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Jean M
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« on: July 17, 2010, 06:04:29 AM »

Here's what I added to the Peopling of Europe: Beaker Folk to Celts and Italics since laying hands on Celtic from the West :

The influence of La Tène styles spread quite widely across Gaul, Britain and further afield. Trade, gifts and emulation can account for some of the spread. However history records a series of Celtic migrations between 400 and 200 BC. Celts moved into Northeastern Italy around 400 BC. Since Iron Age Celts were naturally genetically similar to their ancestors, it may prove difficult to distinguish these later waves from earlier ones into Britain and Iberia purely by DNA. However the R1b-U152 haplogroup is concentrated around the Alps, so where it appears in Britain, Greece and Iberia, it may partly reflect La Tène movements.

Though Ireland overall is not swamped with La Tène material, a concentration of it has been found in the northeast of the country starting from c. 300 BC. It is in this same area that the earliest Irish records mention people called Cruithin or Cruithni, apparently meaning British. There has been much debate over their origins, but there is a genetic clue that the La Tène style arrived with them. Y-DNA haplogroup I2b1a (M284) is almost exclusively British and seems to have arisen there among the Celts. It is rare in Ireland, but there is a concentration of it in North-Eastern Ireland. This haplogroup is shared by men of several surnames which are Gaelic in origin, and so cannot reflect gene flow from Britain in modern times. McEvoy and Bradley date its most recent common ancestor in Ireland to about 300 BC. I2b1a appears in McGuinness and McCartan men, who have a common ancestor in Eochaidh, King of the Ulaidh (d.c. 552 AD), who was of the Cruithin. If the Cruithin arrived in 300 BC speaking Brittonic, no trace of it survived to be recorded. The Ulaidh came under heavy pressure from southern tribes, including the Uí Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages. A branch of the Uí Néill took over North-Western Ireland. Nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today carry Y-DNA R1b-M222. It is particularly common among those with certain surnames derived from the Uí Néill, such as O'Doherty, though not the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall and among Lowland Scots. There is even a scattering of M222 in England, France and Germany. The long and complex relationship between the peoples of Ulster and Scotland leaves us with several possible explanations, one of which is that M222 is another La Tène signature, centuries older than Niall.

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 10:18:29 AM »

... The Ulaidh came under heavy pressure from southern tribes, including the Uí Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages. A branch of the Uí Néill took over North-Western Ireland. Nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today carry Y-DNA R1b-M222. It is particularly common among those with certain surnames derived from the Uí Néill, such as O'Doherty, though not the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall and among Lowland Scots. There is even a scattering of M222 in England, France and Germany. The long and complex relationship between the peoples of Ulster and Scotland leaves us with several possible explanations, one of which is that M222 is another La Tène signature, centuries older than Niall.
Very interesting.  What are the primary points supporting your proposal on M222 being La Tène?

A correlation with I2b1a (M284)?

The distribution of M222 which is concentrated in northeast Ireland but scattered in other places, including Germany, where the La Tène were known to be?

An apparent association with  Uí Néill? Were they known to have La Tène artifacts?  The implication is Uí Néill was a southern tribe that attacked the Ulaidh (men of Ulster).  If so why does that link them La Tène? Do you mean southern Ireland or are you talking about south into the continent? Wasn't Uí Néill Gaelic speaking?  If so, is that a contradiction with a Brittonic speaking La Tène "Cruithe"?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 10:19:01 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 01:30:42 PM »

It is all a big puzzle.

As you will know M222 was trumpeted in 2006 as the marker of the descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. As I was adding the new idea from McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a (from the new volume Celtic from the West), I thought I would slip in the Ui Neill story while I was at it.

Scarcely had I done that when I had an email by sheer coincidence from someone who has published on a Scottish M222 family. That led me to the R-M222 Haplogroup Project and the informative web-site of its Group Co-Administrator:  John D. McLaughlin. I began to feel very uneasy. All this Lowland Scots M222 does not fit the picture of the line of Niall.

And yet it is very clear that plenty of people whose ancestors claimed descent from Niall are indeed M222. They were not considered Cruithin. They were Gaelic speakers. (Probably all the La Tene arrivals had turned into Gaelic-speakers by the time we have any records anyway.) However they were living in that part of Ireland that had La Tene material. So were they really 100% Gaelic lads who were bent on pushing the Cruithin into the sea? Or is the story a bit more complex? Why is Niall's mother (in legend) supposed to be British?         


 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:32:55 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 04:59:14 PM »

M222 is linked with the north west but la tene is linked to the north east.  There is in my opnion no correlation and even something of a negative correlation between them.  There may be somethng to the idea of a link between la tene and cruithin may be worth furher consideration.  However I do not think the ui neill or connachta were an ethnic group.  It seems most likely to me they were a military or dynastic lineage rather than a people as such. I do not think they were anything to do with the spread of Gaelic in ireland. I suppose the only clue about origin would be where it is found and where pre m222 groups are found. Previous posts by others seem to suggest that both have been noted together in SW Scotland but not in nw Ireland. This is where the damnoni tribe were located. It is interesting that the ulster tales mention fighing the fir domnain who were associated with nw Connaught. I wonder if the ui neill and connachta were somehow derived from them. This is not what the genealogies say but frankly the pre400ad part of the various genealogies cannot remotely be trusted. One thng I think everyone needs to drop is the idea that there were waves, one of which was 'the Gaels' an ethnic term or a term for a distinct wave of invaders like O'Rahilly wrote.  Even the name Gael is not a Gaelic word! It's a borrowing fom British Celtic around the 5th centuryAD and was probably originally an insulting term meaning wild man of the woods or simlar that the welsh used for he Irish raiders who were attacking them. Perhaps the term was carried to Ireland by welsh monks.
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Heber
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 05:33:37 PM »

Jean,

McEvoy and Bradley date the ancestor of M222 to 1,700 bpe and located in  NW Ireland.  "The unique corpus of Irish genealogical records allow the tracing of his putative decendants to the 11th and 12th centuries where they in turn became the founding fathers of many modern Irish surnames."  Frequency of M222 in Donegal (NW Ireland) reach 20%.
M222 corresponds closely to the historic character Niall Noigiallach (Niall of the Nine Hostages) (378-405), founder of the Ui'Neill dynasty, which lasted from the 5thC-15thC for over 1,000 years, until The Flight of the Earls in 1607. He also established the Dal Riada in Western Scotland.
McEvoy and Bradley specifically identify haplogroup Iic as being seperate and associated with NE Ireland and dating to 2,600 bpe. It is an interesting theory and merits further research.
Dr. Anatole Klyosov has estimated the age of M222 (NW Irish) as 1450±160 ybp.




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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


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Jean M
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 06:39:49 PM »

@Heber - Yes  I've read the Moore et al (2006) paper. I cite it. It all seemed convincing and I went along with it, until my attention was drawn to all the Lowland Scots M222. That is in the wrong place to be Dál Riata, even if we had any evidence that descendants of Niall had anything to do with Dál Riata, which we haven't, as far as I know. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 06:53:46 PM »

@ Alan - Yes I like McEvoy and Bradley's notion about I2b1a. It seems pretty solid.

M222 on the other hand is more of a puzzle. I'm not suggesting that M222 people spread Gaelic. Where did you get that idea? In my view Gaelic developed in Ireland from the early form of Celtic that arrived with the Bell Beaker people.

La Tene material is found all over Northern Ireland. There is a concentration of high-quality stuff in the NE. See distribution of beehive quernstones.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 06:56:15 PM »

If I2b1a (M284) is hardly found at all outside the British Isles, perhaps it represents part, at least, of the surviving descendants of the Mesolithic population. But how are we to connect a small, exclusively British clade with La Tene? Is the idea that U152 spread La Tene culture to Britain, where I2b1a Cruithin took it up and then spread it to Ireland?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2010, 08:09:15 PM »

I think it's vital to remember that all this tells us is one I clade guy had got himself top of the local pile in the early Christian period. It probably does not tell us much more about the general populations.  I think most of the Irish were a mix of R1b and a minority of I clade people. From modern populations it would seem likely that R1b dominated among the Irish, Britons and Picts.  Occasionally an I guy could form an important dynasty in the constant struggles. I do wish someone would produce a summary of what we know about Irish I people and their distribution, variance etc. I posted asking about Irish I a couple of times on rootsweb but it was shocking how little was known. after all, early studies did indicate that the native Irish in ulster and Leinster had a significant nonR1b populations and these were mostly I people. I also got the impression that I clades cropped up among the more remote Irish clans in the SW of Ireland like the driscolls.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2010, 08:41:09 PM »

 

[/quote]
I really meant that the la tene artefacts and cruithin may be linked. I think this may present a scenaro where the name cruithn was linked to the people who used the la tene material in Ireland. Indeed I have often wondered if the 'designs' in the meaning of cruithin and pretani does not refer to the art designs. The name links to the name of Britain but I am not totally convinced that it or the la tene material has to mean a Britain to Ireland migration but could just mean a shared continental intrusion. The name was first applied in a way that meant both islands were called the islands of the pretani although it was later confined to Britain only. It could be that it all came via Britain but maybe not.  The material has been claimed to have both direct Gaulish and British influences. The term cruithin has been used in all sort of ways and needs handled with care. it has been puzzled by many for a long time but all we know is:
it was suddenly applied to both islands in the 4th centuryBC
it later became restricted to Britain where it replaced the older term Albion but ireland reverted to forms based on the earlier Ierne.   
it later still in the dark ages became limited to unromanised Britons (Picts) and in a Gaelic form to some groups scattered around Ireland but predominanly in east and north ulster.
Overall the impressioN is its meaning and geography has been very fluid and changeable


It seems to be a fluid term

One problem in dabbling in all of this is we only know the position of the cruithin from the 7th century ad.  So comparing this with la tene material of say 300BC to 100AD is at worst illogical and at best involves a huge leap of faith and unwarrented trust in the pre400AD parts of Irish history. Note that the tribal setup in Irish myths that are set around 0AD do not seem to correlate with Ptolemy and there is a strong feeling that much later political realities of the Early Chistian period were back projected and then distorted to suit the claims of the tribes the monasteries writing them down belonged to.  
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Jean M
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 06:20:55 AM »

If I2b1a (M284) is hardly found at all outside the British Isles, perhaps it represents part, at least, of the surviving descendants of the Mesolithic population.

Its ancestor I2b1 is found in continental Europe and dated c. 2650 BC by K. Nordtvedt. He dated I2b1a in England at c.1870 BC. A subclade found in Scotland (I2b1a1) he dated to c. 270 AD.

I have revised that section to make matters clearer:  

Quote
Ireland overall is not swamped with La Tène material. The Iron Age Irish were struggling to survive. The wetter climate across Europe from about 700 BC hit the island badly, putting pressure on resources. Warfare was endemic. Yet starting from c. 300 BC, there is a concentration of La Tène finds in the northeast of the country, probably initially arriving from northern Britain.[1] It is in this same area that the earliest Irish records mention people called Cruithin or Cruithni, apparently meaning British. [2] There has been much debate over their origins, but there is a genetic clue that the La Tène style arrived with them. Y-DNA haplogroup I2b1a (M284) is almost exclusively British and seems to have arisen there among the Celts about 1870 BC. It is rare in Ireland, but there is a concentration of it in North-Eastern Ireland. This haplogroup is shared by men of several surnames which are Gaelic in origin, and so cannot reflect gene flow from Britain in modern times. McEvoy and Bradley date its most recent common ancestor in Ireland to about 300 BC. I2b1a appears in McGuinness and McCartan men, [3] who have a common ancestor in Eochaidh, King of the Ulaidh (d.c. 552 AD), who was of the Cruithin.[4]

If the Cruithin arrived in 300 BC speaking Brittonic, no trace of it survived to be recorded. The Ulaidh came under heavy pressure from the Uí Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages. A branch of the Uí Néill took over North-Western Ireland. Nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today carry Y-DNA R1b-M222. It is particularly common among those with certain surnames derived from the Uí Néill, such as O'Doherty, though not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall. So M222 was initially labelled as the lineage of Niall, but its appearance among Lowland Scots (rather than in Gaelic Argyll) suggests that it is another La Tène signature, centuries older than Niall.[5]


  • 1. C.S.M. Turney et al., Holocene climatic change and past Irish societal response, Journal of Archaeological Science, vol. 33, no. 1 (January 2006), pp. 34-38; B. Raftery, Pagan Celtic Ireland: The Enigma of the Irish Iron Age, 2nd edn. (1997); T.W. Moody et al., (eds.), A New History of Ireland: Prehistoric and early Ireland (2005), pp. 140-7.
  • 2. J. T. Koch, Celtic Culture: a historical encyclopedia (2006), pp. 505-6.
  • 3. B.P. McEvoy and D.G. Bradley, Irish Genetics and Celts, Celtic from the West (2010), p.117. They identify this haplogroup by its old name I1c. Its ancestor I2b1 is found in continental Europe and dated c. 2650 BC by K. Nordtvedt. He dated I2b1a in England at c.1870 BC. A subclade found in Scotland (I2b1a1) he dated to c. 270 AD: see http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/.
  • 4. C. Ó Duibhín, The Irish Language in County Down, chap. 17 in Lindsay  Proudfoot (ed.), Down: History and Society (Dublin 1997); M.B.O. Mainnin, Place-Names of Northern Ireland, vol. 3: County Down III, The Mournes (1993), pp. xx, 67.
  • 5. L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. 2 (1 February 2006), pp. 334-338; E.B. O’Neill and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26; http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/; J.D. McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm
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Jean M
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 07:03:11 AM »

Note that the tribal setup in Irish myths that are set around 0AD do not seem to correlate with Ptolemy and there is a strong feeling that much later political realities of the Early Chistian period were back projected and then distorted to suit the claims of the tribes the monasteries writing them down belonged to.  

I'm bearing that in mind, believe me. A whole lot of M222 lineages may have concocted links to Niall. Or Niall's own lineage may have been adjusted to fit what people later thought it should be.  His myth is typical of many found in Indo-European societies which justify the claims of someone who was probably in reality a usurper. The exposed child who miraculously survives, aided by animals/birds, and returns to remove oppressors and claim his rightful throne. 
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OConnor
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 08:25:44 AM »

When it came time to pick surnames would you pick Slobo?
or fashion your family with Niall. A legendary King ?


I wonder if M222 could have come from Scotland to Ireland as Gallowglass before many people had surnames.

The first record of gallowglass service under the Irish was in 1259,
when Aedh Ó Conchobair, King of Connacht, received a dowry of 160 Scottish warriors from the daughter of the King of the Hebrides. They were organised into groups known as a "Corrughadh", which consisted of about 100 men. In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population. By 1512, there were reported to be fifty-nine groups throughout the country under the control of the Irish nobility. Though initially they were mercenaries, over time they settled and their ranks became filled with native Irish men.
http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=gallowglass&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA

« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:12:30 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jean M
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 09:02:36 AM »

I wonder if M222 could have come from Scotland to Ireland as Gallowglass before many people had surnames.

That seems much too late a date. Remember that 20% of the tested men in Donegal today carry Y-DNA R1b-M222. That figure is suspiciously high even for descent from Niall. The McEvoy team commented that he was amazingly prolific! The M222 project has concluded the M222 must be older than Niall anyway, for it is found among those families claiming descent from Niall's brothers. Yet it is not found among southern Ui Neill.

Picture:

1) a bunch of M222 arriving c. 300 BC and settling somewhere in the NW, and gradually mixing with local people to spread over the NW.  

2) a chieftan from somewhere south of the La Tene area takes over control  of the NW c. 400 AD or a bit later. He brings his coterie of followers with him, but does not wipe out the local people. So what with the earlier mixing and mingling, and this later influx of L21*, we end up with about  20% M222.

3) Much later, people start concocting pedigrees, with all the families affiliated to Ui Neill claiming descent from Niall. Some are M222. Some are not. And the O'Neills themselves are mainly not.  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 05:22:00 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 03:23:49 PM »

What sort of I-M284 frequency is there in Ireland?

Any idea?

How about in the British Isles as a whole?

Did Ken Nordtvedt calculate an age for the I-M223 in the British Isles? Is it younger than that on the continent? I am wondering if some kind of I still extant in the British Isles represents descent from the Mesolithic population. I-M284 and its ancestor I-M223 might not be old enough to be considered Mesolithic, but they could descend from an I-P214 ancestor already in the British Isles since the Mesolithic. I-M223 could have spread to NW Europe from the Isles.
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Jean M
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2010, 06:17:24 PM »

What sort of I-M284 frequency is there in Ireland?

I quote McEvoy and Bradley: "untypical of Ireland but relatively common in Continental Europe". They ignore that fact that it appears in Britain. This looks like a mix-up between I-M284 and its parent. The paper was written two years ago.  

Quote
I-M223 could have spread to NW Europe from the Isles.

Ken does not provide a date for I-M223 in  England. His oldest date for I-M223 is for the cluster he calls Roots i.e. I2b1*, which is 4650 y.a. = 2650 BC. I feel sure that he would be thrilled to obtain a Mesolithic date for any haplogroup I lineage, but this prize eludes him.  See http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 06:20:08 PM by Jean M » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 08:34:34 AM »


Quote
. A branch of the Uí Néill took over North-Western Ireland. Nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today carry Y-DNA R1b-M222. It is particularly common among those with certain surnames derived from the Uí Néill, such as O'Doherty, though not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall. So M222 was initially labelled as the lineage of Niall, but its appearance among Lowland Scots (rather than in Gaelic Argyll) suggests that it is another La Tène signature, centuries older than Niall.[5]

Jean,
Thank you for the interesting references. I look forward to reading your revised paper.
The Bradley and McEvoy paper in note 5 discusses the southern Eoghanacht (Munster), who are quiet distinct from the Southern O Neill (Meath).
The only potential founder ancestor of Niall and his brothers, the Connachta, I can think of, is their common ancestor Conn Cétchathach.
"Conn Cétchathach ("of the Hundred Battles", son of Fedlimid Rechtmar, was, according to medieval Irish legend and historical tradition, a High King of Ireland, and the ancestor of the Connachta, and, through his descendant Niall Noígiallach, the Uí Néill dynasties, such as Clan Donald, a modern Scottish clan".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conn_of_the_Hundred_Battles

Anything before Conn (122-157) would be too far from the TMRCA of M222 proposed by Bradley and McEvoy and Dr Anatole Klyosov.

I know of no historical or mythical founders of the Cruitini.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 11:30:04 AM »

The Bradley and McEvoy paper in note 5 discusses the southern Eoghanacht (Munster), who are quiet distinct from the Southern O Neill (Meath).

My note 5 above is to Moore, Laoise T., Brian McEvoy, Eleanor Cape, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78 (February 2006), pp. 334-8

Not to Brian McEvoy and Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics, vol. 119 (March 2006), pp. 212-9.

I do not have this latter paper and would be very pleased to have a copy.  
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 02:46:57 PM »

Jean,

You can download this and related studies from the Ireland DNA Project.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~ihdp/ihdp/articles.htm

The list of surnames covered and comprehensive DNA results can be found on the FTDNA project page:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IrelandHeritage/default.aspxhttp://homepage.

There are over 3,800 samples including L21 and I2b.

Here is a breakdown of the number of R1b subclades in the Ireland yDNA Project.[28th February 2010]
Subclade      No. in project
R1b              2
R1b1b         168
R1b1b1        48
R1b1b2        1867
R1b1b2a       8
R1b1b2a1      11
R1b1b2a1a     44
R1b1b2a1a1    8
R1b1b2a1a4    23
R1b1b2a1b     85
R1b1b2a1b3    9
R1b1b2a1b4    21
R1b1b2a1b4c   8
R1b1b2a1b4c1  4
R1b1b2a1b5    180
R1b1b2a1b5b   215
Total R1b        2701
Total Ireland yDNA Project = 3552
Percentage R1b and subclades in project = 76%

Check out the Y DNA distribution map with drop down menu by sub clade.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IrelandHeritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 03:06:51 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 03:37:09 PM »

You can download this and related studies from the Ireland DNA Project.
...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IrelandHeritage/default.aspxhttp://homepage.
There are over 3,800 samples including L21 and I2b.
.....
The problem is the largest group is R1b1b2 with 1867 samples, or over half the total.  This is the large unknown... probably a lot are M222+ but probably a lot are L21* and P312*, etc.   My guess is more are L21* than anything else.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jean M
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 04:58:19 PM »

Jean,
You can download this and related studies from the Ireland DNA Project.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I thought I had looked everywhere. :) 
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 07:59:19 AM »

I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that project's data would be more valuable if those who can actually trace their y lines to Ireland were segregated from those who cannot. The latter seem to be a large percentage of the whole, and some folks in that project don't seem to belong there at all.

That is a problem in many projects.

Some of our L21+ guys join projects they have no business being in (just my opinion), and some of our guys refuse to join projects they should be in. For example, we have some British Isles guys in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project. I suspect they joined because they are still laboring under the notion that all the R1b1b2 in western Europe emerged from Iberia at the end of the last Ice Age. On the other hand, we have some Spanish guys who belong in that project but just won't join it for whatever reason. We also have some French guys who will not join the French Heritage DNA Project. It also seems to me the Y-DNA Results page of the Germany Y-DNA Project is cluttered with non-Germans.

We have attempted to solve that problem over at the Bretagne DNA Project (I co-administer that one now with the Group Admin, Ronan Dorvillers) by creating a category entitled, "No Known Y-DNA Connection to Bretagne". I guess we could have just booted the non-Bretons out, but this compromise seems satisfactory, since some of those non-Bretons have been in the project for awhile.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bretagne/default.aspx?section=yresults

Anyway, the non-Breton category allows researchers who look at the Y-DNA Results page of the Bretagne Project to focus on the genuine Breton component without having to sort through all the other stuff.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 08:11:23 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 08:33:24 AM »

I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that project's data would be more valuable if those who can actually trace their y lines to Ireland were segregated from those who cannot. The latter seem to be a large percentage of the whole, and some folks in that project don't seem to belong there at all.


Rich,

I went back and checked the DNA database, The vast majority of people listed have either a MRCA located in Ireland or an Irish surname.
The welcome note for the site states
"Despite the surge in the number of surname projects, the Ireland yDNA Project remains popular with people who want to affiliate with an Irish yDNA Project. The project has grown dramatically every year and by January 2010, it has nearly 4,000 members and continues to grow. The Ireland yDNA Project is a useful project for those who are investigating their Irish roots and who may not be sure of where in Ireland their ancestors lived. We co-administrators encourage people to use traditional genealogical methods (where possible) in conjunction with yDNA testing".
I can only assume that those not included in the above criteria do not have direct proof but suspect they have an Irish ancestor. Also it is worth remembering that Ireland has a population of 5M but a diaspora or over 70M.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 09:24:50 AM »

I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that project's data would be more valuable if those who can actually trace their y lines to Ireland were segregated from those who cannot. The latter seem to be a large percentage of the whole, and some folks in that project don't seem to belong there at all.


Rich,

I went back and checked the DNA database, The vast majority of people listed have either a MRCA located in Ireland or an Irish surname.
The welcome note for the site states
"Despite the surge in the number of surname projects, the Ireland yDNA Project remains popular with people who want to affiliate with an Irish yDNA Project. The project has grown dramatically every year and by January 2010, it has nearly 4,000 members and continues to grow. The Ireland yDNA Project is a useful project for those who are investigating their Irish roots and who may not be sure of where in Ireland their ancestors lived. We co-administrators encourage people to use traditional genealogical methods (where possible) in conjunction with yDNA testing".
I can only assume that those not included in the above criteria do not have direct proof but suspect they have an Irish ancestor. Also it is worth remembering that Ireland has a population of 5M but a diaspora or over 70M.

I'm not going to go back and count and compare, but I glanced at it fairly quickly and saw quite a few names that either aren't Irish or don't appear to be Irish and quite a few people who don't list a most distant ancestor born in Ireland.

Look at the levels of y haplogroups E1b1b, G, and J in that project. I don't know of any population studies of Ireland that show such frequencies of those haplogroups.

I think it would be helpful to have separate categories for those who cannot trace a y line to Ireland. Having everyone jumbled together like that just detracts from the usefulness of the data. But project organization depends on the purpose of the project, I guess.

The Irish diaspora may be as large as you say, but how can one be sure who is a part of it if all one needs to qualify as "Irish" is a claim?

I cannot get my y line past 1804 and West Virginia, so I'm not sticking my nose up and assuming aristocratic airs.

I just think dna projects should be of some use. Otherwise, they are more like dna social clubs or mutual admiration societies.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 09:25:24 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 02:41:12 PM »

Another problem is that some projects are dual Y and mt geographical projects, and one can join if either line hails from the area in question. However Y results from other areas are mixed in with those from the area in question, making it difficult to separate those members with the relevant Ydna. I don't know why they don't restrict their results list to those who actually hail from the geographical area in question.

Some projects seem to be very picky who they will allow to join, and one must first apply for admission before being allowed to join. Others seem to be happy to take in everything, including whatever the cat has brought in.
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