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acekon
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« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2012, 12:27:33 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 12:28:19 PM by acekon » Logged

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MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2012, 01:12:01 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.
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Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2012, 02:05:50 PM »

I sincerely doubt West Asian R1b is from the Balkans.The lack of other Balkan lineages and Northern European autosomal components in West Asia is quite telling. That is a lot of wishful thinking and speculation that R1b comes from Hitties and etc. Especially when you find R1b in iran where Hitties have nothing to do with anything.

Also Humanist, Hurrians did not come from the steepes of Central Asia. That sounds ridiculous. This would require them to be present before Indo-Iranians or co-existing with them. This would mean at least one of the BMAC, keltiminar and Botai cultures would have been Hurrian speaking. Also Central Asian and Assyrian/Armenians share very little in terms of ydna besides J2a/G2a. Does that sound likely to you? On the other hand if that was the case it would nicely explain the Gedrosia component btw.
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acekon
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« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2012, 03:27:02 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 03:28:47 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2012, 06:04:03 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?

I asked Peter Hrechdakian to place LoPiccolo in the right group right after the SNP results came in and he did so within an hour.

Life is too short to be worried about conspiracies and closets and talking about people who have not been involved in the hobby in two years.
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Humanist
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2012, 08:41:37 PM »


Yes of course you are right. You might want to ask are dear friend Humanist who worked on the Assyrian-Jewish project with "David" about where "David" places the origins of R1b, you might be surprised, [if the map still exists!]

I do not recall.  Would you please remind me?  

And, why are you referring to me as "our dear friend Humanist?"  I have been nothing but friendly with you.  

You might also inquire of our dear friend Humanist and his other friend who claims he is Assyrian from ABF about the theory of African/Asian language, which  shows Irish and Italian people connected from Afro-Asian language but not Basque, and that this can be perhaps linked with R1b; you can ask Humanist, these questions.

I believe there may be a link between Assyrians (or rather, northern Middle Easterners) and Atlantic/Med populations.  Certainly.  But, I have never opined on Elias' theories regarding an Afro-Asiatic substratum in insular Celtic.   Anyone who has read a good many ABF threads would know quite well that Elias and I disagree on many things.  Including the origin of Semitic languages.  I believe Semitic languages were intrusive in the northeastern Middle East.  It is likely that at least Caucasian/Hurrian languages and Sumerian were spoken in what became Assyria (N Iraq), before the arrival of Akkadians and other Semitic-speaking people.  

This is why I ask our dear friend Humanist [Assyrian specialist]which group belongs to L584.

You know as much as I do.  Please refer to the ht35 project.  Members of the R-L584 category include individuals from the following groups: Armenians, Ashkenazi Jews, an Alevi from Turkey, Assyrians, and possibly one Iranian man from Khuzestan on 23andMe (L405-).  The Iranian gentleman from 23andMe was offered a free 67 marker FTDNA test.  He never replied.  

I also question Dienekes, about K12- K7 run.Showing autosomal /Yemeni Jew/Basque in one run but not another.
 
"Southern" component in comparison to "West Asian" has netted two entirely different results, by region and group isolates.

k12b versus k7b

"Southern"-"South West Asian" components, conflicting results.

"k7b" "Southern/Saudi" component;

1]Finnish_D-[0.0%]

2]French Basque-[26.8%]

3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi -[63.4%-64.8%]


"k12b" "Southwest Asian" component;

1]Finnish_D-[2.6%]

2]French Basque-[0.0%]

3]Yemeni Jews/Saudi-[53.8%-67.7%]

So also autosomal amongst Assyrian might also be in question perhaps depending on who does test.

I would kindly ask that you direct that question to Dienekes.  He does not believe we have any connection to the Assyrians.  He believes we are basically former Armenians.

Quote
Dienekes: All indications are that the modern Neo-Aramaic speakers (who should not be confused with the historical Assyrians, even though they share the same name) are basically Armenians that are shifted slightly in an Iranian direction...

If you wish to discuss matters with me related to Assyrian genetics, you can find me at ABF.  Although I cannot promise I will be there often over the next several weeks.  Academic commitments.  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 08:56:19 PM by Humanist » Logged

acekon
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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2012, 09:11:36 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

vincent@vizachero.com , Group Administrator

In some surname groups, there are still administrators listed that passed away years ago. Like I said, VV has not been involved in the last couple of years.

Somebody can take time to change LoPiccolo to correct category but not give proper information for group administrator for many years?

What else is in closet?

I asked Peter Hrechdakian to place LoPiccolo in the right group right after the SNP results came in and he did so within an hour.

Life is too short to be worried about conspiracies and closets and talking about people who have not been involved in the hobby in two years.


Well it cuts both ways right?

Not everyone alerted P.H. only yourself and Humanist,Maliclavelli.
It is very unlikely Lopiccolo would know what questions to ask about his str's/snps/ L584 placement.
Even if he did know what to ask, what use would it have been to inactive admin/email?
.
No conspiracies. Just some simple answers and correct information.
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YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
acekon
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2012, 09:23:13 PM »

yg
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 01:39:44 AM by acekon » Logged

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acekon
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« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2012, 01:39:12 PM »

@InterestedInhistory
 
1]You have had your post deleted.
2]You follow the work of one who calls himself "Polako"
3]You use foul language.
4]You use scorn and or derision against posters.
5]You accuse posters of trolling.
 
Many of the posters here are quality posters who I have seen put down on other forums, perhaps you are aware of this, perhaps not.

However when somebody provides evidence that is not to your liking you become very irritated.

"I think you should learn to speak and write english properly, stop spreading nationalistic bullshit before falsely assuming things about other people's ancestry and heritage"
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 01:43:59 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2012, 08:35:02 PM »

@InterestedInhistory
 
1]You have had your post deleted.
2]You follow the work of one who calls himself "Polako"
3]You use foul language.
4]You use scorn and or derision against posters.
5]You accuse posters of trolling.
 
Many of the posters here are quality posters who I have seen put down on other forums, perhaps you are aware of this, perhaps not.

However when somebody provides evidence that is not to your liking you become very irritated.

"I think you should learn to speak and write english properly, stop spreading nationalistic bullshit before falsely assuming things about other people's ancestry and heritage"

Blah blah. Don't bring your hatred for Polako into this. I certainly don't "follow" his work.If you have an issue with him go take it up with him. I disagree with him about some things and agree with him about some things like with most people.

I said that comment to a guy tho thinks R1b and R1a are Western European and said IE is Central European.  Where is the evidence for any of this? Please tell me. Evidence not to my liking? So these are accepted facts? Or are you just making garbage up again? Why the hate ? Isn't that what you hate Polako for? His arguments about IE yet here was somebody else who said IE was Central European and you are getting mad for me calling someone out on it. When others say IE is Central European it is ok but when Polako says it he is wrong for saying it. Get over your hate for somebody else and stop talking it out on me. You are a hypocrite of the utmost order. You had a post deleted as well. Big deal.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:45:24 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2012, 01:41:28 AM »

LOL

I deleted my own post. I have no issues or hate for Polako, I actually like him, and would help him anytime, something I doubt you would do. I'm probably more closely related to him indirectly than you; I do plot with Poles btw. I would stand up for Polako just as I would for JeanM and many of the good posters on this forum because they actually contribute good ideas. Everyone is entitled to conjecture and or postulate, that is how ideas can grow, no matter how weird they are. However when a disingenuous poster like yourself comes along that is another matter. Although other posters have commented on your disposition, the blatant disrespect you have pretty much speaks for itself.

 
Here is some  more "Blah blah" for you to suck on. I just ran my 23andme top 6 list the other day. Please tell me why I would not be proud to be associated with Polako and R1a if they take such a prominent position in my ancestry?

Using the google docs technique my top 6 out of 117_Polish-German

1)R1a1a-23
2)R1a1a*-9
3)I*-9
4)R1b1b2a1a1*-8-[U106?]
5)R1b1b2a1a2f*-7[L21/S145?]
6)R1b1b2a1a1d1*-5[L47+/L44-?]
6)R1b1b2a-5[L150/L23/L584+/-?]

Any way this is a Assyrian thread and the closest I'm to Assyrians is L150+L584-.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 01:43:07 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
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acekon
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« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2012, 12:10:16 PM »

R1b in the following locations in study,comparing language in the following communities, Talysh/Avesta Gilaki, Lur and Assyrian.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Avestan-is an East Iranian language known only from its use as the language of Zoroastrian scripture.

Talysh close in region to Gilaki, Lur and Assyrian communities.

I do not know how reliable this video is however some interesting word comparisons between Talysh and Aveston.

"The Talysh and Avestan language" 30 seconds into video, is a list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

Talysh-Bra/Avesta-Bratar/German- Bruder/English-Brother
Talysh-Marde/Avesta-Mor/Old French- Mort/Latin-Mortuus[Mor]-English- Die
Talysh-Asp/Avesta-Aspa/Sanskrit-Aszwa/Lithuanian-Asva/English-Horse
Talysh-Ma/Avesta-Matar/Latin-Mater/Greek-Meter/Sanskrit-Matar/German- Mutter
Talysh-Nom/Avesta-Naman/English-Name
Talysh-Penc/Avesta-Pancan/Punjabi-Punj/Engilsh- Five
Talsyh-Hast/Avest-Astan/Punjabi-Aatdh/German-Acht/English-Eight
Talysh-Nav/Avesta-Navan/Punjabi-Naun/German-Neun/English-Nine



« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 12:43:30 PM by acekon » Logged

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Humanist
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« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2012, 09:44:26 AM »

The Assyrian modal (R-L584) appears more closely related to modal haplotypes in the west (e.g. Alawites), rather than NW Iran.

Furthermore, if you wish to learn about our language, I would recommend you refer to the opinions of learned individuals, such as those at the North Eastern Neo-Aramaic Database Project, University of Cambridge.  It is led by Dr. Geoffrey Khan.

Bits from Cambridge Professor Geoffrey Khan's lecture at Northwestern University, from May 2012, on the Assyrian-Aramaic vernacular of today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9kpOHmt4Pg
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 09:46:13 AM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »

The Assyrian modal (R-L584) appears more closely related to modal haplotypes in the west (e.g. Alawites), rather than NW Iran....

How do we know if this similarity in modals indicates the R1b-L584 people are more closely related to western R1b (L11) people or if this is just random convergence? Maybe we can't tell, but do you have any clues?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
acekon
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« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2012, 11:28:24 AM »

IMO it is very difficult to assign L584 to any group. The former Assyrian language/region, are also homelands of older or similar age groups. For example, the borders were in flux,and as Dr. Geoffrey Khan points out bilinguilism was practiced.

Akkadian-Afroasiatic
Sumerian-Isolate
Aramaic-Afroasiatic
Mede-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian
Avestan-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian
Armenian-Indo-European

All areas with potential for L584.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 11:30:51 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2012, 09:33:07 PM »

A Sealed Double Cremation at Middle Assyrian Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria

Peter Akkermans & E. Smits (2008)

In: D. Bonatz, R.M. Czichon & F.J. Kreppner (eds.) Fundstellen – Gesammelte Schriften zur Archäologie und Geschichte Altvorderasiens ad honorem Hartmut Kühne. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag (2008), pp. 251-261.

Quote
Recent excavation at Tell Sabi Abyad in Syria has exposed a very substantial part of a Middle Assyrian fortified farmstead or dunnu, dated ca. 1225-1120 BCE. From its foundation early in the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I, the dunnu was maintained by a number of high-ranking officials affiliated with the Assyrian royal house and each bearing the titles of “grand vizier” and “king of Ḫanigalbat”: successively, Aššur-iddin, Šulmānu-mušabši and Ilī-padâ.

An extraordinarily rich cremation which dates somewhere between 1180-1140 BCE (building level 4) and which must be associated with the local administration at the site. So far, 38 graves have been uncovered in the dunnu at Tell Sabi Abyad, of which 29 were inhumations and nine were cremations.

The cylinder-seal impression* on the obverse of the sealing shows a galloping, winged horse followed by a foal (fig. 1), produced in the typical Middle Assyrian iconographic style of the 12th century BCE (see e.g. Matthews 1990, 1992).

Special attention is drawn to the presence of the (burnt) third phalange of a lion, which points to the inclusion of a lion-skin cloak on the funeral pyre. The dead may either have rested upon the skin or it may have covered them as a shroud. This find recalls the occurrence of bear claws in Neolithic cremation graves in northwestern Europe (see e.g. Parker Pearson 1999: 7; Smits 2000).

The richness of finds in this grave is remarkable, when taking into account that almost all other cremations at Tell Sabi Abyad contained either simply a small number of beads or no goods at all (there is only one other cremation with a comparable inventory; cf. Akkermans/Wiggermann, in print). Before it was stated that this cremation contained the burnt remains of two young adults – a man and a woman. Both persons must have died at more or less the same time and both were subsequently cremated and buried together. In view of their sex and age, it is tempting to consider them as spouses, tied to each other both in the terrestrial world and in the hereafter. Although the dead remain unknown to us, they undeniably must have been people of status and wealth. Moreover, the clay sealing with its typical Middle Assyrian representation suggests that they (or their mourners who carried out the burial) were affiliated with the Assyrian administration at Tell Sabi Abyad. Further proof in this respect is provided by the location of the grave in the immediate vicinity of the buildings of the living – it is unlikely that any outsiders to the local community were allowed to bury their dead here. The burial vessel, too, is entirely of Middle Assyrian style and origin in terms of shape and finish, as is the jewellery found in it (see e.g. Ohuma/Numoto 2001). In short, there can be no doubt that both the dead and their mourners were part of the local community at Tell Sabi Abyad, the more so if we take into account the sheer magnitude and obvious visibility of the practice of cremation: The burning and burial were not individual acts but involved the entire community. Somewhere on the site there must have been a large funeral pyre, on which the deceased were placed together, fully dressed and equipped with adornments and covered by a lion-skin cloak. A ram was slaughtered for the occasion and its meat was consumed by the mourners either shortly before or during the fire; the remains were thrown into the flames. After the corpses had been burnt, the remains selected for burial from the surface of the extinguished pyre were stored in an urn which was subsequently covered and sealed and finally buried in a specific area very close to the houses of the living.

* "Fig. 1...[R]econstruction of the seal impression."

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction_.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fortress of Ili-pada.
Middle Assyrian architecture at Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria
Peter M.M.G. Akkermans (2006)

In: P. Butterlin, M. Lebeau, J.-Y. Monchambert, J. Montero & B. Muller (eds.), Les espaces Syro-Mésopotamiens. Dimensions de l’expérience humaine au Proche-Orient ancien. Turnhout: Brepols (2006), pp. 201-211.

Quote
The fortress had many faces...: it was a military outpost on the western frontier of Assyria; it was an administrative center in control of the westernmost province of the kingdom; and it provided custom facilities on the route from Carchemish to the Assyrian capital of Assur.

However, it was not only the interests of the Assyrian state but also the private interests of the Assyrian officials themselves that were served at Sabi Abyad. For much of its lifetime, the fortress was in the hands of Ili-pada*, grand vizier of Assyria, viceroy of Hanigalbat, member of one of the most prominent lineages of Assyria, and related to the royal family. The stronghold was Ili-pada's rural estate, used by him for the agricultural exploitation of many dozens of square kilometres in the Balikh valley and elsewhere. The occurrence of texts belonging to Assur-iddin, Ili-pada's father and likewise grand vizier, suggests that the estate had been family property for a long time; it may have served as the family's power base in the province, which presented them with the revenues to finance their private court in the capital and to support their political ambitions.

*

Wikipedia :

Quote
Two of his [Ili-pada] sons were to follow him in attaining high office. Mardukija became governor of Katmuḫi and served his term as limmu early, during the reign of Aššur-dan I, his nephew and Ilī-padâ’s grandson. Ninurta-apal-Ekur, after a period stationed in Babylonia, presumably on official business, was to triumph in his campaign to succeed Enlil-kudurri-usur as Assyrian King, thereby establishing a royal line that endured until at least the eighth century.

The Assyrian King's list, beginning with Ili-pada's son, mentioned above:

Ninurta-apal-Ekur (1182 BCE to 1180 BCE) --> Ashur-dan I --> Ninurta-tukultī-Aššur --> Mutakkil-Nusku --> Ashur-resh-ishi I --> Tiglath-Pileser I --> Asharid-apal-Ekur --> Assur-bel-kala --> Eriba-Adad II --> Shamshi-Adad IV --> Ashurnasirpal I --> Shalmaneser II --> Ashur-nirari IV --> Ashur-rabi II --> Ashur-resh-ishi II --> Tiglath-Pileser II --> Ashur-dan II --> Adad-nirari II --> Tukulti-Ninurta II --> Ashurnasirpal II --> Shalmaneser III --> Shamshi-Adad V --> Adad-nirari III --> Shalmaneser IV --> Ashur-dan III --> Ashur-nirari V (755 BCE to 745 BCE). The line is broken by Tiglath-Pileser III.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Archaeology of Death and Burial (1999)
by Mike Parker Pearson

page 7

I do not know why the author in the Assyrian Cremations article is referring to the European bear claws as Neolithic. Unless it is the "Smits" source one must refer to.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/pearson_cremation_.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps of no connection:

Wikipedia on Hercules:

Quote
To kill the Nemean lion
The Nemean lion was a large ferocious monster with a hide that could not be pierced by any weapon.[5] This made it near impossible to kill, but Hercules managed to strangle the monster with his bare hands, using his unusual strength. After he had strangled the lion, he used one of its claws to skin the monster and he wore the hide, which retained its magical properties, until his death.


Please Note: Mentioning similarities does not necessarily equate to an east to west transmission.


A bit of truth in the myths of old? 

Source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

Herodotus, The Histories
A. D. Godley, Ed.

1.7

Quote
Now the sovereign power that belonged to the descendants of Heracles fell to the family of Croesus, called the Mermnadae, in the following way.  Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, was the ruler of Sardis; he was descended from Alcaeus, son of Heracles; Agron son of Ninus, son of Belus, son of Alcaeus, was the first Heraclid king of Sardis and Candaules son of Myrsus was the last.  The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus, son of Atys, from whom this whole Lydian district got its name; before that it was called the land of the Meii.  The Heraclidae, descendants of Heracles and a female slave of Iardanus, received the sovereignty from these and held it, because of an oracle; and they ruled for twenty-two generations, or five hundred and five years, son succeeding father, down to Candaules son of Myrsus.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.maicar.com/GML/HERACLIDES.html

Agron 2. Agron 2 is said to be the first of the HERACLIDES to become king of Sardes (Lydia) (see also Croesus). He is son of Ninus, the Assyrian who founded Nineveh. Ninus was son of Belus 3, son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 and Omphale (Hdt.1.7).

Belus 3. Son of Alcaeus 6, son of Heracles 1 & Omphale. Belus 3, who is counted among the HERACLIDES, is also called father of Ninus, the founder of Nineveh and husband of Semiramis (see also Croesus) (Hdt.1.7).

Ninus. Son of Belus 3. Father of Agron 2. King of Assyria and founder of Nineveh. He was murdered by his wife Semiramis, founder and Queen of Babylonia (see also Croesus) (Dio.2.7.1; Hdt.1.7; Hyg.Fab.240; Ov.Met.4.88; Strab.2.1.31).


Clash of the Gods: Hercules
http://youtu.be/NiijdeuvJhE
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