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Author Topic: Cunliffe's Map and R-L21  (Read 6159 times)
Heber
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2010, 02:32:33 PM »

Of course all the mythical Celtic Genealogies trace their ancestors back to the Scythian kings.

I know. I thought you might wonder about that. But it doesn't add up genetically or archaeologically. I cover the various myths in European national origin stories.

Jean, I checked the story of the Janus figures with the local historian, John Cunningham, who knows more about the history of Fermanagh as anyone else I know. His reply
"The only person I know of who did some early work on the Janus figure was Dorothy Lowry Corry and this was published in the Ulster Journal of Archeology.
 
(From an article on Ballyshannon) Saimer is a historic island. Its name derives from the Irish word for island which is "Inis" and the ancient name for the River Erne which was "Saimer", meaning the river which flows from the east.
Mythology has it that Inis Saimer was the first place where people set foot in Ireland. A chieftain from Scythia, near modern Macedonia, named Parthalon is said to have landed here with his followers, the Parthelonians, around 2700 BC".
The Parthelonians were pre Celtic people.
I understand the scepticism of scholars to the Milesian Legends. However they are just that, legends which were handed down in the oral tradition usually in the form of epic poems, in the bardic traditions, before they were written down in the scriptorium of monasteries. However I do have a healthy respect for the culture that they represent.
As a general rule the genealogies post 5th C are on solid ground (M222 and L226 and other L21 subclades confirm this), from 1st to 5th C AD, they are subject to poetic licence and pre BC in the ancient mists of time are in the sphere of legends.
However like all origin myths the challenge is to separate the fact from fiction.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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Maternal H1C1



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2010, 08:23:27 PM »

Of course all the mythical Celtic Genealogies trace their ancestors back to the Scythian kings.

I know. I thought you might wonder about that. But it doesn't add up genetically or archaeologically. I cover the various myths in European national origin stories.

Jean, I checked the story of the Janus figures with the local historian, John Cunningham, who knows more about the history of Fermanagh as anyone else I know. His reply
"The only person I know of who did some early work on the Janus figure was Dorothy Lowry Corry and this was published in the Ulster Journal of Archeology.
 
(From an article on Ballyshannon) Saimer is a historic island. Its name derives from the Irish word for island which is "Inis" and the ancient name for the River Erne which was "Saimer", meaning the river which flows from the east.
Mythology has it that Inis Saimer was the first place where people set foot in Ireland. A chieftain from Scythia, near modern Macedonia, named Parthalon is said to have landed here with his followers, the Parthelonians, around 2700 BC".
The Parthelonians were pre Celtic people.
I understand the scepticism of scholars to the Milesian Legends. However they are just that, legends which were handed down in the oral tradition usually in the form of epic poems, in the bardic traditions, before they were written down in the scriptorium of monasteries. However I do have a healthy respect for the culture that they represent.
As a general rule the genealogies post 5th C are on solid ground (M222 and L226 and other L21 subclades confirm this), from 1st to 5th C AD, they are subject to poetic licence and pre BC in the ancient mists of time are in the sphere of legends.
However like all origin myths the challenge is to separate the fact from fiction.

That is a pretty fair summary of Irish legend.  However you probably understate just how fabricated the BC part is.  It is pretty mythical and  does not at all tally even with the 2nd century AD situation on Ptolemy's map.  You mention Pathalon but scholars have shown this is just an Irish form of Biblical Bartholomew. Other peoples like the Tuatha de Dannan are clearly mythological, basically 'the gods'.  In general, the prehistoric period is very much fantastical weaving of classical, biblical and other native sources by the monks who wrote them down.  They were probably the creation of monastic scholars, not oral tradition that the monks then wrote down.   Decades ago scholars worked out that these legends are full of classical and biblical influences and in their surviving form must have been the work of literate, classically trained people i.e. monks.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 08:25:05 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2010, 08:22:20 AM »

Jean, Do you have the time and place of the launch.

The launch is taking place as part of the one-day forum "Rethinking the Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe" at St Anne's College, Oxford, on 10 July.

Copies should be available at the launch, in theory. Given the way publishers operate, I cannot guarantee that copies will be on Amazon that day.   

How did it go?

Were you able to attend?
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Jean M
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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 10:55:34 AM »

It was fascinating. It was the first time that I have heard either J.P. Mallory or Lord Renfrew speak. It confirmed my view of both. Mallory was easily the most impressive speaker, even with William O'Brien also giving us the Irish magic, and Andrew Fitzpatrick every bit as clear and interesting. Some less experienced speakers were much harder to hear from where I was sitting, but I got enough of their drift to look forward to the published version.

Lord Renfrew is a very experienced speaker - easy to follow to the point of over-simplification for that audience. But he has nothing new to say. In fact his position represented two steps backwards from earlier papers. He has retreated from the dual-wave proposition, which was much more acceptable to linguists than his initial proposal of IE language spread with farmers. And he has taken Sykes 2000 as gospel, citing 75% European origin from Palaeolithic Europe, which means a retreat from the only real strength of his initial position - the link with Cavalli-Sforza's early discovery that the dominant genetic cline in Europe is east to west. He is toying with Palaeolithic Continuity Theory, which he declared was supported by the genetic evidence! I did speak up after his lecture, and I saw one of the editors making a note, which I suspect read "contact Mark Jobling at Leicester University".      

I have just posted a report on my blog about the most intriguing paper. I have started a new thread here for that.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 12:54:22 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2010, 01:46:32 PM »

What did you say?
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Jean M
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« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2010, 02:17:45 PM »

In his lecture he quoted a figure from Sykes on mtDNA as 70% of present-day Europeans having a genetic origin in the Upper Palaeolithic, and only 20% input from the Neolithic.

I referred to that, and pointed out that Oppenheimer cited much the same figure in the volume that was published at the event. (I'd had a quick peep.) But, I said, Sykes published in the year 2000. That is a decade ago. A lot has been happening in genetics over the last decade, I said, and particularly in the last couple of years. I referred to the Baleresque et al paper published in January, which hit the headlines "We are descended from farmers!" I mentioned that this study was conducted by Mark Jobling's group at the University of Leicester.

He responded - "That was on Y-DNA, wasn't it?" Indeed, I replied, but we are rethinking mtDNA as well, mainly because of two papers published last year on Ancient DNA. They looked at hunter-gatherers of Northern Europe and found that they carried almost exclusively U4 and U5. Our own Cheddar Man, I reminded him, was also U5. Whereas the dominant mtDNA haplogroup in present-day Europeans is H. That had to come from somewhere.

I went on to point out that the dominant  genetic cline in Europe is from east to west. Cavalli-Sforza found that out years ago. [He knows that of course. He did joint publications with the same. It was the chief plank of his proposal that IE languages spread in the Neolithic.] Other studies have subsequently confirmed this. Whereas the cline should be from south to north, if the dominant episode in the peopling of Europe was in the Mesolithic.

He recovered well from this, saying that ancient DNA has the potential to tell the true story, though handicapped by the smallness of samples, and that it was a surer source than present populations. I agreed entirely, and said that the problem was that present populations have been used as proxies for ancient ones.  

Prof. Mallory chimed in on that topic a bit later, citing the Hungarian problem i.e. what happened to the Y-DNA N that we would expect in Uralic speakers? It was found in aDNA, but seems to have been watered down to vanishing point over the years.    

        
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 02:19:26 PM by Jean M » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2010, 04:36:48 AM »

"Assuming the
founder effect we detect originated in the sparse Mesolithic population
of Central-North Europe, the genetic evidence suggests strong cultural
interaction and admixture occurred between the pioneer horticultural
groups and local foragers, which resulted in widespread adaptation of
the Neolithic lifestyle by indigenous residents. This interpretation is
consistent with computational models indicating that although the
process of the expansion of farming communities throughout much of
Europe would have been demic, even minute amounts of gene flow
from foragers over a long time period would have lead to a predominantly
Mesolithic contribution to their admixed offspring.
Following this model, it would not be surprising to associate a
localized Neolithic demic expansion with a genetic lineage absent in
the Fertile Crescent where farming originated and where other
Y-chromosome haplogroups, such as G and J, have been associated
with the initial demic spread of farming toward Southeast Europe".
(Peter A Underhill et al., Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European
and Asian Y chromosome within haplogroup R1a", EJHG, 2009).

This I wrote a few years ago to explain how Hg. R1b1* and subclade
from the Italian refugium peopled Europe.

I hypothesized also that hg. R1a was in the Rhaetian Refugium. Underhill et al.
write that "but given the lack of informative SNP markers the ultimate source
area of haplogroup R1a dispersals remains yet to be refined".


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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2010, 06:37:51 AM »

Except that what you quoted above is entirely speculative and does not fit the evidence.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2010, 08:10:47 AM »

Yes, of course I am speculating. By a sheet and a pencil. I haven't labs, funds, newspapers etc. But I am waiting trustful the proofs, like the aDNA test.
What I wrote some years ago and gained me two banishments now you find written by illustrious scholars. And what about this?

"The present day distribution of Y chromosomes bearing the haplogroup
J1 M267*G variant has been associated with different episodes of human
demographic history, the main one being the diffusion of Islam since
the Early Middle Ages. To better understand the modes and timing of J1
dispersals, we reconstructed the genealogical relationships among 282
M267*G chromosomes from 29 populations typed at 20 YSTRs and 6 SNPs.
Phylogenetic analyses depicted a new genetic background consistent
with climate-driven demographic dynamics occurring during two key
phases of human pre-history: (1) the spatial expansion of hunter
gatherers in response to the end of the late Pleistocene cooling
phases and (2) the displacement of groups of foragers/herders
following the mid-Holocene rainfall retreats across the Sahara and
Arabia. Furthermore, J1 STR motifs previously used to trace Arab or
Jewish ancestries were shown unsuitable as diagnostic markers for
ethnicity" (Tofanelli et al., J1-M267 Y lineage marks climate-driven pre-historical human displacements).

The difference between a scientist and a believer is that also the scientist dreams, but, like said Nietzsche, he remains linked to the earth.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 08:15:08 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2010, 08:17:39 AM »

I wasn't talking about your speculations. I was talking about the Mesolithic speculation in the quote in your earlier post, speculation which is not supported by the evidence.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2010, 08:25:24 AM »

I just answered you in another thread:

I don't think that Peter A Underhill, Natalie M Myres, Siiri Rootsi, Mait Metspalu, Lev A Zhivotovsky, Roy J King,
Alice A Lin, Cheryl-Emiliane T Chow, Ornella Semino, Vincenza Battaglia, Ildus Kutuev, Mari Ja¨rve,
Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Qasim Ayub, Aisha Mohyuddin, S Qasim Mehdi, Sanghamitra Sengupta,
Evgeny I Rogaev, Elza K Khusnutdinova, Andrey Pshenichnov, Oleg Balanovsky, Elena Balanovska,
Nina Jeran, Dubravka Havas Augustin, Marian Baldovic, Rene J Herrera, Kumarasamy Thangaraj,
Vijay Singh, Lalji Singh, Partha Majumder, Pavao Rudan, Dragan Primorac, Richard Villems
and Toomas Kivisild are morons and the unique Vincenzino Pinzochero Vizzaccaro Vizachero understands genetics.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2010, 08:58:58 AM »

I just answered you in another thread:

I don't think that Peter A Underhill, Natalie M Myres, Siiri Rootsi, Mait Metspalu, Lev A Zhivotovsky, Roy J King,
Alice A Lin, Cheryl-Emiliane T Chow, Ornella Semino, Vincenza Battaglia, Ildus Kutuev, Mari Ja¨rve,
Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Qasim Ayub, Aisha Mohyuddin, S Qasim Mehdi, Sanghamitra Sengupta,
Evgeny I Rogaev, Elza K Khusnutdinova, Andrey Pshenichnov, Oleg Balanovsky, Elena Balanovska,
Nina Jeran, Dubravka Havas Augustin, Marian Baldovic, Rene J Herrera, Kumarasamy Thangaraj,
Vijay Singh, Lalji Singh, Partha Majumder, Pavao Rudan, Dragan Primorac, Richard Villems
and Toomas Kivisild are morons and the unique Vincenzino Pinzochero Vizzaccaro Vizachero understands genetics.


I don't think they are saying what you seem to think they are saying.

What contentions of Vince Vizachero are they directly contradicting?

Which of them believes that R1b (or R1b1 or R1b1b2) spent the Younger Dryas in Italy?

Besides, one can hold erroneous opinions without necessarily being a moron.

I mean, I think you are wrong in this case, but I don't think you are a moron.

You should really stop name-calling, even if you're doing it in Italian. Calling someone "pinzochero" isn't a good way to deal with opinions with which you simply disagree. You're coming off as someone who wants to see Italy as the font of R1b in Europe more out of excessive national pride and partisanship than as someone who is really convinced by the evidence.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 09:13:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2010, 11:11:59 AM »

"What contentions of Vince Vizachero are they directly contradicting?"

They all are using the Zhivotovskij mutation rate, adversed by Vizachero,
and by Klyosov etc. You know that if we adopt this mutation rate everything
about R1b1b2 changes.

"Which of them believes that R1b (or R1b1 or R1b1b2) spent the Younger Dryas in Italy?"

This is my theory. If they would think this, they should quote me.

"You should really stop name-calling, even if you're doing it in Italian. Calling
someone "pinzochero" isn't a good way to deal with opinions with which you simply
disagree".

That the surname Vizzaccaro, the original Italian of the Americanized Vizachero,
derives from a dialectal form of "pinzochero" (bigot) is a theory of mine.
Take it like the Italian Refugium and other theories of mine.
But be care: I am deeply convinced of all my theories.

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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2010, 02:45:57 PM »

Well, the "pinzochero" thing is an insulting theory, and apparently intentionally so. You should stop it.

There is little justification for using Zhivotovsky's rates outside of the specific circumstance where they were warranted, which, as I recall, had to do with the Maoris in New Zealand. One would have to assume a Maori-like situation everywhere to justify using the Zhivotovsky rates everywhere, since they depart from the actual, empirically observed mutation rates.

There is no reason to believe conditions in Europe and Asia mirrored those that justified the use of Zhivotovsky's "adjusted" rates on an island where the history that necessitated such an adjustment was known. In fact, if one makes R1b1b2 three times older than it appears to be by using Zhivotovsky rates to estimate its age, what happens to much more diverse haplogroups like I in Europe? Wouldn't it become outrageously old? If one adjusts the age of R1b1b2 by "zhiving" it upwards by a factor of three, he must do the same with all the other haplogroups.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2010, 03:07:44 PM »

Stop, but why your "zhiving"? Russian "zhiv-", like Latin "uiuere", is "to live", like the marvelous "Doktor Zhivago".
Your argument is not convincing. Different haplogroups have different mutation rate and if you take a J and an R and calculate their MRCA you reach about 7500YBP. Clearly unlikely.
I think that that all Genetists use Zhivotovskij's rate has some weight.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 05:09:32 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2010, 07:52:14 AM »

Stop, but why your "zhiving"? Russian "zhiv-", like Latin "uiuere", is "to live", like the marvelous "Doktor Zhivago".
Your argument is not convincing. Different haplogroups have different mutation rate and if you take a J and an R and calculate their MRCA you reach about 7500YBP. Clearly unlikely.
I think that that all Genetists use Zhivotovskij's rate has some weight.

"Zhiving" is my own new word for "fudging" or manipulating something to make it go the way you want it to go.

It is pretty plain that all geneticists do not always use Zhivotovsky's rates. Absent some really compelling historical evidence to warrant it, what reason is there to take the actual observed father-to-son mutation rates and slow them down by a factor of three?

And what of y haplogroup I and other haplogroups more diverse than R1b1b2? If you are going to use Zhivotovsky rates on R1b1b2, you've got to do that with I and the other y haplogroups, as well. Are you prepared to say that y haplogroup I is more than 60,000 years old in Europe?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:53:13 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2010, 09:01:20 AM »

Rich, the answer is on YHRD. Everything makes us think to Central Europe for the origin of R1b1b2a.
My question is if it was there in origin or has come from Italy, the Italian Refugium. These data
demonstrate without any doubt that it didn't come from Middle East, which is a peripheral zone of
expansion. My theory remains always likely.


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4 of 613 Stuttgart, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
3 of 743 Chemnitz, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 43 Krusevo, Macedonia [Aromun] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
2 of 811 Leipzig, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 565 Northern Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 1277 United States [African American] African - Afro-American North America
2 of 384 Ravenna, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 255 Rio Grande Do Sul, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Latin America
2 of 738 Cologne, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 222 Latium, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 792 Central Portugal, Portugal [Portuguese] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 657 Berlin, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
2 of 69 South Dakota, United States [Chippewa/Sioux] Amerindian North America
1 of 212 Costa Rica [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 220 North Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 49 Boa Vista, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 159 Mérida, Mexico [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 102 Espirito Santo, Brazil [Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
1 of 50 Alpujarra de la Sierra, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 1177 Antioquia, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 47 Rasht, Iran [Gilaki] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Asia
1 of 393 Warsaw, Poland [Polish] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 91 Cauca, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 98 Rimini, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 97 Birmingham, United Kingdom [English] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 120 Zaragoza, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 645 Prague, Czech Republic [Czech] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 314 Sicily, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 102 Adana, Turkey [Eti] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 113 Syria [Syrian] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Asia
1 of 433 Freiburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 155 Ireland [Irish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 160 Turkey [Turkish] Eurasian - Altaic Asia
1 of 845 South Korea [Korean] East Asian - Korean Asia
1 of 447 Sao Paulo, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 245 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 103 Santiago de Compostela, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 23 Florida, United States [Hispanic American] Admixed North America
1 of 33 Albania [Jevg Romani] Eurasian - Indo-Iranian Europe
1 of 54 Formosa, Argentina [European] Eurasian - European Latin America
1 of 54 Nizhnii Novgorod, Russian Federation [Russian] Eurasian - European - Eastern European Europe
1 of 283 Magdeburg, Germany [German] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 35 Oregon, United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America
1 of 250 Macedonia [Macedonian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
1 of 95 Nariño, Colombia [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 311 Peru [Mestizo] Admixed Latin America
1 of 377 Northern Norway, Norway [Norwegian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 114 Leuven, Belgium [Belgian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 49 Reunion [Créole Métis] Admixed Africa
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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