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Author Topic: R-M269 article on Holocene era founder effect on Central and West Europe  (Read 33872 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2010, 08:18:10 AM »

Nobody speak about asiatic distribution of R1b haplogroup given by maps of Myres paper, figure 1.
There is a hotspot of R1b north-east of Caspian sea (map c). This hotspot is linked with R1b hotspot on north Pakistan. The hotspot north-east of Caspian sea, matches the Andronovo culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
The link between north-east of Caspian sea and north Pakistan show clearly the migration of indo-europeans during bronze age.
There is also a hotspot of R1b-M269 north of Black sea, on map d of figure 1.
The maps of Myres paper provide strong evidence for a link between R1b and Indo-european migrations from the Steppes during copper age.

That's the thing, the author's went straight to an LBK scenario and dismissed these areas.  M269* by itself could very well be representative of some of the Balkan and Impressed Ware Neolithic cultures of the 8th to 6th millenium coming from SW Asia, but this study shows L23* oldest in the areas you mentioned, especially the north Caucasus.  So, it doesn't look like L23 was born from those early neolithics in the Balkans or Mediterranean based on variance or frequency.  L23 looks like the Maikop/Yamnaya horizon and L51 could be the  proto-Italo-Celtic speakers once they settled into a more sedentary lifestyle.

Actually LBK on its own could never explain either R1b1b2 in western Europe.  There were always huge areas of very high R1b1b2 (mainly S116 forms) that LBK never reached, including all of Iberia, south and central France, the Alps and Pyrenees and Italy.  Those are high R1b1b2 areas and a model that didnt explain them was pretty worthless.  Problem is R1b1b2 is common in former LBK area, Cardial areas and in areas where hunters seemed to hang on or slowly adopt faming traits in the early Neolithic.  In fact what this model has rather cleverly done is introduced the concept of an expansion of lineages that had been brought in with the LBK but during a period when the LBK culture has broken up into more localised LBK-derived successor cultures.  They cite Chasseen culture as an expansion out of former LBK areas of France into the remainder of France, Iberia and Italy as an explanation of how LBK lineages (i.e. R1b1b2) could have spread so much into non-LBK areas.  I have wanted to find out a lot more about these middle Neolithic LBK successor cultures but its difficult so I do not feel qualified to comment much on them.  I am aware of them and did briefly study them but not in any detail.    

There is a Wikipedia article on Chasséen_culture
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2010, 09:51:16 AM »

Notice ..... the very interesting Map H.
Yes, I see that R-L11(xU106xP312) shows up heavy in three spots...
1. Baltic coast of the Southern tip of Sweden, Northeast Germany and Northern Poland (but not really the Baltic States nor the Eastern Coast of Sweden.)
2. England, specifically the center, but pretty much all of England and Wales, but not Scotland and Ireland.
3. To a lesser degree, but still apparent, Switzerland and small parts of Nothern Italy and Southern Germany.

What do you think?  I don't see how Switzerland fits in, but is this a shadow of the Corded Ware culture?

Don't forget U106 is older than P312 so it might make sense that U106 is found a little more often with R-L11* than P312 would be.

Haven't we discussed earlier on this forum how the west met  the east in the Bell Beaker world to form some amalgamation?  Is this were P312 might have originated or least initiated its great expansion?  Or it was just P312's expansion to the northwest through France to the Isles that would have been born out of this east-west amalgamation?
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2010, 11:05:58 AM »

We can say much on this. By R-L11 derived both R-U106 and R-P312. Of course they derived from two different persons. Then one had the mutation U106 and another the mutation P312. All the other L11-s, if had a descent, are a paragroup. Thus it is like to look for a needle in a haystack: the ancestors of U106 and of P312 could be everywhere in Europe. We could say something examining the modal of the extant L11 and of U106 and P312. Then to presuppose that where today there are more L11 there was born U106 or P132 is a fallacy.
By my point of view, thinking that all derives from the Italian refugium and certainly there was R-L51, it is very important the presence of L11 in the Alpine zone: the others, even more numerous today, are only the periphery of the expansion, not accidentally the British Isles and Baltic.
Perhaps we can presuppose that among those L11 in North Germany was the one which generated U106, but also on this we must be prudent: I am not convinced that the ancestor of U106 wasn’t already born before they reached these places, perhaps near the Alps or South Germany.
For instance all the Italian U106 I know (except Maddi, who can have  a recent Northern origin) are U106*, the most ancient, and can have come to Italy in every moment, also be Italian from the origin (ab originibus how would say Romans).
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2010, 11:17:25 AM »

Actually LBK on its own could never explain either R1b1b2 in western Europe.  There were always huge areas of very high R1b1b2 (mainly S116 forms) that LBK never reached, including all of Iberia, south and central France, the Alps and Pyrenees and Italy.  Those are high R1b1b2 areas and a model that didnt explain them was pretty worthless.  Problem is R1b1b2 is common in former LBK area, Cardial areas and in areas where hunters seemed to hang on or slowly adopt faming traits in the early Neolithic.  In fact what this model has rather cleverly done is introduced the concept of an expansion of lineages that had been brought in with the LBK but during a period when the LBK culture has broken up into more localised LBK-derived successor cultures.  They cite Chasseen culture as an expansion out of former LBK areas of France into the remainder of France, Iberia and Italy as an explanation of how LBK lineages (i.e. R1b1b2) could have spread so much into non-LBK areas.  I have wanted to find out a lot more about these middle Neolithic LBK successor cultures but its difficult so I do not feel qualified to comment much on them.  I am aware of them and did briefly study them but not in any detail.    

There is a Wikipedia article on Chasséen_culture
I can see the link between western R1b1b2 and LBK/Chasseen and I agree it mirrors the neolithic there.  What I see with the upstream snps's doesn't line up with a Balkan Neolithic though. 

Starting with L23*, it has a trail of higher variance north of the Black sea starting with the  north Caucasus, Romania, then to Italy.  Basically there is trace of an east-west trail partially along the Danube with an uncanny similiarity to Jean's Yamnaya/Stelae people route.  If it was an snp further downstream, I probably wouldn't think this.  Hungary (also along the trail) is the next highest after those 3 and the upper Rhone in Switzerland has a .27 L23 frequency and a slightly higher variance than Greece.  Everything around this trail is lower in L23* variance including Greece, Poland, and Slovakia.  Greece has elevated frequency , but maybe as a result of IE settlements in the Balkans from this migration.

Turkey is high but also less than the Caucasus in terms of frequency, variance,and raw numbers of L23.  If the south Caucasus, Turkey, and Greece were more prominent I would favor the LBK.  I do think Armenia was greatly underrepresented in this study which could impact the Copper age theory. 

After, L23 arrives, it's easy to see European L51+ clades branching off somewhere in Central europe with some back migrations  of S116 and U152 later on to the east with Celts,Goths, etc.  This is somewhat simplistic, but I do think this makes the most sense based on the available data.
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2010, 12:26:39 PM »

Actually LBK on its own could never explain either R1b1b2 in western Europe.  There were always huge areas of very high R1b1b2 (mainly S116 forms) that LBK never reached, including all of Iberia, south and central France, the Alps and Pyrenees and Italy.  Those are high R1b1b2 areas and a model that didnt explain them was pretty worthless.  Problem is R1b1b2 is common in former LBK area, Cardial areas and in areas where hunters seemed to hang on or slowly adopt faming traits in the early Neolithic.  In fact what this model has rather cleverly done is introduced the concept of an expansion of lineages that had been brought in with the LBK but during a period when the LBK culture has broken up into more localised LBK-derived successor cultures.  They cite Chasseen culture as an expansion out of former LBK areas of France into the remainder of France, Iberia and Italy as an explanation of how LBK lineages (i.e. R1b1b2) could have spread so much into non-LBK areas.  I have wanted to find out a lot more about these middle Neolithic LBK successor cultures but its difficult so I do not feel qualified to comment much on them.  I am aware of them and did briefly study them but not in any detail.    

There is a Wikipedia article on Chasséen_culture
I can see the link between western R1b1b2 and LBK/Chasseen and I agree it mirrors the neolithic there.  What I see with the upstream snps's doesn't line up with a Balkan Neolithic though.  

Starting with L23*, it has a trail of higher variance north of the Black sea starting with the  north Caucasus, Romania, then to Italy.  Basically there is trace of an east-west trail partially along the Danube with an uncanny similiarity to Jean's Yamnaya/Stelae people route.  If it was an snp further downstream, I probably wouldn't think this.  Hungary (also along the trail) is the next highest after those 3 and the upper Rhone in Switzerland has a .27 L23 frequency and a slightly higher variance than Greece.  Everything around this trail is lower in L23* variance including Greece, Poland, and Slovakia.  Greece has elevated frequency , but maybe as a result of IE settlements in the Balkans from this migration.

Turkey is high but also less than the Caucasus in terms of frequency, variance,and raw numbers of L23.  If the south Caucasus, Turkey, and Greece were more prominent I would favor the LBK.  I do think Armenia was greatly underrepresented in this study which could impact the Copper age theory.  

After, L23 arrives, it's easy to see European L51+ clades branching off somewhere in Central europe with some back migrations  of S116 and U152 later on to the east with Celts,Goths, etc.  This is somewhat simplistic, but I do think this makes the most sense based on the available data.
My own opinion hasn't changed, and follows Jean M's general thinking.    The only Neolithic advances that people, like Cunliffe, think could carry a lot of new people are the the LBK and the Cardial Wares.  Those two just don't match up all the way down to the L21 level.  L21 is huge in the Isles and Northern France, at the very least.  I still haven't heard of a secondary Neolithic movement, like Chasséen, that could carry L21.  It would have to be Chasséen plus another or two, nearly simultaneously.

I don't hear of Vince V (or other high profile blogger/researchers) revising their TMRCA's for R-M269's major subclades.  I trust his estimates more than the Myres et al study.  He may not be "hog-tied" by prior academic work which must be built on or refuted.  The Neolithic advance just seem a little to young for L21's expansion and L21 is a very major piece of P312, at least in NW Europe.  I don't think U152 is more populous than L21 overall unless there is just a ton of U152 in Germany and France, which could be.
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2010, 01:10:42 PM »

Notice ..... the very interesting Map H.
Yes, I see that R-L11(xU106xP312) shows up heavy in three spots...
1. Baltic coast of the Southern tip of Sweden, Northeast Germany and Northern Poland (but not really the Baltic States nor the Eastern Coast of Sweden.)
2. England, specifically the center, but pretty much all of England and Wales, but not Scotland and Ireland.
3. To a lesser degree, but still apparent, Switzerland and small parts of Northern Italy and Southern Germany.

What do you think?  I don't see how Switzerland fits in, but is this a shadow of the Corded Ware culture?

I suspect that this is a relict of the Funnel Beaker Culture. Bear in mind that the people who brought that would be swallowed up by the Corded Ware arrivals, and thrown into the mix from which the Proto-Germanic speakers much later sprang. Then the Germanic people pushed south into Switzerland and west into England (among other places). Evidently L11* never formed a high proportion of the Germanic mix, so you would expect founder effects wherever one or two happened to land up.  Or as you say - a sprinkling of  L11* was a fellow-traveller with U106.  
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2010, 01:16:31 PM »

Actually LBK on its own could never explain either R1b1b2 in western Europe.  There were always huge areas of very high R1b1b2 (mainly S116 forms) that LBK never reached, including all of Iberia, south and central France, the Alps and Pyrenees and Italy.  Those are high R1b1b2 areas and a model that didnt explain them was pretty worthless.  Problem is R1b1b2 is common in former LBK area, Cardial areas and in areas where hunters seemed to hang on or slowly adopt faming traits in the early Neolithic.  In fact what this model has rather cleverly done is introduced the concept of an expansion of lineages that had been brought in with the LBK but during a period when the LBK culture has broken up into more localised LBK-derived successor cultures.  They cite Chasseen culture as an expansion out of former LBK areas of France into the remainder of France, Iberia and Italy as an explanation of how LBK lineages (i.e. R1b1b2) could have spread so much into non-LBK areas.  I have wanted to find out a lot more about these middle Neolithic LBK successor cultures but its difficult so I do not feel qualified to comment much on them.  I am aware of them and did briefly study them but not in any detail.    

There is a Wikipedia article on Chasséen_culture
I can see the link between western R1b1b2 and LBK/Chasseen and I agree it mirrors the neolithic there.  What I see with the upstream snps's doesn't line up with a Balkan Neolithic though.  

Starting with L23*, it has a trail of higher variance north of the Black sea starting with the  north Caucasus, Romania, then to Italy.  Basically there is trace of an east-west trail partially along the Danube with an uncanny similiarity to Jean's Yamnaya/Stelae people route.  If it was an snp further downstream, I probably wouldn't think this.  Hungary (also along the trail) is the next highest after those 3 and the upper Rhone in Switzerland has a .27 L23 frequency and a slightly higher variance than Greece.  Everything around this trail is lower in L23* variance including Greece, Poland, and Slovakia.  Greece has elevated frequency , but maybe as a result of IE settlements in the Balkans from this migration.

Turkey is high but also less than the Caucasus in terms of frequency, variance,and raw numbers of L23.  If the south Caucasus, Turkey, and Greece were more prominent I would favor the LBK.  I do think Armenia was greatly underrepresented in this study which could impact the Copper age theory.  

After, L23 arrives, it's easy to see European L51+ clades branching off somewhere in Central europe with some back migrations  of S116 and U152 later on to the east with Celts,Goths, etc.  This is somewhat simplistic, but I do think this makes the most sense based on the available data.
My own opinion hasn't changed, and follows Jean M's general thinking.    The only Neolithic advances that people, like Cunliffe, think could carry a lot of new people are the the LBK and the Cardial Wares.  Those two just don't match up all the way down to the L21 level.  L21 is huge in the Isles and Northern France, at the very least.  I still haven't heard of a secondary Neolithic movement, like Chasséen, that could carry L21.  It would have to be Chasséen plus another or two, nearly simultaneously.

I don't hear of Vince V (or other high profile blogger/researchers) revising their TMRCA's for R-M269's major subclades.  I trust his estimates more than the Myres et al study.  He may not be "hog-tied" by prior academic work which must be built on or refuted.  The Neolithic advance just seem a little to young for L21's expansion and L21 is a very major piece of P312, at least in NW Europe.  I don't think U152 is more populous than L21 overall unless there is just a ton of U152 in Germany and France, which could be.

Certainly its not simple or intuitive.  You cant look at a y-DNA map and then at archaeological maps of any single period and see any simple correlation.  I am pretty close to concluding its too complex and mixed up by the passing of many 1000s of years to use modern populations as a proxy and only ancient yDNA will sort it out.  Maybe a really huge survey which gives very fine detail would help but I cant see it.  I have been trying to make sense of it from the archaeology in tandem with whatever I am told is the latest thinking on DNA dating and the latest project maps for a few years now.  The DNA experts just do not agree on date and we have moved from Palaeolithic to Copper Age to Neolithic to ???? and who knows what next and I pretty much have to throw in the towel.  DNA and archaeological record simply do not match in any way and without lots of 'special pleading'. When you have that situation its really becomes educated guessing.  I think the paper makes a good case for an east-west movement and picks the biggest one known in the archaeological record to match it.  However, it would be completely misleading to say that a map of R1b1b2 or its clades in any way is a close match for a map of LBK remains.  They are very different.  By introducing the post-LBK mid Neolithic expansion to try and explain this away they have included a very difficult period that I really do not know enough about or have enough time to find out more about. I think I am going to wait for ancient DNA and take less interest in the concept of inferring the past from modern populations.  
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2010, 01:22:06 PM »

Right, I think the snp that looks better associated with SW Asian/Neolithic is  M269*.  After that the branches are showing up north of the Mediterrean, Balkans, and Turkey via the Caucasus.  Sure there will be outliers here and there, but that's the trend I see.
 
Some more wild speculation...
Continuing with the IE theory, L21 looks associated with Cunliffe's Atlantic Bronze Age, also Urnfield culture, and the Nordic Bronze Age.  L21 is present in all of these areas probably at the right time.  P312/S116 seems to fit better for the earliest Bell beaker spread with its overall higher prominence in Iberia, Italy,  Switzerland, south France, Hungary, though a little less so in Scandinavia than L21.  U106 might work with early Beaker as well, but for whatever reasons becomes associated with the Unetice cultural areas (because of elevated U106 in Poland), basically becoming more Germanic than its wandering Celtic cousins.  L21 seems to be the continuation from Beaker as the Bronze age trade networks get going.  U152 looks like the emergence of the centrally located Hallstatt and La Tene cultures from its pattern, especially considering the heavy presence of U152 in north Italy and traces of it in Ukraine, Balkans, and Turkey.  Both L21 and U152 could have been present in Urnfield, imo.  The difference being most of L21 moves north and west earlier.
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2010, 01:37:51 PM »

This is my modified text on U106:

Quote
R1b-U106 has its peak in northern Europe and a distribution which correlates fairly well with Germanic speakers, past and present. A sprinkling of men within that distribution carry the parent clade R1b-L11*. With an estimated date a little older than R1b-P312, U106 may have spread initially from the European steppe around 4000 BC among those who brought the Funnel Beaker Culture to Scandinavia and the Baltic. Or it may have been concentrated in the Usatovo Culture and spread north into Corded Ware. Or it may have arisen within the Funnel Beaker Culture from its father clade R1b-L11*. We can only speculate. Yet it seem safe to expect that it arrived in northern Europe long before Proto-Germanic developed.
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« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2010, 01:59:48 PM »

This is my modified text on U106:

Quote
R1b-U106 has its peak in northern Europe and a distribution which correlates fairly well with Germanic speakers, past and present. A sprinkling of men within that distribution carry the parent clade R1b-L11*. With an estimated date a little older than R1b-P312, U106 may have spread initially from the European steppe around 4000 BC among those who brought the Funnel Beaker Culture to Scandinavia and the Baltic. Or it may have been concentrated in the Usatovo Culture and spread north into Corded Ware. Or it may have arisen within the Funnel Beaker Culture from its father clade R1b-L11*. We can only speculate. Yet it seem safe to expect that it arrived in northern Europe long before Proto-Germanic developed.

I think this would work too depending on mutation rates and is within the confidence intervals for a germline age.  U106 more than other R1b, does seem to favor the Germanic areas for reasons unknown.

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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2010, 03:41:45 PM »

The map depicting the studied populations in the Myres study, on page 3, shows huge sample sizes from Morocco and Egypt, which aren't found anywhere in the study or supplementary files. But curiously, Cruciani's study of R1b1b2 did include huge sample sizes from Morocco and Egypt.
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« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2010, 03:43:10 PM »

Between the Myres and Cruciani studies, North Italy was found to have 45 U152 out of 78 R1b1b2 (equal to 58% of their R1b1b2). From other studies, mainly yhrd, I estimate North Italy's R1b1b2 at exactly 50%. This results in North Italy having 29% U152 out of their total y-dna.

North Italy's neighbors to the north, west, and south have the 2nd highest frequencies of U152 in Europe, but they're all much lower than North Italy's. Switzerland has 18% U152 (n=175), southeast France has 17% U152 (n=367), and central Italy has 18% U152 (n=262). On the other hand, North Italy's eastern neighbor, Slovenia, has 5% U152 (n=205).

From central Italy's 18% it then descends to 10% in south Italy, and it remains at 10% in Sicily. It's hard to calculate any other region in France besides the southeast, so as a proxy I'll use northeast Spain. From southeast France's 18%, the frequency descends to 10% in northeast Spain. And from Switzerland's 18% it then drops to 10% in west and south Germany.

There's no doubt about it, U152 is centered in North Italy. It doesn't share the throne with any neighboring region, it's North Italian-centric. Imagine a 4-sided pyramid with 3 sides sloping down and the eastern side imploded.
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« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2010, 03:49:48 PM »

The Cruciani study has a link to supplementary data, but it's not open access:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.07.006

Anyone care to obtain it?
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« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2010, 03:55:17 PM »

Between the Myres and Cruciani studies, North Italy was found to have 45 U152 out of 78 R1b1b2 (equal to 58% of their R1b1b2). From other studies, mainly yhrd, I estimate North Italy's R1b1b2 at exactly 50%. This results in North Italy having 29% U152 out of their total y-dna.

North Italy's neighbors to the north, west, and south have the 2nd highest frequencies of U152 in Europe, but they're all much lower than North Italy's. Switzerland has 18% U152 (n=175), southeast France has 17% U152 (n=367), and central Italy has 18% U152 (n=262). On the other hand, North Italy's eastern neighbor, Slovenia, has 5% U152 (n=205).

From central Italy's 18% it then descends to 10% in south Italy, and it remains at 10% in Sicily. It's hard to calculate any other region in France besides the southeast, so as a proxy I'll use northeast Spain. From southeast France's 18%, the frequency descends to 10% in northeast Spain. And from Switzerland's 18% it then drops to 10% in west and south Germany.

There's no doubt about it, U152 is centered in North Italy. It doesn't share the throne with any neighboring region, it's North Italian-centric. Imagine a 4-sided pyramid with 3 sides sloping down and the eastern side imploded.


Someone posted that the variance of U152 is higher on the north side of the Alps.  Is tht correct?
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« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2010, 03:59:58 PM »

If the variance is highest for U152 in Germany (which I seem to recall reading in Myres), then the high Italian frequency could be down to Celts of Cisalpine Gaul rather than to Italics.

Still, it's hard to imagine that U152 could be so pervasive in Italy if it is merely Celtic there.
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« Reply #90 on: August 28, 2010, 10:53:30 PM »

Quote from: Alan
Someone posted that the variance of U152 is higher on the north side of the Alps.  Is tht correct?
If the variance is highest for U152 in Germany (which I seem to recall reading in Myres), then the high Italian frequency could be down to Celts of Cisalpine Gaul rather than to Italics.
Still, it's hard to imagine that U152 could be so pervasive in Italy if it is merely Celtic there.
I've got 493 haplotypes from the R-U152 projects, Faux's URL and a few others.  This is a lot smaller sample set than R-L21* so I can't get very granular... for instance Munster and Connacht have only 3 each R-U152.

R-U152 Relative Diversity & Count for 25 marker Hts:

103.7 32 East (of Germany) Continental Europe & Asia
090.5 14 East Mediterranean (inc. S. Italy)

114.5 10 France - North & Central
103.4 46 Alpine Countries (exc. France) & Cisalpine Italy
100.3 09 Iberian Peninsula (exc. Pyrenees)
099.4 25 Germany - Middle
094.1 51 Germany (all)
091.5 04 France - Southeast (very sm sample)
091.3 11 Low Countries
092.8 09 France - North Atlantic
084.6 20 Germany - South
084.0 07 France - Northeast
078.7 06 Aquitaine and Pyrenees

104.4 12 England - East
102.3 56 England (all)
102.3 09 Scandinavia
101.6 19 Scotland
096.0 08 England - Southeast
085.8 20 Ireland


R-U152 is a little hard to figure out.   As a total group, it is older than R-L21. The DNA projects just don't have much from SE France, but I expected to find more R-U152 than we have - only 4.

I am surprised by the high diversity in North & Central France and the lower diversity in Germany which seems to contradict Myres.

Back to the question on Italy, U152 seems clearly older in the North than in the South.  Morever, there are enough samples east of Germany all the way into Asia that I think U152 must have originated east of Western Europe.  I think the same is probably true of U106, but L21 seems to have come out of the Rhine Valley (at least its expansion if not origin.)  P312, must have originated in the east as well, as a parent of U152.

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« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2010, 04:07:53 AM »

It seems to me that these observations done by David Faux on Rootsweb merit to be discussed and verified, and also the presence of R-L11*  around the Baltic. I wouldn’t that the only place where R-L11* is really present is the Alpine region, and it would be more believable, being close to the highest presence of R-L51*.

“My guess in relation to L11*, which Myres et al. report as .12 (12%) in
Central England (zero percent in the rest of England), has been flipped with
U152. I fail to believe that there are no U152 in Central England (which is
not consistent with what is seen in my U152 database). It would make sense
that the true percent is 12%. L11* is exceedingly rare, yet this study
would have us believe that it is more common than L21 (M529), and equal to
P312 / S116* in Central England. Anything is possible, but this finding
simply does not make sense - a clerical error does”.
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« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2010, 04:58:06 AM »

Denmark 2
England 4
Estonia 2
Germany 6
Italy 2   
Poland 1
Slovakia 2
Switzerland 3

These are the samples of R-L11* in S3, then from the literature. This makes the hypothesis of David Faux more believable. The R-L11* found by Myers are 23 and only the 6 from Germany are reported with their modal. We should know how many were found in the British Isles and how many were the individuals tested. Also the fact that Myers has found 23 R-L11* , testing 2193 persons, more than the 22 found by the literature on the argument is too suspect.

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secherbernard
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« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2010, 05:40:28 AM »

I give below two very interesting posts by Maciamo on the Eupedia forum about Myres paper:

Quote
This is a very interesting study because it is the first to give a good overview of all the major subclades of R1b in Europe, Asia and Africa. The only region missing is the Indian subcontinent, except for a very small Pakistani sample.

As we have Myres et al.'s article in front of us, I would like you to have a good look at the distribution maps.

One thing that I had wanted to ascertain for a while is whether my hypothesis of an Indo-European origin of R1b was indeed possible. To summarize, I think that haplogroup R1b* originated somewhere around the Caspian Sea (between northern Mesopotamia and the south-west of Central Asia) during the Ice Age. At the end of the Ice Age, one group moved more permanently around the southern Caucasus and Anatolia, where it evolved into R1b1b (P297), and another to the Levant and Africa, where it became R1b1a (V88).

Approximately 7000 to 6000 years ago, a group of R1b1b from northern Anatolia (probably sheep and cow herders) crossed the Caucasus and blended with the native hunter-gatherer R1a population. The new culture that emerged from this fusion was to become the core of Indo-European people. I still have my doubt about which group originated the Proto-IE language. But it doesn't matter much as the language evolved quickly into numerous branches once these people left the Pontic steppe for Europe and Central Asia.

This new article tends to confirm this hypothesis. The division between R1b1b1 (M73) and R1b1b2 (M269) is very telling. R-M73 is only found in the Caucasus (tiny remnant) and Central Asia, with peaks around the Bronze-Age Sintashta culture (south-east Urals) and around Tajikistan, north-east Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This matches exactly the archaeological sites of the Andronovo culture associated with the spread of Indo-European people and languages from southern Russia to Central and South Asia. R-M73 also follows perfectly the distribution of R1a1a in Central and South Asia.

But what is really important here is that the only region where R1b-M73 and R1b-M269 converge is the same region, with hotspots also in the Caucasus and the south-east Urals. R1b-M269 is also found in Ukraine and Anatolia, a bit in Romania and Bulgaria, then abruptly jumps to the Alpine region, where it reaches its maximum in northern Italy and Alpine France.

Better still, the first subclade of M269, i.e. R1b1b2a (L23), is also found in central Asia and the Caucasus, with smaller peak in central Anatolia and in the Alps. This would imply that the mutation L23 already existed before the Indo-Europeans migration to Europe. It is also the last common mutation of R1b lineages found in the Caucasus. The lineages in the Caucasus range from R1b1 to R1b1b2a, but are mostly R1b1b2a. This give us the timeframe of the settlement in the Caucasus, starting from the end of the Ice Age and ending with the dispersal of the Indo-European people.

From the next mutation in the tree (L51/S167/M412), defining R1b1b2a1, the distribution is almost exclusively Western European. There are just residual percentages in the steppes. This mutation therefore indicate the split between the western and eastern branches of the Indo-European speakers. The split most certainly took place within the steppes, with the R1b1b2a1 cluster at the western end (around the Black Sea), and the R1a1a, R1b1b1 and R1b1b2a* in the Urals-Caspian region. The western branch (Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic) left the Black Sea region, probably in search of copper, tin and gold, and first invaded the copper-rich Balkans, the settled around the Alps, and took over all Western Europe.

and

Quote
The second observation concerns the settlement of Western Europe.

After the arrival of R1b1b2a1 in the Alpine region, some lineages push on to the Atlantic edge of Europe. Based on Myres et al.'s study, it appears that R-L11 lineages quickly split into two groups :

- R-U106/S21 settled in northern Europe, from the Netherlands to south-west Norway. They would mix with the native I1 and I2b population and the northern (proto-Balto-Slavic) branch of the Indo-Europeans (R1a1a), who had already moved to Scandinavia, Germany and Poland during the Corded Ware period. The merger of these three groups would give birth to the Germanic people, who would re-expand south from the 4th century onwards. It still isn't clear whether the presence of U106 in the Alpine region is exclusively due to the Germanic migrations, or if U106 was already present there when R1b arrived in the early Bronze Age.

- R-P312/S116 as spread to all Western Europe, from the Alps and southern Germany to France, Iberia and the British Isles. It can be associated with reasonable confidence with the Proto-Italo-Celtic speakers.

P312/S116 can be further divided in three groups :

-- U152/S28 occupies most of the Alpine region, Italy (especially centre and north), Switzerland, France, Belgium, southern England. It represents the Italic and Gallic Celtic branches.

-- L21/S145/M529 represents mostly the Brythonic Celtic branch (although it originated around the Alps too), with the M222 subclades representing the Scottish and Irish Gaelic speakers.

-- P312/S116* is mostly confined to Iberia and southern France. The high percentage of isolated P312/S116* in south-west Iberia suggests that this was one of the earliest migration from the Alps.


The distribution of R-L11* is also interesting, as it only survived in the Alps, around the Germanic homeland (from Denmark to northern Poland) and in England. It is probably associated with the Germanic migrations too. I would say that it has a link with the ancient Saxons and migrated alongside U106.
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« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2010, 08:21:42 AM »

I'd say Maciamo is heading in the right direction, but I reiterate that I don't think it is quite as simple as it looks on the face of it.

It is possible that M73 is just sitting quietly where it was first born and circulated. But I continue to suspect that it went east long ago with one bunch of IE steppe people, who were absorbed by expanding Turkic power in Central Asia, and so M73 returned west with Turkic-speakers, such as the Timurids, who founded the Mughal Empire in India, and the Turkic Bashkirs. However the mixture of R1b in the Bashkirs suggests an even more complex story. The outlying U152 in the Northern Bashkirs looks like a legacy of the Huns. The Huns overran the steppe and eastern  Europe, including areas which had been settled by Celts, and then were driven back to the Asian steppe, from which the Turks later emerged. The Huns seem to have absorbed some people from their conquered lands.

The Magyars also emerged from the steppe, so that U152 has given Tibor new ideas about their genetic make-up. Hungary has been a big puzzle.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:32:49 AM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2010, 08:33:31 AM »

R1b could indeed have entered the Pontic-Caspian steppe with pastoralists via the Caucasus, but it is not the easiest of routes. There is a massive, snow-capped mountain range in the way. As far as archaeologists can tell, dairy-farming began in Western Anatolia, and crossed from there into SE Europe. It could then move east into the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Archaeologists are divided between these two routes, but David Anthony goes for that western approach, and I follow him. [While feeling that R1b could also have entered later via the Caucasus with the Maikop.]

As I've explained before, I don't expect to see a nice clear route laid out in the DNA of present populations, because of the endless population disruption on the steppe. The Caucasus is very different. It made a handy refuge for populations fleeing from the latest bunch of steppe conquerors. So we can expect to find a good selection of remnant DNA there.    
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« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2010, 08:39:10 AM »

I'll repost here what I said over on my blog re L51/M412:

The Myres paper does an excellent job of dissecting the subclades if R1b. This shows that R1b flowed into Europe from the east. Those men who today carry R1b-L23* live mainly in Eastern Europe or the Circum-Uralic region, the Near East, the Caucasus and Pakistan. That is shown on their Fig 1, map e.

One man carrying R1b-L23* long ago had a son with a new mutation - L51/M412 - from whom most of the R1b-carrying men of Western Europe descend. Myres and colleagues give no map of the distribution of R1b-M412*, though they found some examples in Romania and Turkey, and cite some wider-scattered examples from previous studies. I'm not rash enough to try to guess where exactly the mutation occurred, but it would not be unreasonable to look somewhere towards the centre of the present distribution area of R1b-L23*, since that distribution seems closest to the pattern of radiation from a dense core described by Jacques Chiaroni and colleagues. It seems to spread in roughly all directions from a high-spot in the Caucasus. That distribution is what we would expect from a gradual spread outwards from the point of mutation. (It is far from a perfect example of such a pattern, and seems to have been much disrupted by the periodic population replacements along the steppe.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 06:54:43 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2010, 09:34:35 AM »

I am quiet satisfied by the analysis of Maciamo, who sees in the Region around the Alps one of the centre of dispersion of R1b1b2 in Europe as I have always supported. As I have said many times, also recently, all rotates around R-L51*. My previous analyses, and a map of Argiedude, demonstrated that  this SNP was born in Northern Italy. I asked Argiedude if he has other data and if he made another map. It seems that there is a correction to the data about Turkey, that would have many R-L51* not detected before. If so, I am glad to change my opinion. Also the boy from India with L277 like Burkholder and some Jews makes me think. If so, this would demonstrate that certainly my R1b1b2a, already with this mutation, was  present in some place between Asia and Europe. But I am waiting for aDNA, because my theory of two places which held R1b1b2a (one around the Caucasus and one around the Alps, but from this latter would have arisen R-L51* and all subclades, remembering also the unresolved problem of R-L23+/L150- found in the Italian Romitti) is still valid.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 09:36:12 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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secherbernard
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« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2010, 11:14:11 AM »

The outlying U152 in the Northern Bashkirs looks like a legacy of the Huns.
Why these U152 in the Northern Bashkirs don't appear on maps f, g, j and l of the figure 1 of Myres paper?
May be they are too few to be drawn on the map ?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:17:33 AM by secherbernard » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: August 29, 2010, 11:41:44 AM »

Then Myres et al. have found 14 R-L51*.

France 1
Germany 1
Hungary 1
Ireland 1
Italy 4
Poland 1
Slovakia 2
Slovenia 1
Switzerland 1
Turkey 1

If they had done a map (like that Argiedude did), where would have been the origin, also considering that many countries are near Italy or by other sign were peopled from Italy, see the mtDNA linked to Oetzi in the British Isles?

I cannot say that Italy is loved in the world, but I hope that also contempt is reciprocal.
 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 04:06:24 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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