World Families Forums - Frequency of R1b1b2 in India

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 19, 2014, 01:19:55 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Frequency of R1b1b2 in India
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Frequency of R1b1b2 in India  (Read 2814 times)
aroncbrown
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« on: July 07, 2010, 10:27:52 AM »

Can anyone explain the low frequency of the R1b1b2 Sub-clade in India? Thanks in advance for any information
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 01:32:29 PM »

I think because it is born in West Europe and its expansion reached Middle East, Turkey, Iraq, Iran and the Russian Plane but a little bit India, where arrived the sister haplogroup R1a, probably born in West Europe but expanded firstly to East Europe and very strong among the satem-Indoeuropeans who reached India.
India is rich of R2, which expanded there in very ancient times from Central Asia, probably when R1 was going to West Europe, generating R1a and R1b.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 06:54:03 PM »

There is no way R1b1b2 was born in Western Europe, Gioiello. The SNP trail leads from the Near East into Europe and in Europe itself from SE to NW. The same can be said of the haplotype evidence. Not only that, but all of R1b's genetic cousins are out in Asia.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=6b1a6e6a41&view=att&th=1266229e84035fd1&attid=0.2&disp=inline&zw

If R1b1b2 were born in Italy, as you seem to think, why did all or most of the younger, more derived stuff turn left (west) and all or most of the older, less derived stuff (or the stuff that parted company from western R1b1b2 farther down the phylogenetic tree, closer to the root) turn right (east)? If Italy were the fount of R1b1b2, we should expect to see a more even distribution of R1b1b2 clades and haplotypes, with Italy as the center. That is precisely not what we see. Intsead, we see both an SNP and haplotype trail leading from SW Asia into Europe and up to the northwest.

Italy itself has less R1b1b2 haplotype diversity than the Balkans and much less than the Near East. The prevalence of P310- in southern Italy is not surprising given its proximity to the Balkans. The fact that some clades appear in Italy that are somewhat odd for Western Europe is also not surprising, given Italy's central and very cosmopolitan role in the far-flung Roman Empire. By themselves, however, they don't constitute anything like evidence that R1b1b2 originated in Italy or spent the Younger Dryas there.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 07:07:06 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 01:56:37 AM »

Reading "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a":
"The age of microsatellite variation within haplogroups was evaluated using the methodology described
by Zhivotovsky et al as modified according to Sengupta et al using microsatellite evolutionary effective
mutation rate of 6.9104 per 25 years" (p.2).
I don't think that Peter A Underhill, Natalie M Myres, Siiri Rootsi, Mait Metspalu, Lev A Zhivotovsky, Roy J King,
Alice A Lin, Cheryl-Emiliane T Chow, Ornella Semino, Vincenza Battaglia, Ildus Kutuev, Mari Ja¨rve,
Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Qasim Ayub, Aisha Mohyuddin, S Qasim Mehdi, Sanghamitra Sengupta,
Evgeny I Rogaev, Elza K Khusnutdinova, Andrey Pshenichnov, Oleg Balanovsky, Elena Balanovska,
Nina Jeran, Dubravka Havas Augustin, Marian Baldovic, Rene J Herrera, Kumarasamy Thangaraj,
Vijay Singh, Lalji Singh, Partha Majumder, Pavao Rudan, Dragan Primorac, Richard Villems
and Toomas Kivisild are morons and the unique Vincenzino Pinzochero Vizzaccaro Vizachero understands genetics.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 02:13:02 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2010, 06:59:51 PM »

Reading "Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a":
"The age of microsatellite variation within haplogroups was evaluated using the methodology described
by Zhivotovsky et al as modified according to Sengupta et al using microsatellite evolutionary effective
mutation rate of 6.9104 per 25 years" (p.2).
I don't think that Peter A Underhill.(etc.).... are morons and ....
Maliclavelli,

I recommend reading the following study.
"New binary polymorphisms reshape and increase resolution of the human Y chromosomal haplogroup tree" by Karafet et al.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Karafet-et-all-GR508.pdf
Quote from: Karafet_2008_study
These SNPs have a uniform ascertainment scheme, which makes them useful for estimating the length of particular branches on the tree ......
We used a novel method to estimate the relative ages of internal nodes of the tree that relies on a uniform probability distribution for the age of mutations in the ancestry of a lineage.
My understanding of the situation is that in 2008 Karafet et al (which BTW includes Underhill & Hammer) are using an SNP counting approach that corroborates NOT using the Zhivotovsky "fudge" factor, at least for describing the general Y chromosome haplogroup tree.  In the Ht35 project, Vince V. has counted SNP's/branch length down at the R-M269 and major sub-clade level, consistent with Karafet's 2008 approach which put's R1's TMRCA at 18,500 ybp.  This SNP method supports micro-satellite (STR marker) diversity based methods that don't have the Zhivotovsky "fudge" factor,

I'm no statistician but I get the drift that later (more up-to-date) evidence and alternative methods support NOT using Zhivotovsky. What's the weight of the evidence that would change my thinking that Zhivotovsky's method could be applied to the whole Y DNA haplogroup tree accurately?

My understanding is that the Zhivotovsky study is older and the method is singular (not cross-checked as thoroughly or at least as broadly.)  Some people may generalize it it out of context of its original purpose.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 11:54:15 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 08:30:31 AM »

Interesting that this 2006 study found 13% R1b in Pakistan (8% M73+, 5% M269+).

I have also read there is a fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India, but I haven't been able to find the supporting study yet.

This article (which is in desperate need of an update) says the following:

Quote
Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%[22]. Besides these, R1b has appeared in Balochi (8%), Chenchu (2%), Makrani (5%), Newars (10.6%), Pallan (3.5%), Pathan (10%), Punjabi (7.6%) and West Bengalis (6.5%).[21][22],[23]

The numbers in brackets are footnotes referring to studies. 21 refers to "Kivilsild et al (2005)", but the only 2005 paper by Kivilsild I could find was an mtDNA study. Maybe someone else will have better luck. 22 refers to "Sengupta et al (2005)", and 23 refers to "Gayden, T; Cadenas, AM; Regueiro, M; Singh, NB; Zhivotovsky, LA; Underhill, PA; Cavalli-Sforza, LL; Herrera, RJ (2007), "The Himalayas as a directional barrier to gene flow.", American journal of human genetics 80 (5): 884–94, doi:10.1086/516757, PMID 17436243".  I haven't looked at or for those last two yet.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:43:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 09:02:22 AM »

Interesting that this 2006 study found 13% R1b in Pakistan (8% M73+, 5% M269+).

I have also read there is a fairly high frequency of R1b among Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh in northern India, but I haven't been able to find the supporting study yet.

This article (which is in desperate need of an update) says the following:

Quote
Although it is rare in South Asia, some populations show relatively high percentages for R1b. These include Lambadi(Andhra Pradesh) showing 37%[21] , Hazara 32%[22] and Agharia(East India) at 30%[22]. Besides these, R1b has appeared in Balochi (8%), Chenchu (2%), Makrani (5%), Newars (10.6%), Pallan (3.5%), Pathan (10%), Punjabi (7.6%) and West Bengalis (6.5%).[21][22],[23]

The numbers in brackets are footnotes referring to studies. 21 refers to "Kivilsild et al (2005)", but the only 2005 paper by Kivilsild I could find was an mtDNA study. Maybe someone else will have better luck. 22 refers to "Sengupta et al (2005)", and 23 refers to "Gayden, T; Cadenas, AM; Regueiro, M; Singh, NB; Zhivotovsky, LA; Underhill, PA; Cavalli-Sforza, LL; Herrera, RJ (2007), "The Himalayas as a directional barrier to gene flow.", American journal of human genetics 80 (5): 884–94, doi:10.1086/516757, PMID 17436243".  I haven't looked at or for those last two yet.

Okay, apparently "Kivilsild et al (2005)" was an error and "Kivilsild et al (2003)" was meant.

Look at Figure 3 in this Kivilsild et al (2003) study for the supporting figures on M269 among the various groups studied. 13 of 35 Lambadi in Andhra Pradesh were M269+, for example. The Lambadi speak Lambadi, which is a branch of Rajasthani, an Indo-European language.

It is interesting that R1b1b2 was the most frequent y haplogroup among the Lambadi men sampled. Of 35 Lambadi tested, 13 were R1b1b2, and only 3 were R1a. 6 were L1; 6 were C*; 3 were H1; 2 were J2*; 1 was F*; and 1 was P*.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 09:12:22 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1253


« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 05:15:50 AM »

I suppose that I should mention this in P of E, as it seems a common misconception that R1b1b2 did not reach India at all.
Logged
argiedude
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 146


« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 10:27:40 PM »

Sengupta's 2006 study of India included 176 Pakistanis and 728 Indians, for a total of 904 samples. It found 9 M269+ samples, or 1% R1b1b2. 8 had 393=12 and 7 of these 8 also had 461=11, indicating that at least 7 of the M269+ were practically guaranteed to be P310- (probably all 8).

The 9th sample had 393=14 and 461=12, so it was likely a P310+. This 9th sample came from north Pakistan.
Logged

y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 01:10:04 AM »

Of course I think that these few R1b1b2a (1%) in India are due to a wave of advance from West. The percentage of R1b1b2a is decreasing going to East. If West Asia/Middle East was its origin we should expect a similar percentage Westward and Eastward, "il che non è", how we say in Italian.
Then all these places (except Western Europe) lack all the subclades and you demonstrated that Italy has the highest presence and variance of R-L51+.
I have always thought that also R1b1* came to North Africa from Italy and not from Middle East. Unfortunately I haven't your last spreadsheet which enjoys Sam Vass, I don't understand why.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 04:51:19 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 08:14:11 AM »

Of course I think that these few R1b1b2a (1%) in India are due to a wave of advance from West. The percentage of R1b1b2a is decreasing going to East. If West Asia/Middle East was its origin we should expect a similar percentage Westward and Eastward, "il che non è", how we say in Italian.
Then all these places (except Western Europe) lack all the subclades and you demonstrated that Italy has the highest presence and variance of R-L51+.
I have always thought that also R1b1* came to North Africa from Italy and not from Middle East. Unfortunately I haven't your last spreadsheet which enjoys Sam Vass, I don't understand why.

By that same logic, if R1b1b2 spent the LGM in Italy, then we should see R1b1b2 radiating outward from that center, with loads of western R1b1b2 in the nearby Balkans. There should at least be copious amounts of it right across the Adriatic.

I don't think the relative lack of R1b1b2 in India and Pakistan says much much at all about the origin of R1b1b2. It just says there isn't much R1b1b2 in India and Pakistan.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 08:25:34 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 10:00:15 AM »

I haven't ever spoken of LGM for the Italian Refugium, but of Younger Dryas. Italy was the couche of R1b1* till R-L51+. R-L51+ began to expand from Italy to North (eastward and westward the Alps): there is a map of Argiedude that demonstrates, I think, that that expansion happened when North-Adriatic was yet submerged at the Croatia level. That R1b1b2a is massive in Italy (the paper of Ferri on Modena: R1b=67,7% and 15/16% is R1b1b2a) is demonstrated, and also in Central Europe, I think from Italy. Of course Balkans have had the previous expansion, I think always from the Italian Refugium, of R1a-M420 (see the last posts of Argiedude), which expanded to East and probably Balkans were a Refugium of hg. I. But the presence of R1b1b2a among Aromuns is massive (whichever is its origin: from Romans or ancient Balkans): the Aromuns mtDNA seems rooted in the Balkans more than from Italy/Rhine Valley. But Balkans have an R1b1b2a cluster, that that Argiedude named
the "Balkan cluster" with DYS385=11,11. I think having demonstrated that this cluster is more ancient in Italy: see Risso I put on Ysearch from SMGF.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:01:55 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 12:01:29 PM »

Younger Dryas or LGM, it makes little difference. It just doesn't make much sense.

But I (sort of) understand national pride. There are some Spanish guys who are still arguing for the old R1b Iberian Ice Age Refuge idea.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 12:01:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 12:50:36 PM »

Everybody has national pride. There is a Celt, a Jewish, a Phoenician, an Indian one etc. The difference is in the proofs and arguments one carries.
To rebut a national pride with another one isn't a proof.
I am so sure of my theories that I am waiting trustful the aDNA test.
I know that for the most part of Western Europeans to be at least "Italians" isn't "agreable", but "tant pis pour eux".
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

argiedude
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 146


« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 04:04:03 PM »

Unfortunately I haven't your last spreadsheet which enjoys Sam Vass, I don't understand why.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/tuj7jh
Logged

y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 05:38:37 PM »

Everybody has national pride. There is a Celt, a Jewish, a Phoenician, an Indian one etc. The difference is in the proofs and arguments one carries.
To rebut a national pride with another one isn't a proof.
I am so sure of my theories that I am waiting trustful the aDNA test.
I know that for the most part of Western Europeans to be at least "Italians" isn't "agreable", but "tant pis pour eux".
I think what Rich is trying to say is the current evidence does not support an Out of Italy hypothesis.

You can theorize all day, but the current situation is that R1b1b2 came from Southwest Asia. I'm already part-Italian anyway. Va bene.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 07:55:22 AM »

I thank you, Argiedude, but the problem was that my PC, after having been put in order again, has lost Office (I bought it, but have had no time to find my license). I'll go to see it to another PC.

Perhaps I found the closest to you: you aren't isolate now. See: VJKMP.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 08:02:16 AM »

More interesting: GPYZW. Callaway family.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 09:16:42 AM »

The out-of-Italy thing doesn't make sense because the distribution of R1b1b2 doesn't match it. Why don't we see a strong P310- presence to the immediate north and west of Italy instead of only to its east, in the Balkans? Why is P310- much stronger in southern Italy than in the North, where P312+ prevails?

Why is the R1b1b2 variance much lower than that in the Near East?

No, it looks like R1b1b2 entered Europe in the Southeast and that southern Italy, to a certain extent, was simply an extension of that. Odd R1b subclades (like V88) pop up in Italy because it was the cosmopolitan center of the Roman Empire, but, overall, the R1b1b2 in Italy gives no indication of any special antiquity.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 10:55:11 AM »

A theory is made by the study (and the resolution) of particular cases. This is what I've done and do.
To understand what link Argiedude to these three Callaway (not the whole family, that is very different genetically) can make us understand many things.

My theory is the generalization of numerous particular cases I have spoken of in my posts. I think yours are prejudices, i.e. judgements given before, before an analysis of particular cases.
Anyway the answer will come from the aDNA. Why don't you wait for that time like I am waiting for it?

Before we know R-L21, Italy was plenty of Gauls, of barbarians from North etc.?
Where are all these guys now? Only the friend Argiedude, and his case can mean two things: either he is from these "Callaway" (French? Normans?) or he is an ancient Italian from whom all these Northerners descend.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2010, 11:15:33 AM »

A theory is made by the study (and the resolution) of particular cases. This is what I've done and do.
To understand what link Argiedude to these three Callaway (not the whole family, that is very different genetically) can make us understand many things.

My theory is the generalization of numerous particular cases I have spoken of in my posts. I think yours are prejudices, i.e. judgements given before, before an analysis of particular cases.
Anyway the answer will come from the aDNA. Why don't you wait for that time like I am waiting for it?

Before we know R-L21, Italy was plenty of Gauls, of barbarians from North etc.?
Where are all these guys now? Only the friend Argiedude, and his case can mean two things: either he is from these "Callaway" (French? Normans?) or he is an ancient Italian from whom all these Northerners descend.

I don't think my ideas are based on prejudices. I don't have any particular preferences among origin theories for R1b1b2. For example, an origin in Italy would suit me just fine, but I just don't see it. Iberia would be fine with me, as well, but, like Italy, I don't think the evidence supports it.

I don't think aDNA is the answer because I doubt enough of it will ever be obtained to field an adequate sample population. One or two results here or there are tantalizing, but that's about all. Another problem with aDNA is resolution. How deeply SNP tested can it be? We're lucky when we get as far as M269.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2010, 11:40:02 AM »

I am not so pessimist about aDNA. They have tested Neanderthal, why aren't able to test a man ancient one third of him? Jews are testing their "bones", why not Oetzi?

Actually your question have already had an answer, many answers. The maps of Argiedude gave satistaction to all your desires. There are two ancient settlements of R1-M420, R1b1* etc.: one in Turkey- Middle East and one in Western Europe (above in Italy I think). They are contemporaneous and probably demonstrate an ancient settlement.

What is for Italy and Western Europe is that all subclades, from R-L51, are born in Italy and then diffused in Europe. Perhaps we'll be able to discern in Middle East what is ancient (but sterile: they hadn't subclades) and what has come from Western Europe.
In Iraq there is a R1b1b2* with DYS452=28, very different from the modal (Western European) 30, and I think having demonstrated that the path from R1b1* to R1b1b2a1b/something has born in Western Europe and not elsewhere.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2010, 03:30:26 PM »

In Iraq there is a R1b1b2* with DYS452=28, very different from the modal (Western European) 30, and I think having demonstrated that the path from R1b1* to R1b1b2a1b/something has born in Western Europe and not elsewhere.

In Wales there is an R-L21 with this value as well :)
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2103


« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2010, 03:59:59 PM »

I don't know if you know my theory of the mutations around the modal, but in HG. R DYS452 has the modal 30, then the mutations will be around this value: 30,31,30,29,30. 28 from 29 is a mutation for the tangent and not around the modal, then very rare, but possible.
This should make us think to the ancientness of R-L21, probably more ancient than usually thought.
The case of Argiedude, R-L21, but with a great variance, let me think to a great ancientness and possibly to an Italian origin of this haplogroup. We shall see what will be discovered about its relatedness with these "Calloway".
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2010, 06:10:06 PM »

I have read your post regarding this, but I think statistically you will always get outliers and oddities. Personally I don't think my results are that far from WAMH to raise eyebrows, there are others who are further, and I don't think they will help increase the age of L21.

As it happens I have three values that are two off modal

14 @ DYS557

13 @ DYS534        (which is considered fast anyway)

and of course

28 @ DYS452

I think the first two are likely very old in my line, I don't have enough data to be sure of the latter.

Either way I don't think they will make any difference to the age of R-L21, but one day may help me define a cluster.
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.21 seconds with 18 queries.