M222 La Tene signature?

[OConnor]

I don't mean to be critical, but it seems to me that project's data would be more valuable if those who can actually trace their y lines to Ireland were segregated from those who cannot. The latter seem to be a large percentage of the whole, and some folks in that project don't seem to belong there at all.

Rich,

I went back and checked the DNA database, The vast majority of people listed have either a MRCA located in Ireland or an Irish surname.
The welcome note for the site states
"Despite the surge in the number of surname projects, the Ireland yDNA Project remains popular with people who want to affiliate with an Irish yDNA Project. The project has grown dramatically every year and by January 2010, it has nearly 4,000 members and continues to grow. The Ireland yDNA Project is a useful project for those who are investigating their Irish roots and who may not be sure of where in Ireland their ancestors lived. We co-administrators encourage people to use traditional genealogical methods (where possible) in conjunction with yDNA testing".
I can only assume that those not included in the above criteria do not have direct proof but suspect they have an Irish ancestor. Also it is worth remembering that Ireland has a population of 5M but a diaspora or over 70M.

My Gr Gr Grandfather is listed in Canadian Census records as being born 1802 in Ireland, and paying his own passage to Prince Edward Island, Canada.

What it doesn't show is where in Ireland he was born. I'm sure there are many people with the same information. Family stories say he was born in Cork..and another branch of the family here claims he was from Kerry. Hpefully time will give me a better indication.

[Heber]

Look at the levels of y haplogroups E1b1b, G, and J in that project. I don't know of any population studies of Ireland that show such frequencies of those haplogroups.

Rich,
Good point. I am not happy with the non R1b stuff.  They have a seperate R1b database which is in pretty good shape. The administrators request only Y testers. There is a seperate site for mtDNA.
What I like about the site is the combination of DNA, academic studies, traditional genealogy, fokelore and cultural context.

[A.D.]

It is all a big puzzle.

As you will know M222 was trumpeted in 2006 as the marker of the descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. As I was adding the new idea from McEvoy and Bradley about I2b1a (from the new volume Celtic from the West), I thought I would slip in the Ui Neill story while I was at it.

Scarcely had I done that when I had an email by sheer coincidence from someone who has published on a Scottish M222 family. That led me to the R-M222 Haplogroup Project and the informative web-site of its Group Co-Administrator:  John D. McLaughlin. I began to feel very uneasy. All this Lowland Scots M222 does not fit the picture of the line of Niall.

And yet it is very clear that plenty of people whose ancestors claimed descent from Niall are indeed M222. They were not considered Cruithin. They were Gaelic speakers. (Probably all the La Tene arrivals had turned into Gaelic-speakers by the time we have any records anyway.) However they were living in that part of Ireland that had La Tene material. So were they really 100% Gaelic lads who were bent on pushing the Cruithin into the sea? Or is the story a bit more complex? Why is Niall's mother (in legend) supposed to be British?         


 

[A.D.]

Cruithne- according to irish lore were the picts or non-irish scotts.
the diferences were thsat the cruithne selected kings erom the FEMALE line
 mother to son
so the Irish king gave his daughter to the pictish king to get his hands on their land
if there is any truth in the lineige bit
it might make tracing 'tribal' ancestry a little more complicated

[A.D.]

After the end of the bronze age,around 500 bc (very roughly)
 there was a large population drop.
there was also a great deal of reforrestation.
add to trhis that by all accounts the genetic spread accross europe as a whole seems to be mostly female (the males owning the land stayed put)
it might throw some light on the subject
Nial Noígíallach  is surposed to have had 14 sons
my grandmother had 20 births  in tyrone in the 40's so...

[Jean M]

We have no evidence that any of the major migrations were mainly female. Quite the contrary. There seems more continuity of mtDNA lineages than Y-DNA. However shorter-distance female mobility has certainly been shown for Bell Beaker sites, and the conclusion is that patri-locality was usual in the European Bronze Age. That is to say - brides moved to the husband's settlement. Before that I don't think anyone has a clue.

Land-ownership was non-existent in modern terms until modern times. Hunter-gatherers roamed free. The only limit would be negotiated or enforced by neighbours. So it is easy to imagine that boundaries would be set by men. But it is equally easy to imagine that men would be more likely to migrate in the confidence that they could claim territories from those there already.

[OConnor]

There were Gallowglass from Scotland who may have contributed to the M222 in Donegal Ireland.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/sweeney/results


It is interesting though that they claim descent from Niall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Sweeney


The McSweeneys, also a realtively common name in the county, were a gallowglass, or mercenary, family who arrived in the county in the thirteenth century. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/donegal.html

[A.D.]

i checked out the female dna spread i got my info from richards 'blood of the vikings'
check it out i may have picked it up wrong.
we do have surgestion of this due to slave trading from  the myceneans to the vikings and the more obvious later.
i agre with your hunter gatherer male movement statement, it does seem totaly logical.
love to hear more