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Author Topic: R-L277+ and the Jewish clades  (Read 5703 times)
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 08:39:34 AM »

Many thanks, Vincent, even because many of these are already FTDNA customers.
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Maliclavelli


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argiedude
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 06:47:00 PM »

Map of L277, plus a table with 3 of its clusters. If the image is too small, click the link below it.



http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7974/m269l277predictedfromys.gif
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 09:18:53 PM »

Great map, Argiedude! We have the same distribution of the previous maps, with a peak in Middle East/Anatolia and another in Italy. As regards Jews I wrote at the top of this thread that I couldn’t exclude that this haplogroup wasn’t present in Palestine thousands of years ago, but we must understand why many haplotypes are very recent and if they are linked each other and are of ancient Jewish extraction or if are picked up from elsewhere.
The modal with DYS426=10 is Volkov. I have had a long exchange of letters with him, I permitted he had a contact with the unique linked with him who has been tested (apart a Cuban, Perez, difficult to contact, and this could give value to a Sephardic origin). They are true friends and I collaborated with them brotherly.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 09:00:17 AM »

Argiedude, we don’t know if all these individuals, with your haplotype, will be R-L277+. Thus far we have had R-L277+ in individuals not only with DYS389=13-28 (or DYS389II=15) and DYS392=14, but with the not modal DYS461=12 instead of 11, and in Burgholder also DYS393=13. Then the mutation  of DYS461 from 11 to 12 is the basis for discrimination. The clade with DYS578 with 10 instead of 9 and DYS395S1a with 14 instead of 15 seems characteristic of the Jewish clade, evidently a recent clade which presupposes the modal one.

I think that by finding more and more SNPs that will characterize new clades among R1b1b2a we will be able also of discriminating the haplotypes. Yours seems to be yet too general, even though it is already interesting, but, as I have said in my previous post, your map is superimposable to the previous ones.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 02:47:44 PM »

Another Italian  candidate for R-L277+ is NW6FT. The surname Battezzato (like the dialectal more diffused in Sicily Battiato) could make us think to a converted, probably from Islam (but we must know that the great  part of Muslims in Sicily were probably Christians converted before to Islam and  returned to Chistianity). Anyway we are waiting for a deep exam also on this.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 08:37:30 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2010, 03:50:37 AM »

Another candidate to R-L277+ is El-Husseiny from Egypt (Ysearch: B4MJD) with the interesting DYS444=11. He is the closest link to the Jewish clade.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2010, 08:25:20 AM »

If table S3 of Myres et al. can be taken as a specimen of the real percentage and if R-L277+ must have not only DYS389b=15, DYS392=14, but also DYS461=12 and
DYS393=12 (but Burkholder has 13), we have:

Italy 126, 127
Switzerland 173, 174, 175
Turkey 187, 234 (eventually 183 with DYS392=13)
(it must be tested Pakistan 135 and 137).

Of course only the finding of L277+ will be definitive, but it would seem that R-L277+ is a subclade of R-L23+ mostly of the Alpine Region (Italy-Switzerland).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 08:34:36 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2010, 12:05:33 PM »

Looks like someone from Turkey has tested L277+ in the current release of Adriano's spreadsheet.

Vince did not remove the private label from L277 in the Nov. 2nd update of the ISOGG y-SNP tree.  BUMMER!
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« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2010, 04:24:39 PM »

I have written to him (not replied so far) and to Adriano (who knows nothing about him). It would be interesting to know his STRs if he has.
L277 remains private for Vizachero, but L150 (very interesting for my theory) is between L23 and L51 in the last Ytree of FTDNA: is it private too?
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 09:59:49 AM »

Morluk hasn’t yet replied, but he is on 23andME. His surname is Kızılırmak, which is the name of  the longest Turkish river (“Red River” its meaning), born in 1960, living in Canada, mtDNA HV5. On these pages I demonstrated that HV4 was born in Italy, but I have never studied HV5. I’ll do it next.
What can we hypothesize about him? That he comes from the Hittite region of Turkey and, thinking to the other known R-L277 (mostly from the Italian-Swiss region, a Jew and an Indian), probably this haplotype comes from Indo-Europeans (probably from Europe) and its presence in Turkey and India is due to the Indo-European migration. Which was the Indo-European fatherland we’ll be able to know by knowing the origin of R-L277 itself and it isn’t said that it is East Europe. I don’t give any credit to Turkey like Renfrew.
Unfortunately he hasn’t done a STRs test, but it will be very important for understanding something on this haplotype and now lack just STRs from Asia, whereas we have many from Europe and with definite clade.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 06:52:20 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2010, 09:33:22 PM »

A new result was added to Adrianno's spreadsheet a couple of hours ago :
      Assyrian (R-M269, L23+, L277+)

No y-search ID.

I'll check with FTDNA on Thursday to see if the current set of test primers distinguished expected L277+'s from the negatives.
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 11:05:42 AM »

Who are Assyrians? They are Christians of Iraq and Iran, above all  near Urma Lake and who speak Aramaic. I knew one of them on this site (Y= G1, mt=HV4). His origin was Caucasian by the Y, and the mt, even though thought from Middle East, I demonstrated on this site that it is clearly from Italy and the Middle Eastern cluster came from Italy many thousands of years ago. This for saying what? That my theory that R-L277+ is probably linked with Indo-Europeans and their expansion remains always likely: Assyrians are people that can have many origins (Caucasian, Middle Eastern etc.) and Indo-European too, i.e. from Europe (East or West we’ll be able to see when we’ll be able to understand which was their fatherland).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 08:55:18 PM »

Who are Assyrians? They are Christians of Iraq and Iran, above all  near Urma Lake and who speak Aramaic. I knew one of them on this site (Y= G1, mt=HV4). His origin was Caucasian by the Y, and the mt, even though thought from Middle East, I demonstrated on this site that it is clearly from Italy and the Middle Eastern cluster came from Italy many thousands of years ago. This for saying what? That my theory that R-L277+ is probably linked with Indo-Europeans and their expansion remains always likely: Assyrians are people that can have many origins (Caucasian, Middle Eastern etc.) and Indo-European too, i.e. from Europe (East or West we’ll be able to see when we’ll be able to understand which was their fatherland).

Who are Assyrians?  Seriously? 
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Humanist
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« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2010, 08:56:16 PM »

A new result was added to Adrianno's spreadsheet a couple of hours ago :
      Assyrian (R-M269, L23+, L277+)

No y-search ID.


He has not been STR tested. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2010, 04:34:29 PM »

Humanist, unfortunately I can’t see from my PC the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, but I am seeing on Facebook that you have submitted not only yourself (G1) but two other Assyrians R1b1b2a/L23/rs9786602- like the Iranian Chitsatz. Then what I supposed, when Chitsatz by my invite submitted his V3 to “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, that there was an Iranian R-L23+ different from our Western one, is confirmed.
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Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2010, 09:54:04 PM »

A new result was added to Adrianno's spreadsheet a couple of hours ago :
      Assyrian (R-M269, L23+, L277+)

No y-search ID.


He has not been STR tested. 

Any interest in getting a 67 STR test in place at FTDNA?  Those results would both help in estimating the time when L277 appeared and also for providing evidence supporting multiple downstream clusters/subclades under L277.


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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2010, 10:00:20 PM »

Humanist, unfortunately I can’t see from my PC the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, but I am seeing on Facebook that you have submitted not only yourself (G1) but two other Assyrians R1b1b2a/L23/rs9786602- like the Iranian Chitsatz. Then what I supposed, when Chitsatz by my invite submitted his V3 to “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, that there was an Iranian R-L23+ different from our Western one, is confirmed.

Here is Vince's proposed structure for the tree based upon today's 23andMe results:
http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1b1b2Tree.pdf
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2010, 12:44:46 AM »

Thanks, Wayne. You know I have been banned from many sites and I wouldn't have been able to see it.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2010, 01:19:16 AM »

On the line of R-L23 would be me too (Tognoni). I was one of the first to do deCODEme and 23andME, but evidently Vizachero doesn’t like my surname. Anyway everything is going very good for me. The secret of the geniuses is to force the others to work for themselves.
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Maliclavelli


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vineviz
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2010, 08:14:18 AM »

On the line of R-L23 would be me too (Tognoni). I was one of the first to do deCODEme and 23andME, but evidently Vizachero doesn’t like my surname. Anyway everything is going very good for me. The secret of the geniuses is to force the others to work for themselves.
It was nothing personal:  there are others are missing too (I reduced the number of taxa displayed for clarity).  But if you are offended, I'll add you back for the next version.

VV
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2010, 08:17:25 AM »

Any interest in getting a 67 STR test in place at FTDNA?  Those results would both help in estimating the time when L277 appeared and also for providing evidence supporting multiple downstream clusters/subclades under L277.

I agree with Wayne that STR testing would be helpful.  67 markers is the gold standard, but even 25 would be much better than none.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2010, 09:23:43 AM »

It was nothing personal:  there are others are missing too (I reduced the number of taxa displayed for clarity).  But if you are offended, I'll add you back for the next version.
VV
Vincent, of course I am not offended, and by what? Besides I have also the mutation S136 (a deletion of 9 bp in the region of L50, so far documented only in a relative of mine, Giancarlo Tognoni: MRCA about 1450) and it would be interesting to know when it happened. I think that the most important thing is to understand when the mutations of L23 (L277, L405, S136 etc. ) happened: before or after L51? This to understand where the ancestor of all European subclades did live, i.e. the R-L23 from which happened the mutation L51. Watching these data it seems to me that an European (or Indo-European) origin is the most likely. But of course we need more data.
Anyway the presence of Italians is massive, and your diagram lacks the Italian R-L51, who probably are the most numerous, for numbers and variance, if we must believe to the previous researches of myself and Argiedude, who did the maps.
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Maliclavelli


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Humanist
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« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2010, 11:56:04 AM »

Any interest in getting a 67 STR test in place at FTDNA?  Those results would both help in estimating the time when L277 appeared and also for providing evidence supporting multiple downstream clusters/subclades under L277.

I agree with Wayne that STR testing would be helpful.  67 markers is the gold standard, but even 25 would be much better than none.

Hi.  Yes, I most certainly concur with you and Wayne.  I have approached all of the gentlemen, but, unfortunately, none have yet expressed an interest in testing their markers. 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2010, 04:42:36 AM »

On Rootsweb Vincent Vizachero has sentenced about the end of the paragroups, those that were in his mind. Above I had  raised the problem of the dating of the new SNPs found. Re. my SNP (S136) I could say that so far it is about 500 years old, having been found it beyond me only in my far relative Giancarlo Tognoni. Unfortunately I wasn’t able in the past to find the Anonymous Brazilian tested by SMGF and who is probably a descendant of my family and unfortunately many close to me, tested by Ferri in the Modena province, are and must remain anonymous. There is yet open the question if we are Etruscans  (Modena was an Etruscan town) come from Asia Minor about 3 thousand years ago or ancient Italians. Then dating a SNP is difficult but not impossible and this is what we are doing. There where there are more descendants of a SNP, dating will be easier, being we able to reconstruct some bifurcations and try to date them by STRs.
But my (and our) problem is to say where R1b1b2 subclades arose. You know that I think in Italy and others elsewhere and we’ll be able to answer this question if we’ll be able to demonstrate where R-L51 arose. We have a map of Argiedude that (using some analyses of mine) demonstrated that this location was Italy, above all North Italy around the Alps, but I don’t know if this map is always valid. The ht35 project of Vizachero has only 1 R-L51 from Italy among others. Anyway they are pretty all European and I think that if we say Europe we aren’t far from the truth.
Anyway what is demonstrating the long series of SNPs cumulated in one individual like the “three dozens” around M269 Vizachero speaks about? I think a bottleneck, plus or less long. And I think we have an high probability that the survivor of those people has survived in the location where his relatives lived. Then we have had a bottleneck from R1b1* to R1b1b (the new SNPs  L388 and L389) and the Italian Mainenti  (R1b1b1/M73) shares pretty all his SNPs with the R1b1b2. Then the Jew Pasman who is R1b1/V88-/L388/L389, not sharing the other SNPs, isn’t on the line that leads to R1b1b2 (but correct me if I am wrong not being able to see on my PC the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”).
Vizachero is sceptical about the possibility to separate the long chain of SNPs, but sometime we have separated them and if we wont be able to do it in the future it will mean that there was only a survivor of those people. Then we had a bottleneck between R1b1* and R1b1b1/2 and it isn’t said that R1b1b1 is Asian, even though we find now it more in Asia than in Europe.
Where happened the long isolation which led to R1b1b2/M269? Certainly not in recent times nor in an open land, otherwise we’d have found some subclades. For its length we should think to the LGM more than the Younger Dryas (even though I have always thought to this latter), which wasn’t so long to accumulate so many SNPs and we could be always uncertain between the Caucasus or Pyrenees/Alps. The expansion began with R-L23+ in many directions. L277 I think was carried by Indo-Europeans (and now it would be important to date it), L405 seems restrict to Iran (but when? by Indo-Europeans, by Armenians from Europe like pretty all the L23 from Turkey?), L51, as I have said from years, in North-Italy/Alpine Region before the expansion of agriculture to Central Europe. It yet remains a paragroup, those of Ehrman, Romitti, Krueger, Ciulla (his Arberesh origin is hypothetical, even though Argiedude found this clade in the Balkans, but I think having demonstrated that also this clade has its origin in Italy and also the Sicilian Arbereshet carry  pretty all an Italian surname and an Italian origin), me (despite my S136, but I think recent): all Europeans.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2011, 10:50:36 AM »

Vincent Vizachero hasn’t so much patience (“I don't have Tim's patience, so I took a different, easy-living, approach”).
I have even less patience than him, but, remembering what I said before, that R1b1b1 could have arisen in Europe rather than in Asia, I took the R1b1b1 project of Vizachero at FTDNA and have given a glance: the European cluster has more variance than the Asian ones (look at the slow mutating markers rather than the fast ones). Then R1b1b1, like R1b1b2, as I have always supported, was born in Europe.
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Maliclavelli


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