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Author Topic: why has WTY failed to find a really major L21-splitting SNP?  (Read 1341 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: July 24, 2010, 08:11:16 PM »

By which I do not mean local historic period SNPs.  Why has not SNP been found in the long period between L21 and the historic period ones?  That by the most common estimates is a period of say 2500 years or more.  I find that strange.  I find it odd that there was a rash of SNPs (P310-P312-U105-U152-L21) in a few centuries perhaps 4-5000 years ago then nothing much until less than 2000 years ago.  There may be reasons but it seems odd to me.  Is there something in the WTY testing processes?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 08:36:10 PM »

By which I do not mean local historic period SNPs.  Why has not SNP been found in the long period between L21 and the historic period ones?  That by the most common estimates is a period of say 2500 years or more.  I find that strange.  I find it odd that there was a rash of SNPs (P310-P312-U105-U152-L21) in a few centuries perhaps 4-5000 years ago then nothing much until less than 2000 years ago.  There may be reasons but it seems odd to me.  Is there something in the WTY testing processes?

Yes, I believe it is the testing process used in the WTY test, which only looked at a very small portion of the Y chromosome. Presumably many defining SNPs are in that portion that wasn't examined. The WTY test was also a near complete failure in identifying new SNPs below P312. I think the only thing of note they found was L176.2, and they missed the importance of that, which was only noticed by Vince T. The WTY test also did not test for S182(L238), since determined by EA to be connected with Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 08:01:18 AM »

By which I do not mean local historic period SNPs.  Why has not SNP been found in the long period between L21 and the historic period ones?  That by the most common estimates is a period of say 2500 years or more.  I find that strange.  I find it odd that there was a rash of SNPs (P310-P312-U105-U152-L21) in a few centuries perhaps 4-5000 years ago then nothing much until less than 2000 years ago.  There may be reasons but it seems odd to me.  Is there something in the WTY testing processes?

Yes, I believe it is the testing process used in the WTY test, which only looked at a very small portion of the Y chromosome. Presumably many defining SNPs are in that portion that wasn't examined. The WTY test was also a near complete failure in identifying new SNPs below P312. I think the only thing of note they found was L176.2, and they missed the importance of that, which was only noticed by Vince T. The WTY test also did not test for S182(L238), since determined by EA to be connected with Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster.

Have got to admit overall i am disappointed by WTY.  I thought there is a theory that SNPs occur at regular intervals but as far as I can see there is nothing between L21 and the M222 type ones.  By the usual estimates that is a period of nearly 2500 years.

The L21 SNP up and downstream sequence:

M269-Various ht35 markers-P310-P312-L21-zilch for 2500 years-M222 etc.

That just does not look right to me and discovering new historic/fairly late isles-centred SNPs does not really address this strange gap after L21.  There is a solid sequence from M269 to L21 then nothing at all for over 2000 years.  The gap is exactly where an L21-splitting SNP is most needed.  There is either some problem or something weird demographically going on.  

One guess and its a pure shot in the dark is is it possible that although we are getting MRCA dates of about 4000+ years ago for L21, is it possible that this is being skewed by a few outliers and in fact the vast bulk of isles L21* is much closer related than the MRCA date suggests.  Combine this with the total dominance of the isles in the database and perhaps isles L21 is a small subset of continental L21.  Maybe that is why isles L21 clusters but French does not.  I am not mathematical so this could be nonsense.  



 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 08:07:13 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 11:16:22 AM »

By which I do not mean local historic period SNPs.  Why has not SNP been found in the long period between L21 and the historic period ones?  That by the most common estimates is a period of say 2500 years or more.  I find that strange.  I find it odd that there was a rash of SNPs (P310-P312-U105-U152-L21) in a few centuries perhaps 4-5000 years ago then nothing much until less than 2000 years ago.  There may be reasons but it seems odd to me.  Is there something in the WTY testing processes?

Yes, I believe it is the testing process used in the WTY test, which only looked at a very small portion of the Y chromosome. Presumably many defining SNPs are in that portion that wasn't examined. The WTY test was also a near complete failure in identifying new SNPs below P312. I think the only thing of note they found was L176.2, and they missed the importance of that, which was only noticed by Vince T. The WTY test also did not test for S182(L238), since determined by EA to be connected with Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster.
Does anyone have a list of Ysearch ID's for people who are S182+(L238+)?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 03:32:05 PM »


Does anyone have a list of Ysearch ID's for people who are S182+(L238+)?

The only two I am aware of are:

Eriksson Sweden 29TRV
Smith England NMXWE

Eriksson is an exact match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster on all off-modals markers. Smith does so except for DYS441, for which he hasn't been tested. Both are members of the P312 project. There are others who also match the cluster, but as far as I know, they haven't tested for the new SNP.

I have contacted EA to see if they have had any other positive results, and am awaiting a reply.
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OConnor
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 06:45:04 AM »

I think R-L159.2 was found in the WTY also.
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 12:48:27 PM »


Does anyone have a list of Ysearch ID's for people who are S182+(L238+)?
The only two I am aware of are:
Eriksson Sweden 29TRV
Smith England NMXWE
Eriksson is an exact match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster on all off-modals markers. Smith does so except for DYS441, for which he hasn't been tested. Both are members of the P312 project. There are others who also match the cluster, but as far as I know, they haven't tested for the new SNP.

I have contacted EA to see if they have had any other positive results, and am awaiting a reply.
Thanks.  I found Eriksson / Larsson.

I can't find Smith NMXWE.  Please recheck the Ysearch ID.  There is an N18967 Smith but he is from Georgia, USA.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 02:22:29 PM »

could the problem simply be that we have picked a few big isles clusters and that the major L21-splitting SNPs actually lie among the large amount of L21 that do not fall into large cluster or even singletons.  It appears in France from what I am told that these people are the norm there.  In some ways by testing historic period clusters for SNPs all we are getting is a better understanding of a handful of prolific people who lived in that period rather than a knowledge of L21 in general.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 02:36:34 PM »

What exactly is the method of detecting new SNPs in WTY.  Do they compare a person from a cluster with others who have been tested and simply look for differences.

I also head that they are only looking in certain areas of the Y.  Is what they are doing leading to only historical period or fairly late SNPs being picked up.  I do wonder, given this is genealogy driven, if they have a technique that focusses on looking for recent SNPs because they are of more interest to people looking into their genealogy.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 09:14:21 PM »


Does anyone have a list of Ysearch ID's for people who are S182+(L238+)?
The only two I am aware of are:
Eriksson Sweden 29TRV
Smith England NMXWE
Eriksson is an exact match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster on all off-modals markers. Smith does so except for DYS441, for which he hasn't been tested. Both are members of the P312 project. There are others who also match the cluster, but as far as I know, they haven't tested for the new SNP.

I have contacted EA to see if they have had any other positive results, and am awaiting a reply.
Thanks.  I found Eriksson / Larsson.

I can't find Smith NMXWE.  Please recheck the Ysearch ID.  There is an N18967 Smith but he is from Georgia, USA.


Sorry for the typo. Smith is NXMWE, FTDNA kit 131613.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 09:24:37 PM »

I received an email today from Kristine Saxe that they have discovered two SNPs in the Hopkins (Irish-Connaught) family. L302 and L319. She seemed pretty excited about the whole thing...
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