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Author Topic: R-L277+ and the Jewish clades  (Read 5412 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 06, 2010, 02:10:28 AM »

Dear Wayne,
which is the problem? Unfortunately I am not able to consult the Adriano's
spreadsheet from my computer (I should go to another). Which is the problem?
L150- is only found so far on Romitti (the son is waiting for the same exam)
and for me was a sign of the origin of R1b1b2 in Italy. You know that there are
enemies of this position (and of me), in fact I was banned from
Rootsweb and after from "forums-dna", for this I can't reply to you on Rootsweb
(you can find me on Worldfamilies as Maliclavelli or on "Dienekes blog").
How is the question on L150? There is on the Adriano's spreadsheet Mr.
Sutherland who is R1b1b2* (L23-) and L150+. Then L150+ should have exist before
L23+, but we haven't the verification: the two L23- (Crenson and Lanza)
haven't updated their 23andME.
T982M (Goldstein) and many linked to him belong to a jewish clade, very recent
(probably not more than a few generations), linked to other jewish clades more
distant. Which is the problem for you? That Burkholder (5WNY5) is L277+?
And are L277+ some of the jewish clade? If so, and if this SNP is reliable,
we should hypothesize an ancient link between Burkholder and the jewish clade.
But Burkholder is very far from the jewish clade: the link can go back to many
thousands of years, then also the clades closer to this jewish one should have this
SNP, or they could have converged by chance.

Your jewish clade (T982M) has as characteristic:
DYS385b=15
DYS392=14
DYS389-2=28 (15)
DYS459b=9
dYS437=14 (Burkholder has 16, presupposing both the modal 15)
DYS464a and d 15-17 (from the modal 14-18 that Burkholder maintains)
and above all
DYS578=10
DYS395S1a=14.

The 5 fast mutating markers
DYS607=17
DYS576=19
DYS570=17
CDYa=34
CDYb=39
link strictly this clade.

If you let me know which is the problem, probably we can try to solve it
conversing also on worldfamilies.

Maliclavelli (Gioiello Tognoni)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 02:36:40 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 02:15:55 PM »

Dear Wayne,
I think your inquiry is in the right direction and I think it is important
to map, firstly, where this SNP (L277) is found so far. But when we investigate
a question probably must rid ourselves of prejudice: it isn't said that the European
R-L277+s are of Jewish extraction, take in consideration that it could be true
also the contrary.
You ask which is the modal to investigate. Being clearly so far their MRCA (probably
some thousands of years) to construct a modal haplotype it is very rash, as
from there markers have mutated many times and, because I think they mutate usually
around the modal (the modal of that clade), to be sure after so long it isn't
easy.
Probably this is a clade of R1b1b2a diffused many thousands of years ago (we know other
clades: mine (R1b1b2a/S136+) so far has only two indivuduals: me and a relative
of mine). Searching on YHRD it seems that it is diffused above all in Central-Eastern Europe,
but reaching practically every place where R1b is present to-day. We can't exclude that
the Jewish clade is in Middle East from thousands of years, perhaps in a limited number
but multiplied by the expansion of Ashkenazim. We'll be able to resolve the question by
proceeding step by step, constructing the modals one after the other.
Begin with Burkholder. I think that yours, of whom you are waiting for the upgrade to 67 markers
(if he is 177152 at FTDNA), is certainly linked with the other (Ysearch ID: 5WNY5)
in spite of the GD of 8 over 37 markers and in spite of the fact that this would carry us
to about 1250 years ago, probably before the surname was adopted. But I have always
supported that often there are more genetic distance between two individuals closely
related than with many far related, because the back mutations tend to the modal
(and this of course varies in conformity with the markers).
You note the low value of 5WNY5 at DYS534, that is 13, whereas the Jewish clade is closer
to the modal (15). But also in this case has happened what I have supported  many
times in the past: above all the mutations are around the modal, but sometime they go
for the tangent, and we have very different values even for individuals related.
You can see the frequence of DYS534 on "genebase" and it is clear that from the modal
of 15, probably so ancient that is worth for all haplogroups, we go to the extremes of
10 and 20, forward and backward, with a little prevalence for forward. Then nothing new.
We have the example of Ciulla (an Italian of Arberesh extraction), who is R1b1b2a, of what
Argiedude named the "Balkan clade", but that I think finds in Italy the most ancient
specimens, who has DYS534=18: in the same time that Burkholder went from 15 to 13, Ciulla
went to 18, but they have the same ancestor, who is also mine. The others wandered
about the modal.

Good luck for your researches and for truth,

your Maliclavelli
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 03:18:45 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 03:28:52 AM »

Dear Wayne,
I put on Ysearch one of the two Burkholder (NNU9R), who have the same values, and Burkhalter (DRAPF) from SMGF.
About your "Burkholder modal" (RM8A9) I'd say that on DYS390 I'd put 24 and not 23. For the 5 fast mutating markers that define a close relatedness (DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa and b) probably we'd need more samples.
The interesting thing is that they are R1b1b2a with DYS393=13 and DYS461=12.
Probably if you are finding a close ancestor should search in the more conservative zones of the Italian Appennine: see D'Aurora (RD6J3) from Pettorano sul Gizio (L'Aquila) who preserves  DYS393=12, but has DYS389I/II= 13-28, DYS392=14, DYS464=15-15-16-20 with d that was evolving for the tangent (Burkholder has 19), whereas all the others were diminishing the modal of 18, etc.
Probably, if one finds this D'Aurora (or some relative) it would be interesting to test him for L277.

Kind Regards, Maliclavelli
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Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 09:15:14 PM »

I'm finally getting around to monitoring this forum.  I'm VERY busy doing some other things.

I would like to identify additional L150- individuals to force the issue dealing with placing L150 onto the ISOGG tree.  I'm also trying to get individuals who are listed as R1b1b2a in Relative Finder to share and provide the SNP results. So far I am 0 for 6 in that effort.

The 3rd individual who is L277+ at 23andMe is a minor from India. Some items related to privacy need to be addressed before we can get some STR results from that line.

The status of testing for L277 is that it is going to take awhile before we can see a test a FTDNA. 

From Thomas Krahn: The first primer pair for L277 failed and we are currently re-designing them.
Note that L277 is on a inverted repeat sequence on the Yp arm, so there are really two positions that match the L277 flanking region.
ChrY:6214369
ChrY:10336023
An inverted repeat is essentially the same as a palindrome with nearly identical (reverse complement) arms. However with inverted repeats the non-palindromic loop region is significantly larger than the length of the matching arms.

The HUGO reference sequence has both T/A and C/G alleles on these locations. So this marker will definitely be difficult to interpret.


Yes I agree that both Burkholder's who have tested are from the same common ancestor in a more recent time. The age of the surname and the breadth of the family tree is going to require a lot more sampling of lines before a reasonable modal can be constructed.  For my initial investigation it is obvious that the Burkholder's have no close relationship with the Cohane cluster B individuals.   My initial question surrounding the relationship between Cohane and Burkholder has been answered by the STR results.

Until L277 can be tested at FTDNA the emphasis is on locating additional L23+ L150- individuals and L150+ L277+ individuals.  Anyone who tests L150- should also test for L216.

Due to the age of of R1b-L23 and L150 there is lots of room for SNP/haplogroup hunting.  Due to the high GD between Burkholder and Cohane there would appear to be room for formalizing subclusters under L277 once someone develops a test for it.

I think there is sufficient STR evidence to remove L277's 'private' designation on the ISOGG tree.

- Wayne
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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 12:39:02 PM »

The 4th L277+ person has been added to Adriano's spreadsheet.  Time to have L277 placed onto the R-haplogroup tree.

mannoman@earthlink.net
MONTECALVO, IRPINO, ITALY
GABZ5
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 02:30:40 PM »

Great, great, great!

He has DYS393=12 and DYS461=12, like D'Aurora, who comes from the same zone, but he is very different from him. DYS442=17 is =12 for FTDNA.

Great, great, great!
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 04:20:59 PM »

OH MY GOD...

I've just looked at your haplotype, Wayne. Do all the other samples with your mutation have 392=14 and 389B=15 (more commonly reported as 389b=28)?

Because that is a definite clade of L23*... or not, I'm not following too well what you all are saying about L150 and L23, but whatever, in that ballpark, aka ht35, R1b1b2 L11-, or R1b1b2 with 393=12. I've written about it before, noting that it's found everywhere, from Iberia and England, to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and that in the farthest parts, precisely Arabia and Pakistan, it constitutes as much as half of their L23* (aka ht35) samples, while in Europe only about 1/10 of L23* belong to this clade. When I made a map of the variance of "ht35" (R1b1b2 L11-) I excluded the samples that belonged to this cluster, to remove the noise that their off modal cluster was introducing.

Can you please explain to me, as if I didn't know anything on the matter, what's the current deal with L23, L277 (spelled it right?), L150, and any other SNP in that immediate vicinity? Which SNP goes where? What? How?

Wow, thanks so much for posting. And Maliclavelli, also, and all your work in this matter; now I've found out in detail what your SNP is. I knew you were L23, but I didn't know about your private SNP.
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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 04:48:35 PM »

At FTDNA the Burkholder's SNP testing stands at
L49+ L23+ L150+ U106- P312- P311- P310- L216- L20- L2-

combine that with the L51-, L277+ at 23andMe.

Those who are L277+ at 23andMe are L23+, L150+, L51- .  I will leave it to the powers as to where they place L277 but right now I think it should drop in parallel to L51. The placement of L150 depends on whether a meaningful group of L150-'s can be identified. The  There IS something meaningful related to having L277 identified.

Hopefully Thomas Krahn can overcome the technical issues for detecting and reading the L277 result.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 04:59:58 PM »

Argiedude, this is really the "Jewish" cluster, or, better, what Sean Silver considers the certain "Jewish cluster", but with DYS393=12 and DYS461=11, and among Jews, as we have always said each other in the past, very recent. For this you excluded it from your calculation.
But this is another cluster, that of Goulde (and many others closely linked to him among Jews) and of some Swiss Hutterites like Burkholder. They resulted by 23andMe have the SNP L277. There is another individual, a minor Indian, who is going to be tested fro STRs after the due certificates. This cluster has DYS393=13 and DYS461=12 even being R-L23+.
I found on SMGF an Italian, D'Aurora, and put him on ysearch and invited Wayne Kaufman to test him, if he had been able to trace him, because I hypothesized, by his cluster (and he has the original DYS393=12), that he could belong to this SNP, a new interesting SNP in R-L23, which had a Swiss, a Jew and an Indian. As you know that I think Italy is the fatherland of R, this did mean: find in Italy, in the mountainous “Sannio”, in the “Marsica”, where Rome recruited its soldiers.
Now an American, who comes from “Sannio”, named Manno, has reached the “Adriano’s spreadsheet  and resulted R-L277. He is very similar to D’Aurora, but with some mutations which differentiate them by many centuries or millennia.
This is science: to foresee a reality not yet seen by anybody: E=mc2.

I have spoken of my SNP also here on Worlfamilies. I and Giancarlo Tognoni (our families differentiated during the 15th century) have this mutation, tested by EthnoAncestry: a deletion of 9bp in the region of L50, for which I was tested positive by deCODEme, but really a flaw, because I haven’t that 9bp one of which has the mutation L50.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 06:13:43 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 07:03:59 PM »

Ha ha! Beautiful. I just looked at Burkholder and Goulde. They both have the characteristic modal values 392=14 and 389B=15 (usually resulting in 389b=28). Case closed. Wayne, I can assure you, there is absolutely nothing private about L277, it's a very significant haplogroup found from Ireland and Portugal to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, though it never reaches more than 1% in frequency (like so many other widely distributed haplogroups). Very nice. Its potential placement in the y-dna tree is precisely where it would be expected, too. In some regions, about half of the L23+ L51- will be L277+. In others, such as Anatolia, southeast Europe or Italy, maybe 1/5 or less will be L277+. This is a notable haplogroup, nothing private at all. I will try to make a map of its distribution in the next few days. It's extremely easy to identify, if I remember right. Maliclavelli, this haplogroup has nothing to do with Jews. It's of comparable significance, in its presence and extent, to the other 2 "ht35" haplogroups: M269* and L23*(xL277).

Very nice, indeed. Lots of interesting stuff about R1b1b2 coming out lately.

PS: Wayne, Hell of an entry you made into our forum!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 07:05:39 PM by argiedude » Logged

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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 08:42:39 PM »

VinceV indicates that L277 will probably be placed onto the tree with the next revision.

Has anyone with the modal values 392=14 and 389B=15 (usually resulting in 389b=28) participated in the WTY?  Considering the age there is lots of room for additional downstream findings to occur.
\
Actually cluster B of Sean's L23* Cohane group has L277+ present in it. Kit #345.   So there probably will be a formal fragmentation of  the Cohane A & B clusters as testing for L277 becomes available.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 08:45:48 PM by Wayne Kauffman » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 10:55:19 PM »

Actually cluster B of Sean's L23* Cohane group has L277+ present in it. Kit #345.

Where is this?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 02:31:14 AM »

Where is this?

In the "ht35 project" of Vincent Vizachero, amongst the R1b1b2a*, there is  at n°43, kit 435, Grossman. I don't know if is a clerical error the kit 345 of Wayne.

Then a Jewish R1b1b2a/L277+ is doing a WTY. Welcome any new SNP, but for us the question is acquired.
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Maliclavelli


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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 06:36:39 AM »

Actually cluster B of Sean's L23* Cohane group has L277+ present in it. Kit #345.

Where is this?

Clerical error.  The kit is #435
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bCohane/default.aspx?section=yresults
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 03:44:22 PM »

I would like to identify additional L150- individuals to force the issue dealing with placing L150 onto the ISOGG tree.  I'm also trying to get individuals who are listed as R1b1b2a in Relative Finder to share and provide the SNP results. So far I am 0 for 6 in that effort.

The position of L150 is securely on the same branch as L23 and L49.  There are no valid L23+ L150- samples that I am aware of.

The primers that FTDNA use to amplify L150 unfortunately picks up a completely different sequence from elsewhere in the genome (possibly a recombination that hits the Y, but we don't know for sure), and returns an apparent L150- result in folks who are actually L150+.

If we could positively assign this second fragment to the Y, it would show up on the Y tree as a reversion of L150.  But for now, L150 is a dud when tested at FTDNA.

VV
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 06:08:59 PM »

From a Wayne’s private letter of 6 August 2010:

“I see your point with Sutherland being L23- and L150+.  Are those results confirmed at FTDNA?  There would appear to be a miscall with either Sutherland or Romitti (L23+, L150-) results.   With Romitti having L150- at both 23andme and FTDNA I would lean towards Sutherland's results being a miscall.  If Sutherland does have L150+ confirmed at FTDNA then we must consider that they are L150.1 and L150.2   I won't touch the topic as to which one appeared first”.

We all would like understand: why Romitti resulted L150- both at 23andME and at FTDNA? Now the son is under exam, but the first run failed.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 07:22:29 PM »

We all would like understand: why Romitti resulted L150- both at 23andME and at FTDNA? Now the son is under exam, but the first run failed.
I don't know how to explain it better so it can be understood:  L150 occurs in a segment of DNA in which the sequence on the Y is very similar to another sequence elsewhere in the genome.  As a result, sometimes the L150 result is a clean result from the Y and and sometimes it isn't.

Testing the same person over and over usually produces the same result, even when that result is "wrong".
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Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2010, 09:30:43 PM »

BLASTing a 50 or 100bp contig sequence with L150 in the middle of it shows the perfect match on the Y and a decent match on chromosome 2 (Celera alternate assembly).   Depending on the length of the contig this is one of several areas that has the potential to provide a false result for L150.  Designing a reliable set of primers to separate two very similar segments may not be possible.   So L150 will be lumped with L23 and L49
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2010, 10:31:01 PM »

BLASTing a 50 or 100bp contig sequence with L150 in the middle of it shows the perfect match on the Y and a decent match on chromosome 2 (Celera alternate assembly).   Depending on the length of the contig this is one of several areas that has the potential to provide a false result for L150.  Designing a reliable set of primers to separate two very similar segments may not be possible.   So L150 will be lumped with L23 and L49
The recombinant L150 segment may actually not have been previously mapped.  FTDNA's WTY database (FINCH server) contains both the normal and the recombinant fragments.

See here: http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/topic/5895-ht35-project-update/page__view__findpost__p__185574
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 01:47:48 AM »

Unfortunately I cannot (and don't want)  see "dna-forums" because I was banned.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 04:14:44 AM »

Another possible Italian R-L277+ is Ionta (YXQA3), who has only 12 markers tested at FTDNA. He is intermediate between D'Aurora (and the others) and Manno, having the rare DYS391=12. He came from San Cosmo e Damiano (San Cosmo Albanese), where lives an Arberesh community, but his surname is Italian.

If Wayne agrees, he could open his project to him (and others) and eventually ask for subscriptions.

P.S. Another guy could be Poplin (CA8Y2).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:46:21 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2010, 04:51:55 AM »

I don't know how to explain it better so it can be understood:  L150 occurs in a segment of DNA in which the sequence on the Y is very similar to another sequence elsewhere in the genome.  As a result, sometimes the L150 result is a clean result from the Y and and sometimes it isn't.

Testing the same person over and over usually produces the same result, even when that result is "wrong".

If this is the problem, why they, instead of running the whole genome, don't isolate the Y and run it. There wouldn't be any interference. Is it too expensive?
At EthnoAncestry, as they weren't able to test my S136, apparently impossible,  they used an indirect way: testing STRs of the region.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:54:23 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 06:04:25 AM »


If Wayne agrees, he could open his project to him (and others) and eventually ask for subscriptions.


Right now I don't have the time to create a new project in support of investigating L277.  If a solid set of primers for L277 are established then the issue can be revisited.
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 06:12:11 AM »

For reference purposes here is a section from Tim Janzen's  R1b origins posting on Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:35 PM .



R-L23:  6377 years (YHRD version)

6012 years (new version)

4668 years (old version)

(using 16 R-L23+ L51- and 20 R-L23+ L51+ haplotypes)

I also randomly deleted some of the L23+ haplotypes and I found that the TMRCA estimate rose to about 7000 years when including only 10-15 L23+ haplotypes.

 

R-L51:  6177 years (YHRD version)

4461 years (new version)

4517 years (old version)

(using 7 R-L51+ L11- and 13 R-L51+ L11+ haplotypes)

I also randomly deleted some of the L23+ haplotypes and I found that the TMRCA estimate rose to about 6500 years when including only 7 L11+ haplotypes.
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2010, 07:43:47 AM »

Right now I don't have the time to create a new project in support of investigating L277.  If a solid set of primers for L277 are established then the issue can be revisited.
Once we get the L277 primers up and running at FTDNA, the ht35 project will have subgroup for L277+ folks.  We can do it already, I think.
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