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OConnor
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« on: July 29, 2010, 09:04:31 PM »

Experts from three institutions have pooled their skills in order to map Ötzi’s entire genetic make-up: Albert Zink, Head of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the iceman, together with Carsten Pusch, from the Institute of Human Genetics at the University of Tübingen and Andreas Keller from the bio-technological firm “febit” in Heidelberg. Together they have reached a historic moment in the study of the 5,000 year old mummy.

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=81986&CultureCode=en
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2010, 09:18:54 PM »

Experts from three institutions have pooled their skills in order to map Ötzi’s entire genetic make-up: Albert Zink, Head of the EURAC Institute for Mummies and the iceman, together with Carsten Pusch, from the Institute of Human Genetics at the University of Tübingen and Andreas Keller from the bio-technological firm “febit” in Heidelberg. Together they have reached a historic moment in the study of the 5,000 year old mummy.

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=81986&CultureCode=en

Wow! That article says they were "able to decode Ötzi’s DNA in its entirety"!

So, what will his y haplogroup be?

I hope we find out sometime within our lifetimes. The article says "next year", on the 20th anniversary of Ötzi's discovery.

Too long to wait!

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OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2010, 09:28:08 PM »

They should do the Archer too. That would also be worth the wait!

Would R1b1b2a1 be too far off in current estimated time-line?
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2010, 09:30:33 PM »

They should do the Archer too. That would also be worth the wait!


Man, I wish they would!
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OConnor
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 09:36:07 PM »

oh that reminds me..there was a new earth works discovered between Avebury and Stonehenge.

Click on the interactive Next button
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/interactive/2010/jul/27/marden-henge-stonehenge
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2010, 01:56:35 AM »

To Rich: I wrote to you just yesterday on this. At last! It was clear that it ought only to will. Hope that doesn't happen what happened with Tutankhamun. I have demonstrated, by the Pichler's paper, that Rhaetians were the most ancient Italians and hope that Germans don't want to find that Oetzi (already the name is out of place) was a German, who probably in that time lived in South Sweden.
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 08:30:03 AM »

To Rich: I wrote to you just yesterday on this. At last! It was clear that it ought only to will. Hope that doesn't happen what happened with Tutankhamun. I have demonstrated, by the Pichler's paper, that Rhaetians were the most ancient Italians and hope that Germans don't want to find that Oetzi (already the name is out of place) was a German, who probably in that time lived in South Sweden.

Gioiello,

While I am excited about Ötzi's genome, and especially his y haplogroup, I don't think a single result like this is going to revolutionize what we know about prehistoric Europe, unless Ötzi turns out to belong to y haplogroup F or something like that. But that would probably only raise more questions than provide answers, which I guess is what Ötzi's results are going to do in any case.
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 11:29:38 AM »

Cutting words those of Francesco on "Rootsweb":  "No worries Rich: unlike their Egyptian
counterparts, the Italian scientists and authorities are all bend to demonstrate that
Italians aren't in fact Italian. So "unusual" results would be more than welcome, I suppose".
Also if I don't hear him from many time, he hasn't been in vain at my school.

But Italians who feel Italians there are yet some: me (and many friends of mine).
We will be on guard.

Also about results I am not so pessimist like you. Till yesterday you doubted that the
exam could be done, and it was already ahead. The time they need before publishing the results
are due to the difficulty to read and to assemble the millions of strings, but they will do
a good work.

But we already know the complete mitochondrial of Oetzi, done by Ermini, and he is a K1o (oe),
then one of the many bushes of K from which survive only K1a (mine), K1b and K1c. This
is very important for me, because K was certainly 5300 YBP in North Italy and around the Alps.
My K1a1b1, with 9932A, is certainly Italian and only Italian, and we would know where
has formed the Jewish-daughter K1a1b1a.
About the Y I think it will be very interesting too. Perhaps it could be a bush of some
haplogroup, a dead line like K1o. Anyway it will give us useful informations. If it will be
with a few variance respect the present haplogroups, it will be able to confirm my theory
of the mutations around the modal.
But imagine which defeat if it will be an haplogroup that many are thinking one or two thousands of years old.
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 12:23:15 PM »

My wife is K1a, too. We don't know beyond that simple designation, but her ancestry is Eastern European, with some Jewish.
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 01:07:02 PM »

Also from HVRI,II,III we can understand something. Have you these mutations? If she is K1a1b1a, this is the Jewish haplogroup par excellence: someone thinks it "Jewish", someone thinks it is an introgression from some Eastern European people (someone has thought also to Gypsys). Anyway there are many K1a  tipical
of Eastern Europe and of the Balkans. My thinking is that they reached East Europe from Western Europe (I think from Italy and the Alpine Region), and this is the thinking also of Ian Logan, one of the best expert of this haplogroup.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 03:31:54 PM »

My wife is K1a, too. We don't know beyond that simple designation, but her ancestry is Eastern European, with some Jewish.
My maternal ancestry is Southern Italian, and I belong to HV4. This clade of HV is found in Eastern Europe as well.

So Otzi belongs to Haplogroup K? Was is its age? I believe HV4 is dated as Neolithic by Malyarchuk in his study of Eastern and Western Slavs.
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2010, 04:05:47 PM »

Which age? Of Oetzi  or of K? Oetzi is 5300  years old. K is 31400, K1 26700, K1a 20500, K1b 25000, K1c 19500, K2 25700, K2a 14100 (AJHG, volume 84).
Then Oetzi was one of the bushes of K1 yet alive 5300 years ago and now extinct.

The Italian K1a1b1 (9932A) has probably not least than 5000 years for this mutation, but I have a personal mutation in the coding region (11204C) and other mutations has the other documented Italian cluster, then our haplogrup can exist from 10/15000 years.
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2010, 04:09:40 PM »

About your HV4 I demonstrated in another thread that it has nothing linked with Egypt and Eastern Europe, then it could be Italian from many thousands of years.
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2010, 04:19:15 PM »

About your HV4 I demonstrated in another thread that it has nothing linked with Egypt and Eastern Europe, than it could be Italian from many thousands of years.

I think HV4 came from the East. I read a peer-reviewed study that linked Southern Italians who belonged to HV to Crete and the Aegean.

Anyway, isn't Haplogroup K strong around the Alps, or?
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 05:48:41 PM »

oh that reminds me..there was a new earth works discovered between Avebury and Stonehenge.

Click on the interactive Next button
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/interactive/2010/jul/27/marden-henge-stonehenge

Here is a great little piece on stonehenge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlf5ucFanpY
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2010, 10:53:52 AM »

I think HV4 came from the East. I read a peer-reviewed study that linked Southern Italians who belonged to HV to Crete and the Aegean.
Anyway, isn't Haplogroup K strong around the Alps, or?

Dear Downing (without street),
I don't understand why many loves exotic and not their own. Your mtDNA is HV4a.
These are the two samples of Phylotree. One is Italian
(31. Gasparre1  A28.JS EF660939(Italy) HV4 T4768C   T7094C   T8639C   C8794T   C12399T 
A13527G  C13680T A15442G  C16221T),
the other is from Egypt
(61. Kujanova A25.JS EU935457(Egypt) HV
T236C    T7094C   G7805A   G8251A   G9055A   A11671G  G16129A  C16221T).

Which is the closest to you (16221T 146C 263G 309.1C 315.1C)? Of course you should
have an FGS, but also at glance you can see that probably also your coding region will
be closer to the Italian one than to the Egyptian: you haven't T236C nor G16129A.
Probably between you and this Egyptian there are many tens of thousands of years of separation.
 

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2010, 11:02:19 AM »

I think HV4 came from the East. I read a peer-reviewed study that linked Southern Italians who belonged to HV to Crete and the Aegean.
Anyway, isn't Haplogroup K strong around the Alps, or?

Dear Downing (without street),
I don't understand why many loves exotic and not their own. Your mtDNA is HV4a.
These are the two samples of Phylotree. One is Italian
(31. Gasparre1  A28.JS EF660939(Italy) HV4 T4768C   T7094C   T8639C   C8794T   C12399T 
A13527G  C13680T A15442G  C16221T),
the other is from Egypt
(61. Kujanova A25.JS EU935457(Egypt) HV
T236C    T7094C   G7805A   G8251A   G9055A   A11671G  G16129A  C16221T).

Which is the closest to you (16221T 146C 263G 309.1C 315.1C)? Of course you should
have an FGS, but also at glance you can see that probably also your coding region will
be closer to the Italian one than to the Egyptian: you haven't T236C nor G16129A.
Probably between you and this Egyptian there are many tens of thousands of years of separation.
 



Mac,

What is the designation for HV4a? I was not assigned this by FTDNA's nomenclature. I am closer to both the Egyptian and Italian samples, but it is obvious the DNA came from somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean or Near East.

I don't know how long ago though, but I am sure the mutation did not surface in Italy if that is what you are saying.
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2010, 12:33:31 PM »

To say which is closer to you you should have an FGS. I bet with you that your FGS will be very close to the Italian one and very distant from the Egyptian.

That your haplotype is HV4a is said by Phylotree by the mutation of 16221T.
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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2010, 12:56:54 PM »

Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Middle East, including Iran, Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, mainly in the Sudanese Arabs  who also have a very high frequency of y-chromosome haplogroup J.

Much earlier, around 30,000 years ago, some members of HV moved north across the Caucasus Mountains and west across Anatolia, their lineages being carried into Europe for the first time by the Cro-Magnon. Their arrival was the second group(s) of anatomically modern humans in Europe (the first being mtDNA haplogroup U5). These continued migrations sounded the end of the era of the Neandertals, a hominid species that inhabited Europe and parts of western Asia from about 230,000 to 29,000 years ago. Better communication skills, weapons, and resourcefulness probably enabled them to outcompete Neandertals for scarce resources. Importantly, some descendants of HV had already broken off and formed their own group, haplogroup H, and continued the push into Western Europe.

A 2003 study was published reporting on the mtDNA sequencing of the bones of two 24,000-year-old anatomically modern humans of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy. The study showed one was of either haplogroup HV or R0.
(from Wikipedia)
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2010, 01:01:56 PM »

To say which is closer to you you should have an FGS. I bet with you that your FGS will be very close to the Italian one and very distant from the Egyptian.

That your haplotype is HV4a is said by Phylotree by the mutation of 16221T.

I have completed the FGS and am HV4. I also have the 16221T mutation, but FTDNA has not classified me as HV4a. What am I?
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2010, 01:09:03 PM »


A 2003 study was published reporting on the mtDNA sequencing of the bones of two 24,000-year-old anatomically modern humans of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy. The study showed one was of either haplogroup HV or R0.
(from Wikipedia)
Malyarchuk calculated the age of HV4 in Russia to be much younger than that though. And I thought it was established the skeleton belonged to R0?

I could be wrong about the latter statement though. Yet, I can entertain the possibility that HV4 is in Italy much earlier than the Hellenistic settlers. But it could have come from the Balkans or Anatolia.

Anyway, so you think Otzi lived in the Alps his whole life?
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2010, 02:05:22 PM »

Oetzi was 100% Italian, demonstrated by his tools, linked to the Remedello culture, and, like his mtDNA (K1 from Alpine Region), I think that his Y will astonish everybody.

The latest paper of Malyarchuk has demonstrated that many mtDNA present now in Russia came from Western Europe after the LGM: read it.

Only your prejudices can explain your positions: but truth is truth and at last it will overcome.
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2010, 02:07:08 PM »

If you have the FGS's results, show them!
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 09:34:38 PM »

According to this link http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/List_of_DNA_tested_mummies
H was in Italy 28,000 years ago.

I wondered about the general Alps area.
Before the Roman empire would the Alps have been considered part of Italy?



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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2010, 10:27:28 PM »

According to this link http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/List_of_DNA_tested_mummies
H was in Italy 28,000 years ago.

I wondered about the general Alps area.
Before the Roman empire would the Alps have been considered part of Italy?





Right, I'm not denying that. But HV4 has only been found in Southern Italy so far: Tagliarini (Sicily) and myself (Campania). Other than that, it is in Poland, Russia, Northern Germany, Egypt, and I remember an Assyrian posting his HV4 results not too long ago.
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