R-P312* in Belgium

[rms2]

A new Belgian R-P312* joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project today: De Vriese, kit E10513 (no Ysearch yet), whose ancestor came from Ruiselede in West Flanders.

He's the fourth Belgian R-P312* in the project, and all of them have Flemish surnames. Thus far there's not a single Walloon among them.

[OConnor]

I was reading about the Spanish Netherlands.
Can we rule out any P-312 influence from Spain?
http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=spanish%20netherlands&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA

[Mikewww]

A new Belgian R-P312* joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project today: De Vriese, kit E10513 (no Ysearch yet), whose ancestor came from Ruiselede in West Flanders.
He's the fourth Belgian R-P312* in the project, and all of them have Flemish surnames. Thus far there's not a single Walloon among them.

Here are the P312* that I can see from Belgium:
fN76155   De Keukelare   Belgium, Oost-Vlaanderen (East Flanders), Eke
fE10513   De Vriese   Belgium, West Flanders, Ruiselede
fN64031   Groetaers   Belgium, Antwerp
f86044   Verelst      Belgium, Antwerp, Lier

I found these SRY2627(M167) guys there as well:
fN72247   Govaert    Belgium
fN47983   Verbeeck   Belgium, Antwerp, Aartselaar
fE2318   Wangermez   Belgium, Wallonia, Hainaut, Beclers

[rms2]

There is also a handful of U152 guys from Belgium, but thus far we don't have any L21 guys there.

[rms2]

I was reading about the Spanish Netherlands.
Can we rule out any P-312 influence from Spain?
http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=spanish%20netherlands&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA

I don't think one can totally rule it out, but I don't think it could have made that much of a genetic impact.

[alan trowel hands.]

Each P312* means an L21 test and presumably some of the U152 mean deep clade testing that included L21.  So, it seems to be telling us something that L21 has not been discovered there.  At the very least it seems that L21 is not abundant there.  Then again is it that we are not picking up the Walloons?  The coast with all its trading and maritime traditions seems to be Flemish while the Walloons are land-locked.  Did this effect migration patterns to America?  It kind of reminds me of that other linguistically divided country Switzerland where it looks to me like the people being picked up are largely the German speaking ones nearest the Rhine. I think deep clade studies of Belgium and Switzerland that straddle the Celtic (later Latin) - German divide would be very interesting.  I have a feeling that some strong patterns of difference will emerge.  It may be that we essentially are not seeing the more undiluted non-German populations in these countries.       

[rms2]

I wonder. All of those clades, including P312*, have been available a lot longer than L21 has. Aside from the fact that Belgium is grossly under represented in dna testing, how many tested back before L21 was available and got an asterisk? I mean, the results we have, especially the U152 and SRY2627 results, represent, at least in part, testing from before L21 and perhaps even P312 were available.

[rms2]

I wonder. All of those clades, including P312*, have been available a lot longer than L21 has. Aside from the fact that Belgium is grossly under represented in dna testing, how many tested back before L21 was available and got an asterisk? I mean, the results we have, especially the U152 and SRY2627 results, represent, at least in part, testing from before L21 and perhaps even P312 were available.

L21 is relatively common in the Netherlands and Germany and has been found nearby Belgium in France and Luxembourg.

Doesn't that seem rather odd?

[rms2]

I just checked. Right now there are only 455 men in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database who identify themselves as being Belgian or of Belgian descent.

[Mikewww]

There is also a handful of U152 guys from Belgium, but thus far we don't have any L21 guys there.

Here are the U152 guys I've found:
f105306   Lacroix   Belgium, Wallonia, Liége, Esneux
yBN9QP   WIche   Belgium, East Flanders, Ghent
f88594   Vermaete   Belgium, West Flanders, Meulebeke
fN13711   Van Brakel   Belgium, East Flanders, Wortegem
fFau10   Bodart   Belgium, Wallonia, Namur, Yvoir
yH7MKQ   Van Langenhove   Belgium, East Flanders, Lebbeke
fN73068   Cossart   Belgium, Wallonia, Liège
yYTSY2   De Bettonville   Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Wonck
fN72386   Joossens   Belgium, Antwerp
f159817   Le Molnier dit Bareit   Belgium

[GoldenHind]

There is also a handful of U152 guys from Belgium, but thus far we don't have any L21 guys there.

Here are the U152 guys I've found:
f105306   Lacroix   Belgium, Wallonia, Liége, Esneux
yBN9QP   WIche   Belgium, East Flanders, Ghent
f88594   Vermaete   Belgium, West Flanders, Meulebeke
fN13711   Van Brakel   Belgium, East Flanders, Wortegem
fFau10   Bodart   Belgium, Wallonia, Namur, Yvoir
yH7MKQ   Van Langenhove   Belgium, East Flanders, Lebbeke
fN73068   Cossart   Belgium, Wallonia, Liège
yYTSY2   De Bettonville   Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Wonck
fN72386   Joossens   Belgium, Antwerp
f159817   Le Molnier dit Bareit   Belgium

It looks to me like a 50/50 split between Flemish and Walloons.

[GoldenHind]

Each P312* means an L21 test and presumably some of the U152 mean deep clade testing that included L21.  So, it seems to be telling us something that L21 has not been discovered there.  At the very least it seems that L21 is not abundant there.  Then again is it that we are not picking up the Walloons?  The coast with all its trading and maritime traditions seems to be Flemish while the Walloons are land-locked.  Did this effect migration patterns to America?  It kind of reminds me of that other linguistically divided country Switzerland where it looks to me like the people being picked up are largely the German speaking ones nearest the Rhine. I think deep clade studies of Belgium and Switzerland that straddle the Celtic (later Latin) - German divide would be very interesting.  I have a feeling that some strong patterns of difference will emerge.  It may be that we essentially are not seeing the more undiluted non-German populations in these countries.       

The on-going Brabant study is just such a study that straddles the Celtic/Germanic divide. Unfortunately they aren't testing for L21 at this point, only U106, P312 and U152.

I will say once more that we aren't going to get to the bottom of this mystery until studies include U106 subclades as well as P312 subclades. But I'm not getting into this argument again.