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MHammers
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« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2010, 12:16:34 PM »

I think another thing to consider in the neolithic vs. copper age debate is time of expansion.   The bulk of L51+ is in central-west europe.  The bulk of L23* is further east and south to a lesser extent.  The farmers were in the southern Balkans roughly 2,000 years or so, before the wave hit central Europe with LBK, whether it was migration or acculturation. 

The snp structure of r1b is more rapidly branching whereas the neolithic expansion is a multi-millenium event with some known population crashes and climate disruptions.  R1b could have been a 2 pronged-expansion into Europe originally from SW Asia: Balkan/Mediterrean Neolithic mostly M269 and other pre-L23 and Copper age L23+ which is where most of today's L51+ derives.
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« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2010, 12:41:17 PM »

R-U152 Relative Diversity & Count for 25 marker Hts:

103.4 46 Alpine Countries (exc. France) & Cisalpine Italy


Can you separate this into North Italy and Alpine (aka German) samples?
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« Reply #102 on: August 29, 2010, 06:21:37 PM »

Maciamo's comments are very interesting and on the right track. If we do a hot spot analysis of Table S4 it is quiet revealing.

http://www.box.net/shared/ib5h49mzlh

Looking at M222 and tracing it back to M269 we get

Sub Clade     Highest Frequency
M222            Ireland
L21 (M529)    Ireland
P312             Iberia, Ireland
L11               Switzerland, Germany
L51 (M412)    Ireland, France
L23               Balkans, Crete
M269 (all)      Ireland

This suggests two routes to the Isles, via the great rivers, Danube, Rhine, Rhone, Halstatt, France and via the Atlantic Facade, Iberia, France, Ireland.
This would appear to support the new theory of Cunliffe and Koch of Celtic from the West.
The origin of M269 in Anatolia circa 10,000 bce would be interesting as it corresponds to the period of Gobeki Tepe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Gerard.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 07:39:42 PM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: August 29, 2010, 10:14:54 PM »

R-U152 Relative Diversity & Count for 25 marker Hts:

103.4 46 Alpine Countries (exc. France) & Cisalpine Italy


Can you separate this into North Italy and Alpine (aka German) samples?
Here is the definition I used for Cisalpine Gual - Emilia-Romagna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Liguria, Lombardy, Piedmont, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Veneto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpine_Gaul

R-U152 Relative Diversity (from DNA projects including Faux web site)

105.5 __ 17 __ Old Cisalpine Gaul (N. Italy)
099.6 __ 29 __ Alpine Countries (Switzerland & Austria)
094.1 __ 51 __ Germany
091.5 __ 04 __ Southeast France (very small sample)
089.7 __ 13 __ Italy except Cisalpine Gaul


Yes, U152 looks to be oldest in Northern Italy of anywhere in Western Europe.

Well, I also have a very high diversity in North & Central France (Paris on up through Normandy) for U152.  There are 10 haplotypes there that I did the calculation on. I don't know what this means.

Please note that I'm using 25 markers, which is actually more than the Myres study uses.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 10:15:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2010, 11:09:45 PM »

Superb, Mike, absolutely outstanding. I'm going to make a map to represent your data, so if you'd like to add any data points or observations, go right ahead.

As for north France looking out of place: maybe that's a legit and strange result, or more likely, we're dealing with small sample sizes, and there will always be statistical outliers.

North Italy's R1b1b2 is almost 60% U152. When I calculated the variance for the ht15 (L11) samples, North Italy had a notably lower score than West or Northeast Europe. It had 0,22, while typical values elsewhere were 0,24 to 0,26. Oh, and I excluded L11- samples by discarding haplotypes with 393=12, so in fact my North Italian samples contained a greater percentage than "almost 60%", more like 65% of them were U152. In other words, that variance was reflecting to a large measure the variance of U152. Meaning that the variance of U152, even in North Italy where it's on the high end in your estimates, is pretty low relative to other haplogroups. I'm sure you've already compared U152, U106, P312*, and L21 with each other. What are those results like?

U152 has U152*, L2*, L20, and L4. I think L4 is a Jewish clade. Time to figure out how the other 3 are distributed. Or do we know that, already?
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« Reply #105 on: August 30, 2010, 08:48:47 AM »

Superb, Mike, absolutely outstanding. I'm going to make a map to represent your data, so if you'd like to add any data points or observations, go right ahead.
... I'm sure you've already compared U152, U106, P312*, and L21 with each other. What are those results like?  ...
U152 has U152*, L2*, L20, and L4. I think L4 is a Jewish clade. Time to figure out how the other 3 are distributed. Or do we know that, already?
L4 is so small that it is hard to expect much out of any statistics derived.  I don't think it is worth wasting time on calculations on haplotypes less than 25 in length... here is my count (N) of available 25 STR R-U152 haplotypes:

N ____ Diversity _ Variance
422 __ 100.4 _____ 104.8    - R-U152+ (all incl. below))
184 __ 102.5 _____ 101.9    - R-U152/L2+ (all)
041 __ 101.7 _____ 108.6    - R-U152/L2/L20+
105 __ 103.2 _____ 099.5    - R-U152/L2* (L20-)
005 __ 040.9 _____ 023.3    - R-U152/L4+

Of the 422 total 25 length Hts, over 300 have Old World MDKA's listed.

I've got the same kind of info for all P312's subclades as well as P312*.  I think we can figure out P312, at least in Western Europe.  The data to the east is very spotty, but it does look old (high diversity).  Southeast France seems to be cross-roads where you can find a little of each of P312's subclades, which are by nature, Western.   I think there will be SNP's discovered for Eastern P312 as well, we just don't have enough testing of them.


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« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2010, 10:02:37 AM »

David Faux has had the papers, also that of Cruciani:
“I note that the Cruciani paper does include Sardinia, and indeed most M269
is U152, so as I have long maintained, this may have great significance in an attempt to understand the early (Neolithic?) spread of U152. Here one might posit that U152 arrived with the "sea hopping" from western Asia as proposed by geneticists and archaeologists. It could also reflect a very early settlement in Mesolithic times, particularly since an earlier paper on Sardinia showed the diversity of M269 there to be very high. Much too early to do much more than idle speculating - but food for thought to be sure”. I think that all this strengthens my ideas. We shall see.

I think that the misplaced focus on frequency is a problem for how many will look at the data.  An appearance in a geography is important, but what is more important is the diversity or estimated age by geography.

Look at the two tables below.  Neither the FTDNA projects or the Myres study shows higher diversity in Italy for R-U152.  In fact, Southern Italy, a great "sea hopping" stop, appears to be a drag with lower diversity.  Effectively, the comments you quote don't fit the data.

Maliclavelli, I'm not saying that R-M269 itself does not have great diversity in Italy.  I haven't really studied that. However, R-U152 does not support the case in at least it doesn't seem to emanate from Italy or have been a staging point.  It seems to be more of an end point for R-U152.  

R-U152 Diversity by Country and selected regions for first 25 markers of U152 in FTDNA project AND the Faux web site

East Europe & Mediterranean (but no Italy) __ 103.6%
Alpine Countries & Cisalpine Italy __________ 103.4%
England _____________________________________ 102.3%
Scotland ____________________________________ 101.6%
East Europe & Mediterranean (incl S. Italy) _ 100.7%
France ______________________________________ 99.9%
Switzerland _________________________________ 98.9%
Italy _______________________________________ 98.7%
Germany _____________________________________ 94.1%
Low Countries _______________________________ 91.3%
Iberia (Spain & Portugal)____________________ 89.5%
Ireland (whole island)_______________________ 85.8%



R-U152 Coalescence Times by Country from the Myres study
   
Country   N   Coalescence
Germany       33   9.565766
Slovakia      7   9.316770
England       9   8.454106
Slovenia      6   8.454106
France        14   8.281573
Italy         57   7.768515
Romania       6   6.944444
Greece        7   6.728778
Switzerland   29   6.577069
Poland        5   6.521739
Vaucluse      5   5.253623
Bashkir       8   All same ht
 


The data I've gleaned from the projects includes 493 R-U152 haplotypes, but I'm only using the ones with Old World MDKA's in the diversity numbers I list above.  There are 363 of those........ ummm....  We've got more samples from the FTDNA projects than the study has for U152 and with much deeper resolution.

Some of the Myres sample sizes by country are quite small.  I'm not sure there is enough data in those cases.

Maliclavelli,  I apologize for not breaking out Northern Italy's R-U152 diversity numbers.  As you can see from my response (reply 103 below) to Argiedude's request, that Northern Italy actually has more diversity than Austria and Switzerland as well as SE France.  It is still true, however, that Central and Southern Italy have much lower diversity than the Alpine area.

As far as Germany, our DNA project data and Myres don't match.  Myres has Germany with high R-U152 diversity whereas our project data (including Faux's) is lower.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 10:06:11 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2010, 10:39:05 AM »

I wounder if it may be possible to combine these various reports with the French data from the L21 Plus project (both + & -) to produce a better distribution map ?
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« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2010, 10:43:11 AM »

Maciamo's comments are very interesting and on the right track. If we do a hot spot analysis of Table S4 it is quiet revealing.

http://www.box.net/shared/ib5h49mzlh

Looking at M222 and tracing it back to M269 we get

Sub Clade     Highest Frequency
M222            Ireland
L21 (M529)    Ireland
P312             Iberia, Ireland
L11               Switzerland, Germany
L51 (M412)    Ireland, France
L23               Balkans, Crete
M269 (all)      Ireland

This suggests two routes to the Isles, via the great rivers, Danube, Rhine, Rhone, Halstatt, France and via the Atlantic Facade, Iberia, France, Ireland.
This would appear to support the new theory of Cunliffe and Koch of Celtic from the West.
The origin of M269 in Anatolia circa 10,000 bce would be interesting as it corresponds to the period of Gobeki Tepe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Gerard.

Frequency tells you nothing about origin.  Phylogeny, variance and diversity are what matters.  R1b1b2 as a whole piles up in the west at the end of the trail about as far as you can possibly get from its origin point.  The same may well be true of the subclades.
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« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2010, 10:51:35 AM »

As regards the difference in variance and in numbers among North Italy and Central, South, Islands we have two answers: either the coming from Central Europe (which is the old idea all share) or  due to the fact that the coming of agriculturalists from Balkans diluted the presence of the previous haplogroups. You know that probably from South came J2, E-V13, perhaps G etc. (but also on this we should see, because Italy has very ancient haplotypes, more ancient often than those of the presumed countries of origin). Certainly I think didn’t come R. You know what I think: Italy has all the pathway of R from R1b1* to R-L51* at least, and also this paper demonstrates this, as I have demonstrated before. The data of this study don’t disprove, on the contrary demonstrate, my previous analyses and the map of Argiedude (who is preparing  others and I am eager to see them).

I have always thought that the subclades of R-L51 were born out of Italy, after the migration, and some came back to Italy with Italics. For this I have always fought against who thought to R-L152 as a Celt haplogroup: I said it could be Italics, then more ancient. The Celt invasion couldn’t explain the presence of R-U152 overall in Italy (and now with the highest percentage and variance all over Europe). Examining single cases (mine, of some friends tested, of the Italians tested who are present in the forums: Belgeri (and Romitti), Cesaroni, Squecco, many Italians sons of migrated persons in the Americas), I have always invited to be cautious: even R-U106 (Cesaroni, the Brazilian Zeni etc.) I am not convinced is of recent German origin: they could be more ancient, at the time of Italics. We shall see.
But about Celts and Celt language I have wrote many times, already on Rootweb (then before 2008), that the most ancient Celt languages documented are the Lepontic and above all the recent deciphered “Stele di Novilara”, and I have invited to be cautious about the fact that Italo-Celts were born in Central Europe. It could also be true that Italics remained in the land of origin. Every linguist knows that Italy has the highest variance of ancient languages all over Western Europe.

Last but not least: only Apulia has many languages probably close with the Indo-European of the Balkans, of which Albanian remains the last remnant. Probably the agriculturalists from the Balkans took them, then they spoke languages of the Illyrian bough, Greek wasn’t there but arrived later from East (in fact is linked with Armenian) etc. The times are dilated. Everything is more ancient than many are thinking. Also hg. R in Europe.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 01:27:51 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2010, 06:19:51 PM »

This is a chart showing the subclades of U152 as self-reported in DNA Projects. I'm under the impression that L2 is likely the most common haplogroup in U152, instead of U152* or L20, but in the charts U152* usually is the most common. I guess this is because of samples early on which only got tested for U152, before L2 and L20 were available, and signed up on a Project and stayed there since. Instead of trying to estimate the breakdown by haplogroup, what's more revealing, and doesn't suffer from the above problem, is the region to region comparison. Notice how L20 is evidently centered in Germany, and missing in the far out fringes, where L2 and L20 manage to reach. Also note that, if the percentages are accurate, North Italy would have the highest absolute frequency of L20, despite being somewhat lower than north Europe. North Italy would have 3.5% L20, then it goes down to 3.0% in Switzerland, and 2.5% in Germany.



[if you can't see image above click here]
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6856/u152subclades.gif
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 06:20:19 PM by argiedude » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2010, 07:38:13 AM »

This is a chart showing the subclades of U152 as self-reported in DNA Projects. I'm under the impression that L2 is likely the most common haplogroup in U152, instead of U152* or L20, but in the charts U152* usually is the most common. I guess this is because of samples early on which only got tested for U152, before L2 and L20 were available, and signed up on a Project and stayed there since. Instead of trying to estimate the breakdown by haplogroup, what's more revealing, and doesn't suffer from the above problem, is the region to region comparison. Notice how L20 is evidently centered in Germany, and missing in the far out fringes, where L2 and L20 manage to reach. Also note that, if the percentages are accurate, North Italy would have the highest absolute frequency of L20, despite being somewhat lower than north Europe. North Italy would have 3.5% L20, then it goes down to 3.0% in Switzerland, and 2.5% in Germany.

[if you can't see image above click here]
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6856/u152subclades.gif
This is from the U152 and Faux projects primarily:

Of the R-U152 people who tested for L2:
217 L2+
94 L2-

Of the L2 people that tested for L20
45 L20+
123 L20-

L2 is relatively old compared to R-U152 itself.  It was an early branch.
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« Reply #112 on: September 02, 2010, 11:11:20 PM »

[Thanks, Mike, for that info about U152 subclades]



http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8076/m269l23version2better.gif

Using the Myres data, and ysearch and other stuff, I've made a map of the distribution of M269*. I had done a first map about M269* exactly one year ago. I think this new version is much better. Excluding the thousands upon thousands of British samples, I used 26,000 samples to make the map. Myres' samples accounted for 10,000 of these.

I think the new picture is indeed revealing. And I won't spoil it. See for yourself.
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« Reply #113 on: September 02, 2010, 11:32:59 PM »

The thing that jumped out at me is the 6.7% on the Island of Cypress.. a key early Neolithic stage, if I remember my Cunliffe readings.  However, that is 1 of 15 if my math is right so I don't know if that is conclusive.

I don't see much R-M269* directly north and northwest of the Black Sea.  I do it see it in the Balkan Peninsula and Romania with some decent frequency in good sample sizes.

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/balkans-map/early-neolithic.htm
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/balkans-map/early-bronze.htm
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:37:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2010, 01:42:30 AM »

[Thanks, Mike, for that info about U152 subclades]



http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8076/m269l23version2better.gif

Using the Myres data, and ysearch and other stuff, I've made a map of the distribution of M269*. I had done a first map about M269* exactly one year ago. I think this new version is much better. Excluding the thousands upon thousands of British samples, I used 26,000 samples to make the map. Myres' samples accounted for 10,000 of these.

I think the new picture is indeed revealing. And I won't spoil it. See for yourself.
Nice work, Argiedude.  The trail of M269* is pretty clear.  If only we knew where L23 branches off.   Are the haplotypes long enough to get a basic picture of the variance in the more frequent areas?
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« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2010, 03:15:34 AM »

Argiedude, as usual I thank you for your map, always useful, but re. R1b1b2(L23-) we have discussed so long and many times in the past. There are tens of postings here but also on “Dienekes blog” where I demonstrated that many samples from other countries were of Italian extraction (I remember Ventura from Turkey and I exhibited a letter of a relative of his which demonstrated his Italian origin). It will be a chance, but between the only two Italians tested by me (and by SMGF because for free) one probably is R-U152 (Malvolti) and the other, my cousin’s husband Fabrizio Federighi, from deep Tuscany, is R1b1b2 (L23-).
Re. Jews, we agreed that, not having found a paper on Middle East no one R1b1b2 (L23-), those Jews R1b1b2 (L23-) without doubt were an introgression from elsewhere: they are many, but descend all from a recent unique ancestor.
The one of Cyprus has no meaning, not only for the specimen tested, so few, but also because this island was under Venice and has a high percentage of R-U152 that even Dienekes attributes to  Venetians.  
We have from your map no arrival from Pontic steppes nor from Caucasus. If you remember, my theory is that from the Italian refugium (that was not only Italy but the North Adriatic not yet submerged and the Balkans’ coasts) during the Younger Dryas, R1b1b2 (L23-) migrated to South Balkans and Black Sea shores, from where they returned to North with the diffusion of agriculturalists from Anatolia. In fact South Balkans have R1b1b2: L23- and L23+, but haven’t the subclades, which were born evidently more Northwards.

A note: unfortunately I cannot see by this computer the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, but I saw it yesterday from another computer: three of the R1b1b2 have L151+: evidently they are a link like Romitti from the previous haplogroup and the following. They are Merkel, Schneider and Matias.
Judging from surnames, two Germans and a Portuguese. Then R1b1b2 was developing in Western Europe, and only in Western Europe.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 03:37:13 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: September 05, 2010, 01:28:10 PM »

This is a chart showing the subclades of U152 as self-reported in DNA Projects. I'm under the impression that L2 is likely the most common haplogroup in U152, instead of U152* or L20, but in the charts U152* usually is the most common. I guess this is because of samples early on which only got tested for U152, before L2 and L20 were available, and signed up on a Project and stayed there since. Instead of trying to estimate the breakdown by haplogroup, what's more revealing, and doesn't suffer from the above problem, is the region to region comparison. Notice how L20 is evidently centered in Germany, and missing in the far out fringes, where L2 and L20 manage to reach. Also note that, if the percentages are accurate, North Italy would have the highest absolute frequency of L20, despite being somewhat lower than north Europe. North Italy would have 3.5% L20, then it goes down to 3.0% in Switzerland, and 2.5% in Germany.



[if you can't see image above click here]
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6856/u152subclades.gif
Splendid effort argiedude!  Very informative visual.

The problem of conflating the various subgroups and "general U152" whose subclade status is unknown is not largely a thing of the past.  In Fauxes database an orange L2- box indicates U152*.  A L2+ in an green box notes that this haplotype is L2+, and if followed by an orange box with Neg this means L20 negative as tested by FTDNA or other company.  Those who are confirmed to be L20+ will have two green boxes side by side with L2+ and Pos written in each of the two boxes.  The U152 Project data is organized by color coding with a light yellow being L20+, and red being L2+, L20- and so on.  As time goes on both databases have been showing fewer numbers of those who are U152 but subclade unknown.

Would it be possible to amend your chart slightly to take into consideration the above, and to essentialy remove those U152 who have not been tested for L2 and L20.  There is an L20 from north of Oslo for your Norway etc. category.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:29:16 PM by Norwich » Logged
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« Reply #117 on: September 05, 2010, 05:10:26 PM »

Norwich, to do this more accurately, instead of using ysearch samples as I did, we could use DNA Project samples, which have a sequentially generated identifying label that indirectly indicates when the sample was tested, so that we could then eliminate the early samples, when it wasn't standard practice to test all U152 for L2 and L20. But I think we'll find less samples from DNA Projects than from ysearch, and the ysearch sample sizes I used weren't exactly excellent.
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« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2010, 12:19:55 AM »

Norwich, to do this more accurately, instead of using ysearch samples as I did, we could use DNA Project samples, which have a sequentially generated identifying label that indirectly indicates when the sample was tested, so that we could then eliminate the early samples, when it wasn't standard practice to test all U152 for L2 and L20. But I think we'll find less samples from DNA Projects than from ysearch, and the ysearch sample sizes I used weren't exactly excellent.
I've got all the U152 data I could get from FTDNA projects and from Faux's site.  I did another scrape of the FTDNA R-U152 project on Friday.  All of this data is in the FILES section of the P312 Yahoo group.  L2? would be those listed as L2+ but I have no knowledge of if they were tested for L20.  Of course L2* means they were L20-.  U152* means L2- and U152** means L2- L4- while U152? means U152+ but I don't have knowledge of any L2 and L4 testing.

__U152______508
____L2______226
______L20___45
______L2*___131
______L2?___50
____L4______5
____U152*___96
____U152**__17
____U152?___164

Not many, but a couple of the kit #s had conflicting (or at least incomplete info) between the R-U152 project and Faux.  I don't think there will be any material difference as far as statistics going.
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« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2010, 10:38:26 AM »

Norwich, to do this more accurately, instead of using ysearch samples as I did, we could use DNA Project samples....
I have found errors in Ysearch.  Besides, modal and artificial haplotypes, there are times when even the haplogroup says "(tested)".  I've got an example of a Grimm who is P312+ L21- in the P312 project and is R1b1b2a1b5 (tested) in Ysearch.
Another anomaly I found was a Brousse who is SRY2627+ in that FTDNA project but the same surname with the pretty much the same haplotype shows up out at the R1b1c10_Data web site.
There is just so much data, we are bound to have errors so I think trying to get as many as possible into the FTDNA Haplogroup projects is key.
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« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2010, 01:20:06 PM »

Heber has made a point on another thread about the P312*(S116*) in the Myres study.  
Quote from: Myres_et_al
Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116 assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116* (xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia...
Here are the frequency percentages for Iberia.
Quote from: Myres_S4
Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116 assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116* (xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia...

Location ___________ S116(xM529xU152) _ M529(xM222) __ M222 __ U152_
Spain - Sevilla _______ 0.520 __________ 0.008 _______ 0 _____ 0.008
Spain - Leon __________ 0.470 __________ 0.024 _______ 0 _____ 0.024
Portugal - Lisbon _____ 0.440 __________ 0.030 _______ 0 _____ 0.030
Spain - Santander _____ 0.374 __________ 0.053 _______ 0 _____ 0.031
Spain - Valencia ______ 0.327 __________ 0.009 _______ 0 _____ 0.062

Unfortunately, there is no mention that I can find of Spain or Portugal anywhere in Table S2 and S3 where the variance and haplotype detail is.  The reason is a  Reference #1 for the above excerpt from Table S4 is cited which says "1- Alonso S, Flores C, Cabrera V et al: The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape. Eur J Hum Genet 2005; 13: 1293-1302."

The study, therefore, does not provide much new useful information about Iberia for P312.

I think it is important to note that M222 does not seem to appear at all in Iberia.  It does appear some in France and Germany in the study.

SRY2627/M167 and M153 are included in S116*(P312*) frequency percentages.  These subclades of P312 are both younger (as reflected by variance) than L21 and U152.   What about P312*?

True S116*(P312*) from our DNA projects have these (50 STR non-multicopy) relative variance scores.

Country __Rel Var __Count
France ___ 1.16 __ 18
Gernany __ 0.97 __ 15
Iberia ___ 0.90 __ 20


I only found five ht's from Italy so that is pretty limited (it came out lower than Iberia.) If I change the calculation to only the first 25 markers and pickup more ht's, then the above sequence doesn't change but Italy would be about equivalent with Iberia.  France is still way ahead (older.)

P.S. All of this shows the beauty and necessity of deeper and deeper clade testing and the fallacy of looking at a paragroup (like P312*) as an entity. The answers are different when you peel back the onion and look at one piece at a time.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 09:33:02 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2010, 06:18:13 PM »

Heber has made a point on another thread about the P312*(S116*) in the Myres study.  
Quote from: Myres_et_al
Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116 assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116* (xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia...
Here are the frequency percentages for Iberia.
Quote from: Myres_S4
Within the three major sub-haplogroups of the S116 assemblage further geographic localization is evident. Specifically, S116* (xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia...

Location ___________ S116(xM529xU152) _ M529(xM222) __ M222 __ U152_
Spain - Sevilla _______ 0.520 __________ 0.008 _______ 0 _____ 0.008
Spain - Leon __________ 0.470 __________ 0.024 _______ 0 _____ 0.024
Portugal - Lisbon _____ 0.440 __________ 0.030 _______ 0 _____ 0.030
Spain - Santander _____ 0.374 __________ 0.053 _______ 0 _____ 0.031
Spain - Valencia ______ 0.327 __________ 0.009 _______ 0 _____ 0.062

Unfortunately, there is no mention that I can find of Spain or Portugal anywhere in Table S2 and S3 where the variance and haplotype detail is.  The reason is a  Reference #1 for the above excerpt from Table S4 is cited which says "1- Alonso S, Flores C, Cabrera V et al: The place of the Basques in the European Y-chromosome diversity landscape. Eur J Hum Genet 2005; 13: 1293-1302."

The study, therefore, does not provide much new useful information about Iberia for P312.

I think it is important to note that M222 does not seem to appear at all in Iberia.  It does appear some in France and Germany in the study.

SRY2627/M167 and M153 are included in S116*(P312*) frequency percetnages.  These subclades of P312 are both younger (as reflected by variance) than L21 and U152.   What about P312*?

True S116*(P312*) from our DNA projects have these (50 STR non-multicopy) relative variance scores.

Country __Rel Var __Count
France ___ 1.16 __ 18
Gernany __ 0.97 __ 15
Iberia ___ 0.90 __ 20


I only found five ht's from Italy so that is pretty limited (it came out lower than Iberia.) If I change the calculation to only the first 25 markers and pickup more ht's, then the above sequence doesn't change but Italy would be  about equivalent with Iberia.  France is still way ahead (older.)

P.S. All of this shows the beauty and necessity of deeper and deeper clade testing and the fallacy of looking at a paragroup (like P312*) as an entity. The answers are different when you peel back the onion and look at one piece at a time.


That is so true. I think little by little a hell of a lot of L21 for example is being placed in clades and clusters which have suggested MRCA dates that are a lot younger than L21.  I wonder if this process of identifying clusters will eventually end up revealing that a very large chunk of L21 of today are the descendants of a dozen or so men who lived a long time after L21.  If that is true then it really does show how much the clade count of today could be unrelated to the clade count of a few thousand years ago. 
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« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2010, 03:54:46 PM »

That is so true. I think little by little a hell of a lot of L21 for example is being placed in clades and clusters which have suggested MRCA dates that are a lot younger than L21.  I wonder if this process of identifying clusters will eventually end up revealing that a very large chunk of L21 of today are the descendants of a dozen or so men who lived a long time after L21.  If that is true then it really does show how much the clade count of today could be unrelated to the clade count of a few thousand years ago. 
That's an interesting thought.  If so, who would those few large, but young clade progenitors be?  By the time of these few "large young" clade progenitors, I would think we'd be in the Bronze Age or even Iron Age.  Who would these progenitors be?  Celtic tribal chieftains?
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« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2010, 04:23:13 PM »

That is so true. I think little by little a hell of a lot of L21 for example is being placed in clades and clusters which have suggested MRCA dates that are a lot younger than L21.  I wonder if this process of identifying clusters will eventually end up revealing that a very large chunk of L21 of today are the descendants of a dozen or so men who lived a long time after L21.  If that is true then it really does show how much the clade count of today could be unrelated to the clade count of a few thousand years ago. 
That's an interesting thought.  If so, who would those few large, but young clade progenitors be?  By the time of these few "large young" clade progenitors, I would think we'd be in the Bronze Age or even Iron Age.  Who would these progenitors be?  Celtic tribal chieftains?

Mike

You are our resident L21 cluster expert so you are the right person to ask what proportion of Irish L21 fits into identifiable clades and clusters, obviously including M222, Irish Sea, south Irish, Irish type 2 and all the others.  I am guessing it must be a very large chunk but I do not know.  That is really what I am driving at.  A heck of a lot of Irish L21 is because of big cheeses having a lot of descendants and it strikes me that a good many of these clades and cluster seem to be Early Medieval or perhaps a little older but generally far younger than L21.  It must be the  interclade or intercluster aspect that gives much of the age of Irish L21.  If you took away these late clusters Ireland would have a hell of a lot less L21 and its hard to know what the yDNA landscape of Ireland looked like in the BC era.  What was there in the places that were later filled by huge L21 clusters.  Other L21?  I suspect that fact that so many of the Irish clusters are L21 and there are no great clusters from other R1b1b2 clades dies suggest it was mainly other L21. 
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« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2010, 04:52:33 PM »

That is so true. I think little by little a hell of a lot of L21 for example is being placed in clades and clusters which have suggested MRCA dates that are a lot younger than L21.  I wonder if this process of identifying clusters will eventually end up revealing that a very large chunk of L21 of today are the descendants of a dozen or so men who lived a long time after L21.  If that is true then it really does show how much the clade count of today could be unrelated to the clade count of a few thousand years ago. 
That's an interesting thought.  If so, who would those few large, but young clade progenitors be?  By the time of these few "large young" clade progenitors, I would think we'd be in the Bronze Age or even Iron Age.  Who would these progenitors be?  Celtic tribal chieftains?

Mike

You are our resident L21 cluster expert so you are the right person to ask what proportion of Irish L21 fits into identifiable clades and clusters, obviously including M222, Irish Sea, south Irish, Irish type 2 and all the others.  I am guessing it must be a very large chunk but I do not know.  That is really what I am driving at.  A heck of a lot of Irish L21 is because of big cheeses having a lot of descendants and it strikes me that a good many of these clades and cluster seem to be Early Medieval or perhaps a little older but generally far younger than L21.  It must be the  interclade or intercluster aspect that gives much of the age of Irish L21.  If you took away these late clusters Ireland would have a hell of a lot less L21 and its hard to know what the yDNA landscape of Ireland looked like in the BC era.  What was there in the places that were later filled by huge L21 clusters.  Other L21?  I suspect that fact that so many of the Irish clusters are L21 and there are no great clusters from other R1b1b2 clades dies suggest it was mainly other L21. 
I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I'll look at it.  Counting the #'s of L193, L226, M222 etc. is easy but when you get into SNP-less clusters like Scots, Little Scots, Irish T4, etc. it's get harder because clusters are puffy entities. It's hard to know where they truly begin and end (STR wise).  It's speculative.
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