of tribes from the north and central areas of Gaul uprooted themselves and headed for Italy.  There were two primary migrations, one circa 600 BC and the other about 425 BC.  The Biituriges Cubi, the Senones, the Lingones, the Cenomani, the Insubres.  Assuming If what we see today in terms of haplogroup distribution to some extent refected what was true in the Iron Age, then why are there almost zero L21 anywhere in what is today Italy?  Who then migrated enmasse to the Lake Country, Milan, Verona, Bologna, Senia Gallia - northern and central Italy.  

Could it be that at one time U152 was more numerous in the old La Tene areas and when they abandoned their lands, the L21 arrived from the north to take over these territories.  What is also interesting is that circa 279 the Belgae returned to their former holdings from Illyria and indulged in a campaign of apparent wanton destruction of the locals (setting up ritual killing sites in two known locations - the reconstructions are hideous and frightening).  Undoubtedly the locals for many miles around thought long and hard about leaving or staying - or just headed west or east to escape the apparent carnage.

The Brabant Project shows that U152 makes up 10 to 20% of the Belgian Y chromosomes yet just to the north, there is zero to 3% in the Netherlands.

The botom line is that there are important questions wheich beg answers.  Were there no L21 among for example the Senones?  That seems hard to believe but there is less than one percent of L21 in Italy, and that confined to the north.  I don't think that biased sampling by Myres is going to expalin this unexpected  (at least to me) finding.  What other haplogroups may have participated in the Celtic migration from Gaul?

Many of the tribes were not from the area west of the Paris-Bordeaux line in France where the concentration of French L21 seems to be or in the Mossele-Rhineland area where there seems to be a reasonable amount.  I thin there is a general feeling that the mass of Gauls probably were more from the east and south of Gaul.   The problem is its not at all clear where the Gaulish tribes who settled Italy were  in the 7th century BC (pre-La Tene) or possibly earlier when archaeologists think the main Iron Age thrust from the north into Italy was.   The positions in Gaul of tribes with similar names recorded by in the 1st century BC are basically totally unreliable as a guide to the tribes original positions in Gaul just before they set off to italy. All we know is their later positions  several centuries later after their great upheavals.   So many tribes had widely scattered fragments in Gaul that it is sometimes hard to be sure where there home was at the time of the invasion of Italy. I suspect the vast majority at the time were located relatively close to the Alps and that the later positions in Gaul might also be a result of their upheavals rather than their original homelands.    

There is the bigger question that most S116 in Italy may have nothing to do with the Iron Age movements and perhaps related to much earlier movements specifically from the north Alpine area and possibly at a time when L21 may have barely come into existence or was mainly located to the north.  A number of people think the spread and scale of U152 in Italy must predate the recorded Iron Age Gaulish movements.  Perhaps the Gaus were like the great Germanic hordes of the folk wandering period who arrived in areas of the Roman empire with a  but left no great genetic mark.  
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 02:43:26 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Norwich
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« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2010, 03:17:02 PM »

In going over the Myres data (for the 45th time) but this time focusing on L21 alone, it occurs that there is a strange lack of this haplogroup in a place where L21 numbers should have been robust.

The L21 maps constructed by the genetic genealogy community show a very large number of individuals in the old La Tene areas of France (Marne; Mosel).  It is historically and archaeologically attested that large numbers of tribes from the north and central areas of Gaul uprooted themselves and headed for Italy.  There were two primary migrations, one circa 600 BC and the other about 425 BC.  The Biituriges Cubi, the Senones, the Lingones, the Cenomani, the Insubres.  Assuming If what we see today in terms of haplogroup distribution to some extent refected what was true in the Iron Age, then why are there almost zero L21 anywhere in what is today Italy?  Who then migrated enmasse to the Lake Country, Milan, Verona, Bologna, Senia Gallia - northern and central Italy.  

Could it be that at one time U152 was more numerous in the old La Tene areas and when they abandoned their lands, the L21 arrived from the north to take over these territories.  What is also interesting is that circa 279 the Belgae returned to their former holdings from Illyria and indulged in a campaign of apparent wanton destruction of the locals (setting up ritual killing sites in two known locations - the reconstructions are hideous and frightening).  Undoubtedly the locals for many miles around thought long and hard about leaving or staying - or just headed west or east to escape the apparent carnage.

The Brabant Project shows that U152 makes up 10 to 20% of the Belgian Y chromosomes yet just to the north, there is zero to 3% in the Netherlands.

The botom line is that there are important questions wheich beg answers.  Were there no L21 among for example the Senones?  That seems hard to believe but there is less than one percent of L21 in Italy, and that confined to the north.  I don't think that biased sampling by Myres is going to expalin this unexpected  (at least to me) finding.  What other haplogroups may have participated in the Celtic migration from Gaul?

Many of the tribes were not from the area west of the Paris-Bordeaux line in France where the concentration of French L21 seems to be or in the Mossele-Rhineland area where there seems to be a reasonable amount.  I thin there is a general feeling that the mass of Gauls probably were more from the east and south of Gaul.   The problem is its not at all clear where the Gaulish tribes who settled Italy were  in the 7th century BC (pre-La Tene) or possibly earlier when archaeologists think the main Iron Age thrust from the north into Italy was.   The positions in Gaul of tribes with similar names recorded by in the 1st century BC are basically totally unreliable as a guide to the tribes original positions in Gaul just before they set off to italy. All we know is their later positions  several centuries later after their great upheavals.   So many tribes had widely scattered fragments in Gaul that it is sometimes hard to be sure where there home was at the time of the invasion of Italy. I suspect the vast majority at the time were located relatively close to the Alps and that the later positions in Gaul might also be a result of their upheavals rather than their original homelands.    

There is the bigger question that most S116 in Italy may have nothing to do with the Iron Age movements and perhaps related to much earlier movements specifically from the north Alpine area and possibly at a time when L21 may have barely come into existence or was mainly located to the north.  A number of people think the spread and scale of U152 in Italy must predate the recorded Iron Age Gaulish movements.  Perhaps the Gaus were like the great Germanic hordes of the folk wandering period who arrived in areas of the Roman empire with a  but left no great genetic mark.  
Yes, I suppose that this is a sensible explanation.  However then turning to the name of this thread, what we have learned is that L21 is either unlikely to have participated in the Hallstatt or La Tene Celtic expansions into Italy, or if they did, they have left zero genetic trace of their presence.  It becomes more difficult re U152 since what we are likely seeing is a combination of oldcomers and newcomers to the areas that have been linked with the Celts in Italy.  Perhaps just a lot of shuffling around of this haplogroup - but surely there are clues in U152*, L2* and L20 which are all found in France, Switzerland, and Italy in "healthy" numbers.  Would love to know when the Corsican U152 arrived on scene.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #83 on: September 07, 2010, 04:10:03 PM »

I think the answer of S116 in Italy largely lies in the  apparent initial expansions of the clades below S116* in certain areas.  It looks to me that U152 expanded much nearer the Alps (eastern France, Switserland etc) while L21 likely expanded well to the north of that in the northern third of France.  I have posted a few times that L21 essentially occupies the Loire, Seine drainage areas in France and the middle Rhine in SW Germany.  The Mosselle is the link between the north-centre and north-west of France and Germany.  That Mosselle route reaches north-central France and the NW beyond by bypassing the old Belgic Gaul area between the Seine and the Lower Rhine.   Certainly the project map very much backs this.  This is the core L21 area IMO and there is a lot of geographical sense to it when the river systems are considered. 

I think of course a little L21 could have gone elsewhere such as following the Rhine to the sea, from the Rhine into the Maine and from there up the Upper Danube. Others could have followed the cpast or seaways down the coast of the centre-west (Vendee) towards the Basque country. 

However, there is watershed in the Massif Central area and a large chunk of the east and south-east of France formed a network that was separate and perhaps L21 only trickled into these south and east flowing systems.  Interestingly the Myres study would suggest that L21 in the Rhone gets higher as you head towards its headwaters and away from the sea suggesting it did enter the Rhone from the north near its source/the watershed rather than by sea. None of the other areas of France are sampled to that level so similar observations cannot be made elsewhere.
   
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« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2010, 04:25:53 PM »

Here are a few more thoughts.  If you look at Italy you would assume (probably correctly) that the area immediately to the north of the Alps was also predominantly U152 at the time of the settlement (assuming it was north to south).  

I think the settlement of the isles (or at least the Celtic fringe) is an exact parallel.  f you look at the R1b1b2 in the Atlantic areas of the Isles, the predominance of L21 seems to point to the donor population being predominantly L21.  This can only really be the case if L21 predominated on the facing continental shores at the critical point in time.  So, the superconcentration of L21 in the north of France would seem to be ancient.  

In fact the overall implication is that at a remote period the clades really did locally superconcentrate in certain areas from their S116* parent and perhaps only later mixed up. This actually fits the Myres model of a late LBK spread into France in the form of S116* followed by a middle Neolithic explosions of local clades like U152 and L21 in widely separated parts of France.  There is a lot that suggests that the U152 settlement of italy and the L21 settlement of the isles was early before the clades had mixed up in the donor areas.
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« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2010, 06:10:28 PM »

Here are a few more thoughts.  If you look at Italy you would assume (probably correctly) that the area immediately to the north of the Alps was also predominantly U152 at the time of the settlement (assuming it was north to south).  

I think the settlement of the isles (or at least the Celtic fringe) is an exact parallel.  f you look at the R1b1b2 in the Atlantic areas of the Isles, the predominance of L21 seems to point to the donor population being predominantly L21.  This can only really be the case if L21 predominated on the facing continental shores at the critical point in time.  So, the superconcentration of L21 in the north of France would seem to be ancient.  

In fact the overall implication is that at a remote period the clades really did locally superconcentrate in certain areas from their S116* parent and perhaps only later mixed up. This actually fits the Myres model of a late LBK spread into France in the form of S116* followed by a middle Neolithic explosions of local clades like U152 and L21 in widely separated parts of France.  There is a lot that suggests that the U152 settlement of italy and the L21 settlement of the isles was early before the clades had mixed up in the donor areas.
What do you think happened far as R-P312 going north into Scandinavia and southwest into Iberia?

We know there is R-P312* in Scandinava and Ethnoancestry seems to be calling R-L176+L165+ a "Norse" clade and Nordtvedt thinks R-P312/L238+ a Scandinavian clade as well.   About 35% of Norway seems to be R1b1b2 and that apparently is heavily R-P312 including L21+.

On the other hand, R-L176/SRY2627+ seems to be heavy in Catalonian Spain and while R-P312* seems spread around a bit with a little L21+ present.

Do you think these extensions into areas like Iberia and Scandinavia were part of these middle/late Neolithic expansions of the old LBK, or do you think these became Bronze Age movements?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 06:12:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2010, 06:42:22 PM »

Mike
Is there any L176* and where is it?  A common root for Catalonia and Scandinavia must surely be in some geographically intermediate point.  Is there any evidence of dating for these clades?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 06:48:33 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2010, 10:31:49 PM »

Is there any L176* and where is it?  A common root for Catalonia and Scandinavia must surely be in some geographically intermediate point.  Is there any evidence of dating for these clades?
Here are the only three L176.2* guys I am aware of:
f41647   Miller - England, North East, Co. Durham, Sunderland
f171839   Noble - Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f86995   Pleis - Germany, Lower Saxony, Hanover

Here are the L176+ L165+ (aka S68) guys (Ethnoancestry: "Norse Viking")
f163136   Ayton - England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Yorkshire, Scarborough, West Ayton
f40551   Greenwade - Unknown
f47096   MacLeod   - Scotland, Outer Hebrides, Isle of Harris
f46281   McDonald Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Latheron
f54067   McGirt - Unknown
f137480   McLeod - Scotland, Strathclyde, Ayrshire
 (plus 3 other McLeod's)
f99990   Olofsson - Sweden, Västra Götaland län, Orust Island

L176+ SRY2627+ (aka M167) does have large Iberian contingent but shows in our DNA projects is actually more populous in England, France and Ireland..  The German contingent is as large as the Spanish.  It also shows up in Belgium, Denmark, Hungary, Ukraine, Czech Rep., Italy and Sweden.

SRY2627+ is reportedly very heavy in Catalonia, which it turns, out is the old Spanish March, a buffer area set up by the Frankish kings.
Quote from: Wikipedia
The area broadly corresponds to the region between the Pyrenees and the Ebro River. The local population of the March was diverse, including Iberians, Basques, Jews and Goths who had been conquered or subjugated by the Muslim emirate to the south or the Frankish Empire to the north.

Gosh, almost sound like the VisiGoths and later, related Vikings.

As far aging or rather variance as a proxy, SRY2627 is almost as old as L176.  L176 is about 8-10% younger than L21 and about 15% younger than U152.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 10:38:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: September 10, 2010, 05:28:39 AM »

Adams et Alii (2008) reported 21% of M167 over the whole population (80 samples)in Catalonia, 15% in neighbouring Aragón, 17% in Gascony and 9% in the Basque Country.
The March was not the region "between the Pyrenees and the Ebro River" but rather both sides of Eastern Pyrenees.
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« Reply #89 on: September 10, 2010, 09:20:45 AM »

Adams et Alii (2008) reported 21% of M167 over the whole population (80 samples)in Catalonia, 15% in neighbouring Aragón, 17% in Gascony and 9% in the Basque Country.
The March was not the region "between the Pyrenees and the Ebro River" but rather both sides of Eastern Pyrenees.
Thanks, Ialem.  Did Adams et al survey other parts of Europe for M167/SRY2627? Specifically, Germany, Belgium and the rest of France? We do have three SRY2627 guys from Belgium.

I'm not saying it is the Visigoths, but during Moorish rule may very well have retreated to mountainous areas and we know they were in the Spanish March.
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« Reply #90 on: September 10, 2010, 10:20:12 AM »


No, Only Iberia and Gascony.
Argiedude plotted the results in a map that showed a marked cline in frequency, decreasing from NE to SW.

Santos et Alii (2005) found only 6 M167 in a sample of 692 Iberians, however no regional location was given.

Regarding Visigoths, there is a population reputed to be direct descendants of Visigoth refugees in Northern Spain and Southern France, the Agotes/Cagots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot
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« Reply #91 on: September 10, 2010, 10:49:30 AM »

Quote from: Mikewww'
Thanks, Ialem.  Did Adams et al survey other parts of Europe for M167/SRY2627? Specifically, Germany, Belgium and the rest of France?
No, Only Iberia and Gascony. Argiedude plotted the results in a map that showed a marked cline in frequency, decreasing from NE to SW. ....
Sounds like a typical case of a subclade being labeled, Iberian in this case, based on frequency or first area of discovery.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 10:49:47 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2010, 11:05:05 AM »

If we took only the results of the project L21 ...
Taking into consideration the number of total people originating from countries that I found on my FTDNA page (for example: England: 21 371, Germany: 10 864, France 2982 ect ..).
And If I consider that in Ireland there are 50% of L21 (Myres), then I get a map slightly different than the project:
Ireland: 50%
France: 47%
(But this high percentage is due to one of the projects to test some french free)
Pays de Galles: 38%
Norvège: 37%
Ecosse: 29%

Espagne: 20%
Portugal: 19%
Angleterre: 18,5%

Danemark: 13,5%
Pays-Bas: 13,5%
Suède: 11,5%
Allemagne: 10%

Suisse: 6,5%
Italie: 5,5%

Russie: 1%
Pologne: 1%



http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/l21.gif
This map is extremely schematic, but I think it is likely that L21 is more prevalent in Northwestern Europe (this is not a surprise, but including Norway).
L21 seems also present in Spain and Portugal, but I do not believe there is a hot spot in Germany, although I think the results of Myres et al underestimated the percentage of L21.
Italy and Switzerland have the lowest rates in Western Europe and L21 would be around 1% in the countries of eastern

I do not speak English very well, so I can not speak strictly.
All this is purely statistical. Do you believe in statistics?
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« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2010, 11:58:58 AM »

If we took only the results of the project L21 ...
All this is purely statistical. Do you believe in statistics?
Great work, Jerome.  Thank you.  I have additional L21 data.  Besides our L21Plus FTDNA project, I looked in the R1b and major geographic projects for more L21 people.  I also looked up the Ysearch ID's for each kit # and added the MDKA origin info where it wasn't in the FTDNA project and then classified everyone down to provincial/regional level.

The file is an Excel file that must be unzipped - R-L21ALL_Haplotypes.zip
It is at this web site:   http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/

As far as statistics go, I agree they are very, very useful, but they are only part of data that can be gathered to understand a people.
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« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2010, 01:25:01 PM »

. . .
France: 47%
(But this high percentage is due to one of the projects to test some french free)
. . .

The testing of the French for free was random. It was not a case of hunting for and cherry-picking only those who looked likely to be L21+ (an almost impossible task anyway). We just recruited those who were willing to give permission to be tested and who weren't already obviously L21-.

If L21 were not pretty common in France, our free and random testing would not have scored all that well. For example, if we had recruited 20 or 30 Russians and paid to test them for L21, we probably would have come up with nothing to show for it. So, it isn't the mere act of paying for testing that produces results. The L21 has to actually be there first in order for positive results to show up.

The real statistical difficulty with the project is the over abundance of persons of British Isles descent, which is due to the history of North American settlement and immigration.
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« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2010, 02:00:31 PM »


http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/l21.gif

Italy and Switzerland have the lowest rates in Western Europe and L21 would be around 1% in the countries of eastern

Je pense que votre carte est simplement foule, mais, aussi comme ça, démontre que l’Italie est a l’origine aussi de R-L21 (étant une vague de avancement), où est beaucoup rare mais possède l'haplotype avec la plus haute variance, quel d’Argiedude.  
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 04:43:42 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2010, 05:44:53 PM »

Italy and Switzerland have the lowest rates in Western Europe and L21 would be around 1% in the countries of eastern
Je pense que votre carte est simplement foule, mais, aussi comme ça, démontre que l’Italie est a l’origine aussi de R-L21 (étant une vague de avancement), où est beaucoup rare mais possède le haplotype avec la plus haut variance, quel d’Argiedude.  
Maliclavelli,
Please clarify if I'm not understanding correctly.  Why are you saying or where are you saying R-L21 has the highest variance?  Why do you say Italy is the primary cause of R-L21's advance?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 05:45:46 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2010, 09:26:37 PM »

I have written much on R-L21 in Italy. You can see other threads. The most part of Italian R-L21 I have demonstrated not to be Italians (Bonnet and Leimone are of French origin, Basile I suspect is a NPE happpened in USA: he is very close to Irishmen). The only Italian R-L21 is Argiedude, but we don't know his surname (I was said typical Lombard). But also Argiedude finds some close to him in three Callaways. I asked him to test some relatives in Italy to be sure he is from there and not from elsewhere. My hope is he is really of Italian descent and his haplotype the remnant of those rare L21 who from the Ialian Refugium peopled Europe, like all subclades from R1b1* to R-L51, R-L11 and now also R-U152, that finds its center in Italy. Argiedude has the very rare DYS19=10 and other values that make his haplotype one with the highest variance I know.

The percentages of L21 in Italy given by Jerome are foolish, for what I said before.
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« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2010, 09:29:02 PM »

I have written much on R-L21 in Italy. You can see other threads. The most part of Italian R-L21 I have demonstrated not to be Italians (Bonnet and Leimone are of French origin, Basile I suspect is a NPE happpened in USA: he is very close to Irishmen). The only Italian R-L21 is Argiedude, but we don't know his surname (I was said typical Lombard). But also Argiedude finds some close to him in three Callaways. I asked him to test some relatives in Italy to be sure he is from there and not from elsewhere. My hope is he is really of Italian descent and his haplotype the remnant of those rare L21 who from the Ialian Refugium peopled Europe, like all subclades from R1b1* to R-L51, R-L11 and now also R-U152, that finds its center in Italy. Argiedude has the very rare DYS19=10 and other values that make his haplotype one with the highest variance I know.

The percentages of L21 in Italy given by Jerome are foolish, for what I said before,

I know argiedude's surname, but I cannot reveal it. It is very Italian. I can say that much.

He has no close matches that I know of. How close are these Callaways?
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« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2010, 09:49:41 PM »

Callaways are very close: their relatedness is within a few centuries. I spoke about this in other threads here.
Of course if Argiedude wasn't Italian by his Y (Argentine, desaparecidos, etc.) I would be very sorry.
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