R-M269 article on Holocene era founder effect on Central and West Europe

[MHammers]

How does this square with the Copper age/Indo-European language expansion? 

Obviously the Zhiv. rate would make it incompatible, but with a germline rate it seems more or less close enough.  If there wasn't so much north Caucasian L23 with high variance, I could accept the study's Balkan Neolithic scenario.  The Urals, Pakistan and Iran also support this, imo.  However, I don't think they included this in their analysis, which was Euro-centric.  I think it's easy to see L51 branching off in Eastern  or Central Europe as a majority L23 population is entering from the east.  Also, there is significant early R1b in Armenia, in which only 26 samples were tested in this study.  I do realize the very small amounts of R1b in Ukraine and Russia are problematic but it's probably been reduced significantly by later Slavic R1a expansions.

[rms2]

The maps are a bit confusing given the data tables.

Apparently they found no U106 in their Swedish sample, and Norway wasn't tested, yet you wouldn't know that from looking at the U106 map in the report.

There were ten S116 in the Swedish sample. Of those, 7, or 70%, were L21+ (M529+). All of those were xM222 (M222-).

In Denmark, 20 were U106+ and 16 were S116+. Of those latter, 7 were L21+ (xM222). Six of the Danes were S116*, which leaves three S116 who were probably SRY2627+ (but we don't know that for sure).

Interesting that their Scandinavian sample, apparently limited to Denmark and Sweden, contained not even a single U152.

Table S4 does show a little bit of U152, but that just adds to the confusion, at least for me, since it's not reported on the other table of totals.

[alan trowel hands.]

The maps are a bit confusing given the data tables.

Apparently they found no U106 in their Swedish sample, and Norway wasn't tested, yet you wouldn't know that from looking at the U106 map in the report.

There were ten S116 in the Swedish sample. Of those, 7, or 70%, were L21+ (M529+). All of those were xM222 (M222-).

In Denmark, 20 were U106+ and 16 were S116+. Of those latter, 7 were L21+ (xM222). Six of the Danes were S116*, which leaves three S116 who were probably SRY2627+ (but we don't know that for sure).

Interesting that their Scandinavian sample, apparently limited to Denmark and Sweden, contained not even a single U152.

Darn.  There goes the Cimbri!

[rms2]

I would be happier with a study that settled for one or two West European nations and tried to use truly representative sampling across the entire geography of the countries studied.

That recent study of France done by the University of Santiago de Compostella in Spain would have been exactly the thing, but it didn't test for P312 or L21, more's the pity.

It figures.

[alan trowel hands.]

It kind of makes you realise the sheer scale of testing that would be required to really produce a detailed reliable distribution and variance picture for R1b1b2 in Europe and SW Asia.  It would have to be enormous and to be honest its hard to see it ever happening.

[Mikewww]

The maps are a bit confusing given the data tables.

Apparently they found no U106 in their Swedish sample, and Norway wasn't tested, yet you wouldn't know that from looking at the U106 map in the report.

There were ten S116 in the Swedish sample. Of those, 7, or 70%, were L21+ (M529+). All of those were xM222 (M222-).

In Denmark, 20 were U106+ and 16 were S116+. Of those latter, 7 were L21+ (xM222). Six of the Danes were S116*, which leaves three S116 who were probably SRY2627+ (but we don't know that for sure).

Interesting that their Scandinavian sample, apparently limited to Denmark and Sweden, contained not even a single U152.

It's a shame they didn't test in Norway.  L21 appears to be the leading R-M269 subclade.  I just counted these a week ago - Norwegian Project:
I1(deep clade TBD)- 38
I1d - 6
R1a1 - 24
R-M269(deep clade TBD) - 41
R-M269/P310/U106 - 1
R-M269/P310/P312/L21 - 10
R-M269/P310/P312 - 6
R-M269/U106 - 1
I - 1
I2 - 4
Q - 3
N - 1
J2 - 1

I also counted in the Scandinavian and Finland DNA projects.  It is noticeable how R1b1b2 is 1/3 Norway but declines in Sweden and drops off in Finland a bunch. Meanwhile, N is dominant in Finland but really drops off as you move west.  I1 is the one consistent player across Scandinavia.

[Maliclavelli]

David Faux has had the papers, also that of Cruciani:

“I note that the Cruciani paper does include Sardinia, and indeed most M269
is U152, so as I have long maintained, this may have great significance in
an attempt to understand the early (Neolithic?) spread of U152. Here one
might posit that U152 arrived with the "sea hopping" from western Asia as
proposed by geneticists and archaeologists. It could also reflect a very
early settlement in Mesolithic times, particularly since an earlier paper on
Sardinia showed the diversity of M269 there to be very high. Much too early
to do much more than idle speculating - but food for thought to be sure”.

I think that all this strengthens my ideas. We shall see.

[Mikewww]

David Faux has had the papers, also that of Cruciani:
“I note that the Cruciani paper does include Sardinia, and indeed most M269
is U152, so as I have long maintained, this may have great significance in an attempt to understand the early (Neolithic?) spread of U152. Here one might posit that U152 arrived with the "sea hopping" from western Asia as proposed by geneticists and archaeologists. It could also reflect a very early settlement in Mesolithic times, particularly since an earlier paper on Sardinia showed the diversity of M269 there to be very high. Much too early to do much more than idle speculating - but food for thought to be sure”. I think that all this strengthens my ideas. We shall see.

I think that the misplaced focus on frequency is a problem for how many will look at the data.  An appearance in a geography is important, but what is more important is the diversity or estimated age by geography.

Look at the two tables below.  Neither the FTDNA projects or the Myres study shows higher diversity in Italy for R-U152.  In fact, Southern Italy, a great "sea hopping" stop, appears to be a drag with lower diversity.  Effectively, the comments you quote don't fit the data.

Maliclavelli, I'm not saying that R-M269 itself does not have great diversity in Italy.  I haven't really studied that. However, R-U152 does not support the case in at least it doesn't seem to emanate from Italy or have been a staging point.  It seems to be more of an end point for R-U152. 

R-U152 Diversity by Country and selected regions for first 25 markers of U152 in FTDNA project AND the Faux web site

East Europe & Mediterranean (but no Italy) __ 103.6%
Alpine Countries & Cisalpine Italy __________ 103.4%
England _____________________________________ 102.3%
Scotland ____________________________________ 101.6%
East Europe & Mediterranean (incl S. Italy) _ 100.7%
France ______________________________________ 99.9%
Switzerland _________________________________ 98.9%
Italy _______________________________________ 98.7%
Germany _____________________________________ 94.1%
Low Countries _______________________________ 91.3%
Iberia (Spain & Portugal)____________________ 89.5%
Ireland (whole island)_______________________ 85.8%


R-U152 Coalescence Times by Country from the Myres study
   
Country   N   Coalescence
Germany       33   9.565766
Slovakia      7   9.316770
England       9   8.454106
Slovenia      6   8.454106
France        14   8.281573
Italy         57   7.768515
Romania       6   6.944444
Greece        7   6.728778
Switzerland   29   6.577069
Poland        5   6.521739
Vaucluse      5   5.253623
Bashkir       8   All same ht
 

The data I've gleaned from the projects includes 493 R-U152 haplotypes, but I'm only using the ones with Old World MDKA's in the diversity numbers I list above.  There are 363 of those........ ummm....  We've got more samples from the FTDNA projects than the study has for U152 and with much deeper resolution.

Some of the Myres sample sizes by country are quite small.  I'm not sure there is enough data in those cases.

[Maliclavelli]

Mike, what I have said about R-U152 in Italy does mean this:  the first theory of David Faux, when I began to write on Rootsweb, then during 2007, was that R-U152 was a Celt marker and its presence in Italy was due to the Celt migration. I had many to say about this: many Celt peoples, like the Boii, were exterminated by Romans and the rest came back to Bohemia, then there shouldn’t be Celt heritage near Bologna (the town of the Boii, but that was before the Etruscan Felsina and after the Roman Bononia) and so on. It was clear that R-U152 in Italy was overall and not only in supposed Celt settlements. The presence in Sardinia, which hadn’t Celt settlements, demonstrated this: R-U152 is in Italy overall and hasn’t anything to do with Celts, without forgetting that Celts and Italics had the same origin and some haplogroups may have come to Italy with Italics during the second millennium BC. But my theory is based on the origin from Italy of R1b1* till R-L51. Then I have supported that these haplogroups migrated to Central Europe and  some returned to Italy with Italics. My times are different from yours or from those of Vizachero, Nordtvedt etc. On this we should discuss. Anyway R-U152 is concentrated around the Alps and there has had its origin. Don’t mind Bashkyrs (I have just seen a TV program on the great  and unlucky Rudolf Nureyev, who was a Bashkyr and probably R-U152): we’ll understand when and from where this haplogroup arrived there. If this is my theory: R in Italy at least till R-L51, I try to understand which subclades were born in Italy or nearby and which returned to Italy, perhaps after thousands of years.

I think it is ridiculous to consider Poland or Ukraine as the origin of the Western European subclades of R as someone is trying to do. First of all they have a low percentage of R1b respect to Italy and their R1b1b2* is that of the Caucasian Refugium, which didn’t generate the subclades. In fact these countries haven’t R-L51, that Italy has and from which derived all subclades. The meaning of the paper of Myers is just this: R-L51 separates a Western Europe from the Eastern one and from Caucasus.
I am not able to post the Argiedude’s map of R-L51: there is the key of all.

[MHammers]

The plain numbers on my map are bland. So here's the same map but with isoclines drawn over it:



http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/R1b1b2variance-ht15ht35withisocline.gif

Is the map you were looking for?  It looks like the origin for M269 could be Turkey just as easily as Italy.  The other one has L51 higher north of the Alps, particularly in East Europe and in  Algeria.  I think Algeria is an anomaly in this case.  Hopefully Argiedude can clarify, but this looks to be inclusive of other subclades rather than just M269* and L51*.

Mike

[MHammers]

Here is some very limited variance data from this study.  With only 10 markers and a very small sample size, I admit there's not a lot of substance.

I took all of the M412/L51* in the supplemental, 14 haplotypes in all.  I threw out one from Ireland and one from Turkey as they are geographically the most distant from the others and to make the samples the same size, 6.  I made a north group from haplotypes from France, Germany, Slovakia (2), Hungary, and Poland.  A south group included 4 ht's from Italy, and 1 each from Slovenia and Switzerland since they both border Italy. 

North - .17
South - .09
This still hints at an older L51* north of the Mediterranean as in Argiedude's map.

[argiedude]

Maliclavelli, tomorrow I'll send you a zip file with all those maps.

[Mikewww]

.. what I have said about R-U152 in Italy does mean this:  the first theory of David Faux...

I'm not taking a position on Faux's theories.  I think any observer that has read his postings over time can figure it out on their own.

... The presence in Sardinia, which hadn’t Celt settlements, demonstrated this: R-U152 is in Italy overall and hasn’t anything to do with Celts,

Possibly, but I didn't think there were many R-U152 haplotypes found.  Do you know how many and how diverse they were?  Remember, Sardinia has had immigrants, including the Normans, which could have brought R-U152. Just because R-U152 make an appearance in Sardinia doesn't prove they are ancient.

[Maliclavelli]

Maliclavelli, tomorrow I'll send you a zip file with all those maps.

Many thanks, Argiedude, but I have your maps (I don't know if all), certainly I have the R-L51 map, but I don't know how to post it here. I asked Mike (and I'll send it to him by mail), asking  how to post it like I knew for all the other forums.

[secherbernard]

Nobody speak about asiatic distribution of R1b haplogroup given by maps of Myres paper, figure 1.
There is a hotspot of R1b north-east of Caspian sea (map c). This hotspot is linked with R1b hotspot on north Pakistan. The hotspot north-east of Caspian sea, matches the Andronovo culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
The link between north-east of Caspian sea and north Pakistan show clearly the migration of indo-europeans during bronze age.
There is also a hotspot of R1b-M269 north of Black sea, on map d of figure 1.
The maps of Myres paper provide strong evidence for a link between R1b and Indo-european migrations from the Steppes during copper age.

[Mikewww]

Many thanks, Argiedude, but I have your maps (I don't know if all), certainly I have the R-L51 map, but I don't know how to post it here. I asked Mike (and I'll send it to him by mail), asking  how to post it like I knew for all the other forums.

Malicavelli, I never figured out how the img /img picture icon tool works on this forum, but I just uploaded the file you sent me so we can look at it from this web site:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/9VnmbNXQ/Map_L51.html

[Maliclavelli]

Malicavelli, I never figured out how the img /img picture icon tool works on this forum, but I just uploaded the file you sent me so we can look at it from this web site:
http://www.4shared.com/photo/9VnmbNXQ/Map_L51.html
[/quote]

Thanks, Mike. I know very well this map. Hope you all may look at it.

[MHammers]

Nobody speak about asiatic distribution of R1b haplogroup given by maps of Myres paper, figure 1.
There is a hotspot of R1b north-east of Caspian sea (map c). This hotspot is linked with R1b hotspot on north Pakistan. The hotspot north-east of Caspian sea, matches the Andronovo culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
The link between north-east of Caspian sea and north Pakistan show clearly the migration of indo-europeans during bronze age.
There is also a hotspot of R1b-M269 north of Black sea, on map d of figure 1.
The maps of Myres paper provide strong evidence for a link between R1b and Indo-european migrations from the Steppes during copper age.

That's the thing, the author's went straight to an LBK scenario and dismissed these areas.  M269* by itself could very well be representative of some of the Balkan and Impressed Ware Neolithic cultures of the 8th to 6th millenium coming from SW Asia, but this study shows L23* oldest in the areas you mentioned, especially the north Caucasus.  So, it doesn't look like L23 was born from those early neolithics in the Balkans or Mediterranean based on variance or frequency.  L23 looks like the Maikop/Yamnaya horizon and L51 could be the  proto-Italo-Celtic speakers once they settled into a more sedentary lifestyle.

[Jean M]

Nobody speak about asiatic distribution of R1b haplogroup given by maps of Myres paper, figure 1.
There is a hotspot of R1b north-east of Caspian sea (map c). This hotspot is linked with R1b hotspot on north Pakistan. The hotspot north-east of Caspian sea, matches the Andronovo culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
The link between north-east of Caspian sea and north Pakistan show clearly the migration of indo-europeans during bronze age.
There is also a hotspot of R1b-M269 north of Black sea, on map d of figure 1.
The maps of Myres paper provide strong evidence for a link between R1b and Indo-european migrations from the Steppes during copper age.

If only it was so easy! :) I'm sticking with the theory of R1b spreading with IE, but how much evidence of the early phases of that we can get out of this data, I don't know.

Map C shows M73, which is the brother clade to the European M269, not an ancestor. Vince V. sees it as closely correlated with Turkic speakers. That observation still holds good with this new data I think. But to complicate matters, some Turkic-speaking peoples, such as the Bashkirs, also carry M269 and/or a subclade. I'm still trying to work this out.

The hotspot north of the Black Sea on Map D could just as easily reflect relatively recent arrivals there as early ones. The region has had so many population changes, including Iron Age Celts and Goths settling there, then Catherine the Great's encouragement to Germans to migrate to Ukraine and the Crimea, after she seized these lands from the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century.

Notice that the hot spot does not appear on Map E, which is the crucial one, along with the very interesting Map H.

[Maliclavelli]

You all have the paper. How can I examine it without having it. May anyone post it to me?

gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com

Thanks.

[secherbernard]

You all have the paper. How can I examine it without having it. May anyone post it to me?

gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com

Thanks.

That's the paper: http://tinyurl.com/35h3usg

[secherbernard]

Map C shows M73, which is the brother clade to the European M269, not an ancestor. Vince V. sees it as closely correlated with Turkic speakers. That observation still holds good with this new data I think. But to complicate matters, some Turkic-speaking peoples, such as the Bashkirs, also carry M269 and/or a subclade. I'm still trying to work this out.

Turkic language expansion is dated to the middle age. What language spoke these people 4000 years ago?
How do you explain the clear link on the Myres map c, between R1b at the north-east of the Caspian and R1b at the north of Pakistan?

[secherbernard]

The hotspot north of the Black Sea on Map D could just as easily reflect relatively recent arrivals there as early ones. The region has had so many population changes, including Iron Age Celts and Goths settling there, then Catherine the Great's encouragement to Germans to migrate to Ukraine and the Crimea, after she seized these lands from the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century.

Notice that the hot spot does not appear on Map E, which is the crucial one, along with the very interesting Map H.

If the hotspot north of the black sea reflects recent arrivals from Europeans like celts or Germans, we should see it on the map f. It is not the case.

[Maliclavelli]

That's the paper: http://tinyurl.com/35h3usg

Many thanks, Secherbernard, but I have had it directly by Vincent Vizachero and already read it. Your link will be anyway useful for everybody. Thanks.

[Maliclavelli]

I don’t know if someone has noted before that the modal for R-L23* (see Table S2) in Switzerland
(14, 12, 13-28, 24, 11, 14, 12, 12, 11) is the same of the Jewish R-L23*. Some Jew may think that they are the remnants of the Jews who migrated from Italy to the Rhine Valley (I have always said the contrary).
There is a research, that of Wayne Kaufman on the Burkholder and the SNP L277, found thus far on one Hutterite and one Jew, that is trying to shed light on the question (mysterious is the third tested with this SNP: from India said CeCe More). This cluster has DYS385=13-28, DYS392=14 but DYS393=13 and DYS461=12.
I suggested to Kaufman to search, beyond Switzerland, also on the mountains of Central Italy (see D’Aurora: Ysearch ID RD6J3), who maintains the original DYS393=12.