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Author Topic: Frequency of R1b1b2 in India  (Read 2929 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2010, 02:24:43 AM »

Mr Stedman, if you compare your data with 5QXU8 (Ht35_A2_modal_slow_80m) you have a GD of 2 over 25.
Either R1b1b2a is very recent or R-L21 is more ancient than you are thinking. But also Vizachero gives
to R1b1b2a an ancientness of more than 6000 years (I think at least the double).
If you compare your data to Argiedude, R-L21 like you, you have at least a GD of 18 over 37, then, also
calculating the fastest mutation rate, a separation of 2750/3300 years (110 generations).
I you take the 5 fastest mutated markers (linked in the raw data): DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa,b, you
and Argiedude have 3 mutations, then (3x50): 10= 15 generations.
Something doesn't fit.
Probably if you compare your data with a close relative of yours, you find more mutations than with someone
far related to you.
For this I think that there are mutations around the modal we don't count in our calculations because they
are hidden (and probably from this comes the Zhivotovskij's mutation rate).

The samples which have oddities (and are outliers) are the more revealing, because they haven't had mutations
around the modal but for the tangent, and they are the unique real.

Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2a (S136+). K1a1b1 (9932A).
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2010, 08:11:07 AM »

Perhaps another interesting DYS19=10 for Argiedude: 7EWNP (Morgan).
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Maliclavelli


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Jdean
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2010, 12:36:59 PM »

Mr Stedman, if you compare your data with 5QXU8 (Ht35_A2_modal_slow_80m) you have a GD of 2 over 25.

Dave is fine.

I'm off out with the family just now and shall be away from my computer all of tomorrow so I'm afraid I can't really allow the time for a proper response to your ideas.

However I thought you may find this following Ysearch amusing KY9NJ

This is my closest non name match who has tested to 67, and is only 1 of your Ht35 modal.


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2010, 01:09:27 PM »

If the surname of KY9NJ is really "Goff" he could be a French (Breton) R-L21+.

For Argiedude perhaps could be interesting 5769R (Richter) with DYS19=10, but probably he is R-U106. The presence of HT979 (Smith) with DYS19=11 makes us exclude that DYS19=10 is due to a multistep mutation.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 03:26:56 AM »

Argiedude, I am following your generalizations on the Jewish ancestry in Latin America.
Of course I cannot reply because they banned me from those sites. But yours are exactly
generalizations, and science is the science of particular cases.

I think you are linked with these three Callaway, not recently, because you have meaningful
mutations, but certainly you come from the same line. What ought to do a researcher?
To be sure that this is really the YDNA of your family from Lombardy (Italy) testing some
relative from there. Just a Sicilian (Italian American) thought to be an Italian R-L21, but,
probably, being so close to some Irishmen, he was a NPE happened in the USA. You haven't the proof
that this is the YDNA of your Italian family, like I am sure that mine it is having tested my
far relative Giancarlo Tognoni (our branches separated in the 15th century).

If your Italian relatives haven't your DNA, clearly you should think to a NPE happened in Argentina
(among many Italians and Spaniards just an Irish is misfortune, but it is so: only because an Italian
or Spanish DNA would have attracted less attention).
Also these three Callaway are outliers in their family: from where (and from whom) do they come?
You should investigate in their ancestry and this is the work of a scientist who resolves particular
cases and doesn't make useless generalizations.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 04:23:26 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Jdean
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« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2010, 07:16:36 AM »

If the surname of KY9NJ is really "Goff" he could be a French (Breton) R-L21+.

For Argiedude perhaps could be interesting 5769R (Richter) with DYS19=10, but probably he is R-U106. The presence of HT979 (Smith) with DYS19=11 makes us exclude that DYS19=10 is due to a multistep mutation.


Yes his name is Goff, and he has a match with another Goff (not tested at FTDNA) who he has a paper trail going back to somewhere in the US in the 18th C. and a 12/12 match with a Gough (related name) also with a paper trail to the same area who has tested R-L21.

I asked the project administrator what he new about sources for the name outside of the Isles but he got a bit shirty insisting it was a name of Welsh derivation ONLY, the conversation went downhill after that.

Looking at Ysearch 5QXU8 it occurs to me that all of the values bar DYS393 are WAMH, so I don't think it's terribly unlikely for somebody to have a GD of 2 off it. looking at Ysearch there are L21, U152 and M222 people who match it perfectly.

At the end of the day I'm more than a little sure that matches between people with different haplogroups are convergence, and even inside of R1b1b2 haplogroups matches need to be tested to the limits before conclusions can be drawn unless there are a significant no. of shared off modal values or a common surname.

There is a British magician/mentalist called Derren Brown who tossed 10 head in a row, of course he could have done this simply by substituting a double headed coin but he decided to do it the hard way (it took him all day).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown

« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 11:07:15 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2010, 08:02:26 AM »

I don't know if "Goff" is a transliteration of "Gough", but "Le Goff" is a typical Breton surname. But you know that Bretons came from Cornwall after the Anglo-Saxons invasion of Britain, and then the "name" could be the same.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2010, 08:34:37 AM »

I don't know if "Goff" is a transliteration of "Gough", but "Le Goff" is a typical Breton surname. But you know that Bretons came from Cornwall after the Anglo-Saxons invasion of Britain, and then the "name" could be the same.

Some Bretons came from Britain. Certainly not all of them did.
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Jdean
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« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2010, 10:33:32 AM »

I don't know if "Goff" is a transliteration of "Gough", but "Le Goff" is a typical Breton surname. But you know that Bretons came from Cornwall after the Anglo-Saxons invasion of Britain, and then the "name" could be the same.

Some Bretons came from Britain. Certainly not all of them did.

The association between Gough (a Welsh name apparently derived from the Welsh for red Coch) and Goff is well known, and certainly its highest frequency outside of the New Worlds is the Isles. However it's distribution in the Isles isn't exactly a cast iron verification of this and there are a lot of them in East Anglia (supposedly from Flanders) plus the name is found at lower frequencies in Belgium, France, Germany and Spain.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 10:35:02 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2010, 12:31:10 PM »


The association between Gough (a Welsh name apparently derived from the Welsh for red Coch)
[/quote]

Actually Breton "Le Goff" does mean "Smith". Welsh "coch" = "red" is certainly from Latin  "coccinus" from Greek "kokkinos". See Arberesh "i-kuq".
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Maliclavelli


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Jdean
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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2010, 01:05:38 PM »


Actually Breton "Le Goff" does mean "Smith". Welsh "coch" = "red" is certainly from Latin  "coccinus" from Greek "kokkinos". See Arberesh "i-kuq".

It wouldn't surprise me, I'm by no stretch of the imagination a word smith but I read somewhere that the Normans go on better with the Welsh than the Saxons because there was less of a language barrier. Learning French at school (a subject I was dismal at) a class mate that had come from a Welsh language school had less trouble picking up French than others in the class, on the other hand my children who learn Welsh at school (compulsory up to 16 now) tell me there is no similarity.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2010, 04:42:38 PM »


Actually Breton "Le Goff" does mean "Smith". Welsh "coch" = "red" is certainly from Latin  "coccinus" from Greek "kokkinos". See Arberesh "i-kuq".
It wouldn't surprise me, I'm by no stretch of the imagination a word smith but I read somewhere that the Normans go on better with the Welsh than the Saxons because there was less of a language barrier. Learning French at school (a subject I was dismal at) a class mate that had come from a Welsh language school had less trouble picking up French than others in the class, on the other hand my children who learn Welsh at school (compulsory up to 16 now) tell me there is no similarity.
I've read that part of the success of the Cambro-Norman leaders (Cambria is the Roman name for Wales) was the adaptability of the Normans to Celtic traditions. The Normans may have had a heavy  of Romano-Gaulish culture in them.

Henri Hubert, the noted French Celticist, wrote that he thought French sounds like what you would expect Latin spoken by a Gaul to sound like.  I don't know if that's true but the guy spent a life studying the Celts.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 04:43:24 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jdean
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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2010, 07:34:36 PM »


I've read that part of the success of the Cambro-Norman leaders (Cambria is the Roman name for Wales) was the adaptability of the Normans to Celtic traditions. The Normans may have had a heavy  of Romano-Gaulish culture in them.

Henri Hubert, the noted French Celticist, wrote that he thought French sounds like what you would expect Latin spoken by a Gaul to sound like.  I don't know if that's true but the guy spent a life studying the Celts.

I dare say he's right, apart from the fact that he obviously put a lot of thought into this sort of thing, it makes sense. There's going to be a documentary on BBC Radio 4 shortly about the Normans I shall have to make time to listen to it (I expect the rest of the world can pick it up on BBC iPlayer )
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