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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2012, 10:13:22 AM »


Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43   19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

I think this is another bit of evidence that R1b was more easterly and northerly that the Balkans or Anatolia.  Add to the fact that R1b's structure is suggestive of a lack of farming style demographic expansion the Balkans and Anatolia again do not really fit as they were early farming areas (very early in Anatolia).  I think its all begining to point to R1b being immediate westerly neighbours of R1a on the steppes.  That is the vvery area that might have been squeezed between Cucuteni-Trypole (non-R1b) farmers pushing in from the west and the other steppes peoples (R1a?) to the east.  Maybe R1b was a Bug-Dneister haplogroup.  The west end of the steppes has a terribly complex later  history.  Regardless of the specifcs it does look to me from the Iranian aspect that R1b was a factor in the steppes.  It probably clealry wasnt as simple as R1b being the western steppes groups and R1a the eastern steppes given the R1a in corded ware and R1b very closeby at the same time in eastern Germany but some sort of pattern with more R1b in the west and R1a in the east and a mixed area would make a lot of sense.

I think if the variance dating of R1b phlogeny is accepted (which I admit I was a dounting Thomas about for a long time) then R1b was not in the farming zone in Europe (or perhaps only marginally so when a few lineages strayed into the zone) until 3000BC.  I think if the variance dating of the phylogeny of R1b is true then there is absolutely no chance that it originated in Mesopotamia, Anatolia or in the Balkans Neolithic.  The evidenced is piling up (and I admit its surprised me) but no point in denying that it suggests R1b's roots were in an area outside the early farming zone and indeed until very late.   The steppes are looking very very likely now when all the new evidence is weighed up.  If their first intrusions from the steppes were into the Caucuses, western Anatolia, Romania etc as hinted at by variance then


Actually it does look as simple as R1b in the Western Steepe (if that) and R1a in the Eastern steepe. The lack of M269 Eastern steepe and Central Asia is very telling. This is the first I ever heard that Tripoyle didn't have R1b.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 10:23:50 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
Humanist
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« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2012, 08:03:40 PM »

Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

A member at another forum (Lemminkäinen) prepared the following list, based on data generated by Polako, for his Eurogenes project.  The program was discussed by Dienekes as well, here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/spatial-ancestry-analysis-yang-et-al.html

Eurogenes link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/06/genetic-map-of-west-eurasia-with.html

Link to post referred to above, and quoted below: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=889235&postcount=2976

"Average distances between halves per population"

Chuvash   0,913242501
PT   0,544981813
Vologda   0,486649805
CE   0,469433174
ES   0,448778325
HU   0,446447909
Erzya   0,427333165
TR   0,391871913
RU   0,382262504
BG   0,373559831
Moksha   0,355663052
FI   0,342397502
RO   0,312567546
SE   0,312296681
FR   0,307627199
DE   0,306954583
AJ   0,303620364
Kent   0,288509654
BE   0,278592323
UA   0,268092195
UK   0,236769741
NL   0,225852279
Cornwall   0,203060592
DK   0,200171343
IE   0,185305285
TS   0,184720844
IT   0,177121845
Orcadia   0,165135997
PL   0,162500614
NO   0,149995288
NE   0,147649865
BY   0,138516111
GR   0,13569179
LI   0,081864024
EE   0,038299188
AS   0,018202091 <-- Assyrians


This is how Polako explained the "halves" :

Quote
The reason for this is that SPA offers a mode in which it assumes samples are of mixed ancestry, and thus can divide their genomes into two halves (represented by two sets of PC coordinates). One way to look at it is that each half represents a parent, but that would only be accurate for people who really are of mixed origin, with their parents coming from two clearly distinct groups in terms of genetic structure. So it's probably better to say that SPA turns each of the genomes into two of the most highly differentiated versions possible, across the first two dimensions. Also, as far as I can see, the program can come up with different solutions in different runs for the same person. Some of these solutions look like they're based on very ancient admixtures, and others more recent. In any case, I think this is an excellent way to show the dichotomy in our genetic data, even if we're not mixed.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 09:22:41 PM by Humanist » Logged

intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2012, 12:35:16 AM »

Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

A member at another forum (Lemminkäinen) prepared the following list, based on data generated by Polako, for his Eurogenes project.  The program was discussed by Dienekes as well, here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/05/spatial-ancestry-analysis-yang-et-al.html

Eurogenes link: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/06/genetic-map-of-west-eurasia-with.html

Link to post referred to above, and quoted below: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=889235&postcount=2976

"Average distances between halves per population"

Chuvash   0,913242501
PT   0,544981813
Vologda   0,486649805
CE   0,469433174
ES   0,448778325
HU   0,446447909
Erzya   0,427333165
TR   0,391871913
RU   0,382262504
BG   0,373559831
Moksha   0,355663052
FI   0,342397502
RO   0,312567546
SE   0,312296681
FR   0,307627199
DE   0,306954583
AJ   0,303620364
Kent   0,288509654
BE   0,278592323
UA   0,268092195
UK   0,236769741
NL   0,225852279
Cornwall   0,203060592
DK   0,200171343
IE   0,185305285
TS   0,184720844
IT   0,177121845
Orcadia   0,165135997
PL   0,162500614
NO   0,149995288
NE   0,147649865
BY   0,138516111
GR   0,13569179
LI   0,081864024
EE   0,038299188
AS   0,018202091 <-- Assyrians


This is how Polako explained the "halves" :

Quote
The reason for this is that SPA offers a mode in which it assumes samples are of mixed ancestry, and thus can divide their genomes into two halves (represented by two sets of PC coordinates). One way to look at it is that each half represents a parent, but that would only be accurate for people who really are of mixed origin, with their parents coming from two clearly distinct groups in terms of genetic structure. So it's probably better to say that SPA turns each of the genomes into two of the most highly differentiated versions possible, across the first two dimensions. Also, as far as I can see, the program can come up with different solutions in different runs for the same person. Some of these solutions look like they're based on very ancient admixtures, and others more recent. In any case, I think this is an excellent way to show the dichotomy in our genetic data, even if we're not mixed.

Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians? Iranian R1b looks quite different from Assyrian/Armenian R1b. Although I don't know why European R1bs among Assyrians would be concentrated in Iranian Assyrians especially since they migrated from somewhere else and should be found among the sourve population in Iraq.
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2012, 04:24:28 PM »

Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

Humanist, who is the person you are quoting and from what source?

.. Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians? Iranian R1b looks quite different from Assyrian/Armenian R1b. Although I don't know why European R1bs among Assyrians would be concentrated in Iranian Assyrians especially since they migrated from somewhere else and should be found among the sourve population in Iraq.

It could be just a coincidence of STR mutations (convergence) that there are European-like (assume we mean WAMH) R1b folks among the Assyrians.   

There is another explanation. I guess, we should not assume too much and consider that may be we have our terminology turned around.  Rather than saying the Assyrian haplotypes look European, perhaps we should say we see a lot of Assyrian haplotypes plastered all over Western Europe?   
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 04:31:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2012, 04:34:45 PM »

The great majority of Assyrians tested have been "Nestorians."  The "Nestorians" lived, historically, in the areas from the Tigris to points east, toward the Iranian border.  Arbil is a very significant part of the story, I believe.   The so-called Assyrian triangle: Assur-Arbil-Nineveh.

Some bits on Arbil, if you wish to read a bit about its history.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5479/

Quote
Erbil Citadel Town, which is situated dramatically on top of an artificial, 32-meters high earthen mound, and visually dominating the expansive modern city of Erbil, is believed to have been in continuous existence for 7000 years or even more. Thus, it may be regarded as the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the world.  Because of its past fortifications and steeply inclined mound, which is at some locations nearly 45 degrees, it has managed to survive numerous sieges and fierce attacks.  The existing fabric, however, goes back to several hundred years but is, nevertheless, of extreme vernacular architectural and urban interest, not only for Iraq but also for humanity at large.

Wikipedia:

Quote
The name Erbil was mentioned in Sumerian holy writings (c. 2000 BC) as Urbilum, Urbelum or Urbillum,[6] and it may be Sumerian in origin. It is thought to originate from Sumerian UR (city) + BELA (high) meaning the city located in the upper area. The initial ar element also appears in a number of Hurrian place names.

Quote
An inscription found in Egypt written by Arsames describes a few Assyrian cities whom obtained administrative centres during Achaemenid rule:[20]

Lair: Assyrian Lahiru (Eski Kifri), by the Diyala Valley
Arzuhina: Tell Chemchemal, 40 kilometers east of Kirkuk
Arbela
Halsu: Location unknown
Matalubash: Assyrian Ubaše (Tell Huwaish), 20 kilometers north of ancient city of Assur


Quote
Adiabene (from the Ancient Greek Ἀδιαβηνή, Adiabene, itself derived from Classical Syriac: ܚܕܝܐܒ‎, Ḥaḏy’aḇ or Ḥḏay’aḇ, Old Persian/Armenian: Nodshirakan[1]) was an ancient kingdom in Assyria,[2][3][4][5] with its capital at Arbela (modern-day Arbil, Iraq). Its rulers converted to Judaism from Ashurism in the 1st century.[6] Queen Helena of Adiabene (known in Jewish sources as Heleni HaMalka) moved to Jerusalem where she built palaces for herself and her sons, Izates bar Monobaz and Monobaz II at the northern part of the city of David, south of the Temple Mount. According to the Talmud, both Helena and Monbaz donated large funds for the Temple of Jerusalem.

Quote
Arbela was an early center of the Syriac Christianity. By 100 AD there was a bishop seated in the city. As many modern Assyrians use Biblical (including Jewish) names, most of the early bishops had Jewish/Biblical names, which does not suggest that many of the early Christians in this city were converts from Judaism.[16] It served as the seat of a Metropolitan of the Assyrian Church of the East. From the city's Christian period come many church fathers and well-known authors in Syriac. The city's Aramaic-speaking Assyrian population remained significant in size until destruction of the city by the forces of Timur in 1397.

Quote
Adiabene (Syriac: Hadyab ܚܕܝܐܒ) was a metropolitan province of the Church of the East between the 5th and 14th centuries, with more than fifteen known suffragan dioceses at different periods in its history. Although the name Hadyab normally connoted the region around Erbil and Mosul, the boundaries of the East Syrian metropolitan province went well beyond the Erbil and Mosul districts. Its known suffragan dioceses included Beth Bgash (the Hakkari region of eastern Turkey) and Adarbaigan (the Ganzak district, to the southeast of Lake Urmi), well to the east of Adiabene proper.

I am one of these "Nestorians" from Iran.   My Dodecad values:

21.1   Gedrosia
0   Siberian
0   Northwest_African
0   Southeast_Asian
9.1   Atlantic_Med
0   North_European
0.2   South_Asian
0   East_African
18.4   Southwest_Asian
0.5   East_Asian
50.6   Caucasus
0   Sub_Saharan


  
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 04:37:06 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2012, 04:36:15 PM »

Tying autosomal DNA with Y chromosome data is tricky business.  I acknowledge that.  However, when academics state the following, the autosomal data (in addition to higher resolution Y chromosome data) can be of definite value:

Quote
Another half of the Assyrian hap-lotypes in the Project, mostly from Iran, have a slightly mutated “classical” European R1b1a2 base haplotype (with DYS464 = 15 15 17 17), and a common ancestor of 850 ± 360 ybp calcu-lated from the first 12 markers, and 1100 ± 280 ybp from the first 37 markers. This R1b evidence is clearly a relatively recent event in Assyrian population, brought from Europe.

Humanist, who is the person you are quoting and from what source? 

Hi Mike.  It is from Klyosov's "Arbins" paper.
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« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2012, 05:31:30 PM »


Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2012, 07:35:16 PM »


Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      


I wonder why that is. Any idea?

What about samples from Iranian Azerbaijan a region which apparently Azeris, Kurds, Assyrians and Armenians claims as their own. I wonder which claim is correct.
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« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2012, 09:07:30 PM »


Am I right in stating that those haplotypes are not shared with ethnic Iranian or Armenians and belong mainly to Assyrians?

Yes, from the samples I have seen, I believe that it is not incorrect to state that.  The one exception might be SW Iran, by the Iraq border.  Among the Bakhtiari.  There is a man on 23andMe who is from Khuzestan and presumed R-L584.  From the haplotypes reported in Roewer et al., the Iranian minority haplotypes most similar to the Assyrian modal were two from the Bakhtiari (FTDNA standard 1-12, excluding 426 and 388). 

Haplotypes from Roewer et al. wth the DYS389i-DYS392-DYS389ii motif 14-13-30 (not necessarily R-M269):


Code:
ht 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389I 392 389II
151 12 24 14 11 11 14 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
211 13 24 15 10 11 13 xx xx 11 14 13 30 Bakhtiari SW Iran
150 12 24 14 10 12 15 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
213 12 25 15 10 12 12 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Mazandarani N Iran
152 12 24 14 11 12 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 N Talysh NW Iran
148 12 23 14 11 11 15 xx xx 12 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
239 13 24 16 11 12 13 xx xx 13 14 13 30 Rashti NW Iran
ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30
      


I wonder why that is. Any idea?

What about samples from Iranian Azerbaijan a region which apparently Azeris, Kurds, Assyrians and Armenians claims as their own. I wonder which claim is correct.

Assyrians are from N Mesopotamia.  Not Azerbaijan.  We have lived in other areas, including NW Iran, but both Zoroastrianism and Islam were not very accepting of Christian proselytism.

Wikipedia:

Quote
When the Sassanid dynasty came into power in 228 CE, they aggressively promoted the Zurvanite form of Zoroastrianism and, in some cases, persecuted Christians.[10] When the Sassanids captured territory, they often built fire temples there to promote their religion. After Constantine, the Sassanids were suspicious of Christians, not least because of their perceived ties to the Christian Roman Empire. As such the Persian Church (the Church of the East) officially broke with Roman Christianity, and was tolerated and even sometimes favored by the Sassanids.

A form of Zoroastrianism was also prominent in the pre-Christian Caucasus region (especially modern-day Azerbaijan). During the periods of their suzerainty over the Caucasus, the Sassanids made attempts to promote the religion there as well.
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« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2012, 09:45:50 PM »

A unique modal at loci DYF406S1 and DYS511 for R-L584:

406   511      
11   11   R-L584
         
10   11   R-P25*   
11   10   R-M269*   
10   11   R-L23   
10   10   R-L51*   
10   10   R-L11*   
10   10   R-U106*   
10   10   R-L48*   
10   10   R-P312   
10   10   R-Z196   
10   10   R-U152 / S28   
10   10   R-L2   
10   10   R-L21   
10   10   R-M222*   
11   10   R-L513*   
10   10   R-L176.2*   
10   10   R-SRY2627*   
10   10   R-SRY2627?      
            
            
Sources:
1.ht35 project
2.http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Y-DNA_modal_haplotypes_R1b.html    (may not be current).

« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 09:49:19 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2012, 10:28:50 AM »

(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Much credit to Maliclavelli who has pointed out the inconsistencies in the Assyrian/Iraqi R1b line. Some have proposed that the R1b's are really Armenians, which really looks to be the case. A.K has demonstrated his ideas also, showing they do not come from Levant. There are 20 groupings in Assyrian project, including R1b.

www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

It has been almost 2 years since this thread started. Since then we have learned L584.  Are Iraqi L584+ or L584-? Are Iraqi Jew's L584+ or L584-?
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YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Humanist
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« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2012, 07:12:01 PM »

(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

Much credit to Maliclavelli who has pointed out the inconsistencies in the Assyrian/Iraqi R1b line. Some have proposed that the R1b's are really Armenians, which really looks to be the case.

We are Armenians, Silesian?   You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, my friend, but I find that you feel that way is a bit disappointing, given all of our discussions.   I ask that you kindly answer the following.   Where is the Armenian Indo-European stratum in our vernacular (3)?  Where are the fastIBD segments, if we received our lines from Armenians in the relatively recent past (2)?  Why did Professor Yepiskoposyan state the following, when he examined the Y-DNA lines of Kurds, Armenians, and Assyrians (1)?

1.

Y chromosome diversity in Kurds and Assyrians living in Armenia
Yepiskoposyan et al 2002

734 ethnic Armenian, 196 Kurd and 106 Assyrian men were sampled in Armenia. DNA was extracted from buccal swab and typed for six STR...

Quote
Overall, Assyrians and Kurds appear to be genetically distinct from the general Armenian population, with Fst values suggesting that Assyrians are the most differentiated group from all Armenian regional populations and from Kurds.


2.

Dienekes' most recent (a few months back) fastIBD Z-scores for "Nestorian" Assyrians:

Asy   5.58
Krd   0.09
Arm   0.09
Cyp   0.04
Geo   -0.09
Trk   -0.11
Sic   -0.16
Grk   -0.18
Sit   -0.21
Srb   -0.28
CIT   -0.30
Oit   -0.30
Tus   -0.30
Rom   -0.34
Nit   -0.35
Bul   -0.43

These are the Armenian average and median Z-scores with Assyrian_D:

0.52   (Armenian Average with Assyrian_D)
0.48   (Armenian Median with Assyrian_D)
----------------------------------------------------------

And another neighboring population.

The same for the Kurds. Based on the values for the eight identified Kurds:

Kurds w/ Assyrian_D
0.42   (Average)
0.40   (Median)

Iraq Kurd only   
0.45   (Average)
0.62   (Median)

3.

A
Cambridge Professor of Semitic Philology Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar."

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

B
Again, Prof. Geoffrey Khan.

Quote
[M]y own conclusions concerning the historical background of the language spoken by the Assyrian communities today is that it is not a direct descendant of the earlier literary forms of Aramaic, such as Syriac. Rather it is a descendant of a vernacular language that was spoken in the Mesopotamian area. This vernacular is related to the literary forms of Aramaic but has also been influenced by other languages, which include, in the ancient period, the spoken ancient Assyrian [Akkadian]. In later periods it has come under increasing influence of non-Semitic languages, especially Kurdish.

Judging by the core morphology of the dialects spoken by Assyrian Christians, the earlier vernacular from which they are historically derived would be classified by most scholars as a variety of Aramaic. The issue, however, is that this was not like any variety of Aramaic that has survived in literary texts, such as Syriac.

C
Once more, Khan:

Quote
In sum, the evidence adduced above demonstrates that the dialects of Modern Assyrian are unlikely to be direct descendants of the literary Syriac language, although they are undoubtedly related to it. Rather they existed side-by-side with it for centuries. Some of the features of the modern spoken dialects that differ from literary Syriac can be shown to have emerged at a much earlier period by the fact that they occasionally surface in written texts by a process of linguistic interference. Some features of morphology, moreover, are typologically more archaic than the corresponding features in Syriac. Likewise, some lexical items of the modern dialects are not attested in Syriac but have roots that can be traced to antiquity in the Akkadian language.

D

Krotkoff, Georg, 1985, ‘Studies in Neo-Aramaic Lexicology’, in A. Kort and S. Morschauser, Biblical and Related Studies Presented to Samuel Iwry, Winona Lake, pp.123-134.

(Diacritical marks do not appear.)

Quote
The extraordinary tenacity of agricultural terminology is illustrated by the two terms mara 'spade, hoe' and rusta 'shovel, spade.' The former has a well documented history: Sumerian mar, Akkadian marru...

This term [missara] can be traced through older Aramaic mesara to Akkadian musarum, where it is most likely the reflect of Sumerian mu-sar 'garden.' The semantic and phonetic stability of this lexeme is remarkable...

Eastern Neo-Aramaic has been treated as a change-of-life baby of classical Syriac, an attitude based on the impression provided by the heavy overlay of OS [Syriac Liturgical tongue] in the missionary literature. It is, however, important to realize that Aramaic of the Targum and the Talmud is equally important for the elucidation of lexical problems of NA. Structurally, NA has achieved its own independent status, but the elements which are now part of its structure derive from different areas in time and space. Some features belong to immediately preceding periods of the history of the language, while others are of great antiquity. This is very obvious in the vocabulary, but applies also to structural elements. As a case in point, the infinite pattern of Akkadian (palaxu) has experienced a renaissance in NA (plaxa), bypassing the intermediate stages of Aramaic.

E

A New Attempt at Reconstructing Proto-Aramaic

Part II (2011)

Sergey Loesov

Russian State University for the Humanities, Moscow

The etymology of the -ē suffix

Quote
How does this evidence square with our ideas about the origin of the -ē suffix? There is no consensus about its etymology, except that it was not the masculine-plural-definite nominal ending in Proto-Aramaic (save perhaps for the nisba nouns). Three theories have been enjoying support since the late 19th century: 1) *-ayyāʔ > -ē; 2) generalization of the -ē that since prehistoric times had been used to the right of the nisba āy- in the whole of Aramaic; 3) borrowing of the Assyrian [Akkadian] masculine plural ending -ē.

Theory (1), being the weakest claim, is the most appealing one, but it has no phonological justification. A shift ayyā > -ē is attested nowhere in historical Aramaic, and the last-syllable stress makes it improbable in prehistoric times as well (Rosenthal 1936:76 fn.6, pace Nöldeke 1904 and Cantineau 1931).

Theory (2) is based on the assumption that kaŝdāyē < *kaŝdāyayyā should be “a natural Aramaic development, a simplification of the overly cumbersome *-ayayyâ” (Kaufman 1974:128 fn. 58). Thus this theory presupposes two unexplained (and to my mind improbable) developments: the ad hoc contraction -ayyā > -ē in this particular surrounding and the subsequent generalization of -ē to combine with all the relevant nominal bases.

Theory (3), shared by the present writer, is a strong claim, therefore it requires typological and historical justifications. The borrowing hypothesis will look more plausible if we relate it to the fact that the morpheme in question (i.e., the postpositive article of Proto-Aramaic) was going to forfeit its pristine discourse function in the whole of Middle Eastern Aramaic. It is natural to ask whether this shared loss had its beginnings in the immediate common ancestor of the Eastern Aramaic languages.

Aramaic (both Old and Middle) has two productive derivational morphemes almost certainly borrowed from Akkadian: the nominal abstract suffix -ū(t) and the causative verbal prefix š-/s-. The -ū(t) suffix is highly expansive, to the degree of becoming “parasitisch” (Barth 1894:415), while š-/s- is hardly attested with more than a dozen Aramaic roots (cf. Loesov 2009:490 f., a review of data gleaned from reference tools). Given this evidence and the above typological considerations, the borrowing of the plural nominal ending -ē from Akkadian into Proto-Eastern-Aramaic does not look as improbable as it would seem on first sight.


Based on the totality of the data, this is my current opinion regarding Assyrian R-L23:

The relatively close relationship observed between Assyrians and the Armenians of Karabakh and Syunik, in my opinion, represents the shared ancient substratum of both people. A substratum dating to before northern Mesopotamia was “Semitized” by Akkadians, and other Semitic-speaking peoples (e.g. Amorites), in the mid to late 3rd millennium BCE, or a substratum beginning with the Middle Assyrian period, following Mitanni domination of Assur. A substratum that is best represented, in my opinion, by the R-M269 lineage, and the Hurrian/Subarian people.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 07:40:00 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2012, 09:55:14 PM »

Additional support for my claim, in opposition to the suggestion that Assyrians (in particular, "Nestorians" carrying R-L23) are Armenians.  I ask that if people are going to make claims, they support them with sufficient genetic, linguistic, cultural, and other evidence.  

I do not believe many people here would appreciate the suggestion, without sufficient evidence to argue such a claim, that they were recently converted members of another ethnicity.  Look at the discussions on the various fora on the question of the "Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain," for instance.  

(by no means exhaustive)

GENETIC

1.

Quote
Variation of a VNTR in the DAT1 gene in seven ethnic groups of the Middle East was used to infer the history and affinities of these groups. The populations consisted of Assyrian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Armenian, Turkmen, and Arab peoples of Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait. Three hundred forty subjects from these seven ethnic groups were screened for DAT1. DAT1 VNTR genotyping showed 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 alleles in the samples. Analysis of these data revealed differentiation and relationship among the populations. In this region, which covers an area of 2-2.5 million km^sup 2^, the influence of geography and especially of linguistic characteristics has had potentially major effects on differentiation. Religion also has played a major role in imposing restrictions on some ethnic groups, who as a consequence have maintained their community. Overall, these ethnic groups showed greater heterogeneity compared to other populations.

The relationship probability was lowest between Assyrians and other communities. Endogamy was found to be high for this population through determination of the heterogeneity coefficient (+0,6867), Our study supports earlier findings indicating the relatively closed nature of the Assyrian community as a whole, which as a result of their religious and cultural traditions, have had little intermixture with other populations.

"Variation of DAT1 VNTR alleles and genotypes among old ethnic groups in Mesopotamia to the Oxus region"

Banoei et al., Human Biology. February 2008, v. 80, no, I, pp. 73-81.

2.

Quote
Semitic populations (Assyrians and Syrians) significantly differ from each other according to both indices.

A third feature is that the Semitic populations (Assyrians and Syrians) are very distinct from each other according to both axes. This difference supported also by other methods of comparison points out the weak genetic affinity between the two populations with different historical destinies.

When interpreting genetic results we need to take into account historical and archaeological data (e.g., in case of Assyrians and Syrians, who are Semitic speaking populations with different historical background).

PC plot from the above study: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/PC_YEPISKOPOSIAN2.jpg

"Genetic Testing of Language Replacement Hypothesis in Southwest Asia"

Yepiskoposian et al., Iran and the Caucasus, Volume 10, Number 2, 2006, pp. 191-208(18)

3.

MDS plot: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/lash_iran.jpg

"Y chromosome diversity among the Iranian religious groups: A reservoir of genetic variation."

Lashgary et al.,  Ann Hum Biol. 2011 May;38(3):364-71. Epub 2011 Feb 18.

4.

Dodecad: fastIBD analysis of Afroasiatic groups (Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Somalis, Amharas, etc.)

Dienekes:
Quote
I can't comment on all 45 clusters, so I'll just limit myself to the ones that are significantly represented among Project participants: 1. Ashkenazi, 4. Assyrian/Mandaean, 6. Somali, 7. Moroccan, 8. Algerian/Tunisian, 9. Sephardic, 10. Morocco Jews, 11. Iran/Iraq Jews, 12. Non-Jewish Ethiopians, 13. Saudi, 14. Arab #1, 15. Arab #2, 16. Egyptian

LINGUISTIC/OTHER

5.

Quote
Mandaic inherited abundantly phonetic, grammatical, and lexicographic features from Akkadian (Late Babylonian) that point to the fact that the Mandaeans’ origin cannot have been anywhere else than in Mesopotamia (Kaufman, 1974, pp. 163-64; Müller-Kessler, 2004).

In the area of loanwords, Mandaic inherited from Akkadian an abundance of termini technici concerning religion, but also many words in other areas. Despite the limitation in its attested lexicon, due to the loss of texts, Mandaic shows more Akkadian borrowings than any other Aramaic dialect. The Mandaean gnostic sect recruited from a Babylonian population, and a stock of Akkadian words had belonged to the idiom of that geographical area for some centuries. Particular borrowings in Mandaic are: priest classes, cult, divination, and magic terms: brʾyʾ < bartū “diviner,” zʾbʾ 2 “esoteric priests,” gynyʾ “sacrifice,” ʿkwrʾ < ekurru “temple,” prykʾ < parakku “altar, shrine,” pyšrʾ < pišru “dissolving of a magic bond,” ʾšp < ašāpu “to bewitch,” šʾptʾ < šiptu “incantation”; terms concerning the gnostic doctrine and cult: gynyʾ < ginû “sanctuaries,” zywʾ < zīmu “brilliance,” nʾndbyʾ < nindabû “offering,” nʾṣwrʾyʾ “watcher of secrets,” nʾṣyrwtʾ “secrecy” < niṣirtu; architectional terms: ʾngrʾ < agāru “wall,”roof,” kšwrʾ < gušūru “beam, post”; body parts: gysʾ 2 “side”; ktʾ < qātu “hand, handle,” šʾyryʾnʾ < “vein, artery”; directions of the wind, name of winds, astronomical terms: šʾrʾ <šārū “direction of the wind,” stʾnʾ < ištānu north(wind), ywniʾ 2 <ūmu 3 “storm,” tʾlyʾ < attala “eclipse."

Dr. Christa Müller-Kessler

Originally Published: July 20, 2009

6.

Quote
Additionally, Muller-Kessler and Kwasman (2000, 164 fn. 15) see a survival of an ‘‘Akkadian magical ritual concept’’ in the sequence of eating bread, drinking water, and anointing with oil found in an incantation text, which in turn parallels the Mandaean ‘‘sacraments’’ of the ritual oil, bread, and water in the baptism ritual (Drower 1937, 114).

[Theodore] bar Konay [an Assyrian from the "Nestorian" church] demonstrates a surprising familiarity with their [Mandaean] doctrine, even including a brief extract from the Great Treasure (Pognon 1898, 245–55; Kruisheer 1993–94). Although he writes shortly after the advent of Islam, he assigns their arrival in southern Mesopotamia unambiguously to the pre-Islamic period.

Mandaeism in Antiquity and the Antiquity of Mandaeism
Charles G. Haberl
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey

Religion Compass Volume 6, Issue 5, Article first published online: 8 MAY 2012

7.

Two pages: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda1.jpg

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/manda2.jpg


Quote
This, kneaded in the hand and baked in ashes like the fatira is a roll about 4 inches long. In a recent article ('The Kaprana' in Orient and Occident l , The Gaster Anniversary Volume, London, Taylor's Foreign Press, 1937) I have pointed out the similarity of the sa [dough] to the Nestorian [Assyrian Christian] kaprana, a dough object of identical shape which plays a part in the Qurbana, and appears to be a relic of some ancient fertility and life cult. That the sa is a phallic emblem one would suspect from its form and size. The reference which puzzled Lidzbarski (Q. 107), pihla d *l shum hiia pla, obviously refers to it.

The Christian idea of a cross with an implication of blood-sacrifice is contrary to the whole Mandaean belief; indeed, this sign was not at first associated, even by the Christians, with the instrument of Christ's passion, but was a 'life' or 'sun' symbol. In the Parsi ritual meal the sign of the cross is made over the ritual meal for the dead (JJM., p. 401), and Modi suggests that it is symbolic of the four points of the compass. This idea is corroborated by the Nestorian ritual, for the priest, as he places four wafers on the paten in the form of a cross, murmurs the words, 'From East to West, from North to South'. It probably represents the journey and return of the sun, symbolizing resurrection. (See Chap. VI, note 14.)

The 'feeding of the multitude' with five loaves and fish, by the shores of the Lake of Galilee, and the meal of Acts vi. 13, seem to record ritual meals. Tertullian mentions a ritual use of milk and honey. The Agape, or love-feast of the early Christians, is still kept up in the Nestorian Church. These feasts were so much a feature of primitive Christianity that Pliny the Younger, in his Rescript to Trajan, A.D. 104, mentions them as its chief characteristic. In the Canons of Hippolytus, the agape is a 'memorial feast for the dead'. Notice breads are common to the Sraosh baj, the Christian meal just mentioned, and the present-day Nestorian qurbana, suggesting connexion with the five intercalary days.

It is likely that the Jewish Passover meal in spite of orthodox interpretation and the text now attached to it, was originally a revivification and fertility rite. The hands stretched over the bread in witness, the word fatir applied by Iraqi Jews to the masoth. and most of the details of procedure suggest this. Moreover Jewish mention of the dead (dukhrana, hashkabd) is linked in Iraq to a ritual meal eaten in memory of the deceased. This meal must include 'wheat' (i.e. bread), 'fruits of the earth', and 'fruits of trees'.

The Nestorian dukhrana with its distribution in the church of bread and other foods and of meat by the church door, its reciting of names of the dead, and the use of the kaprana (i.e. the sa [dough] or phallus) in the qurbana, is close to Mandaean ritual in many particulars. The word dukhrana is also applied to a love-feast, or public distribution of meat which follows the dukhrana in church. In this, every member of the community shares.

Preparation of the Bread

[T]he [Mandaean] bread-maker marks the 'named' loaves, the Darun proper, with three rows of three marks :

o o o
o o o
o o o

while uttering the words 'good thoughts, good words, good deeds' 'making three marks at each recital' (JJM., p. 279). (The Nestorian marking of the loaves for sacrament with similar marks is extremely close to this. I do not know whether the 'signing' of the fafiri is allied to it; it may be.)

Habshaba. Literally, 'the-first-of-the-week'. In the spoken Syriac of the Assyrians the word is pronounced as in Mandaean Hoshabba.

Each day is governed by a planet. The day is divided into two parts of twelve, twelve day-hours and twelve night-hours. Certain melki also govern the days, and hence have a planetary character, for instance, Sunday, which is governed by Shamish, is also associated with the personified Habshaba, 7 First-Day-of-the-Week, a malka who is sometimes identified with other saviour-spirits. He 'takes purified souls in his ship to Awathur and to the World of Light. The gate of the World of Light is ajar on this day and Hoshaba (Habshaba) takes the souls by means of electricity into the midst of the world of light.'

I was told that 'Hoshaba' descends into Mataratha (Purgatories) on Sunday, returning with seven Mandaean souls to the world of light. 'The revolving wheels of light whirl more swiftly on this day, thus assisting the souls in their ascent.' The story is based on the prayer for Sunday (Q., p. 184), uqarqil sMbqh^ &c., the qarqil taken as meaning revolution of a wheel.

Writings preserved by the priests enumerate the planetary aspects not only day by day but hour by hour, so that life may be conducted successfully. To quote from one:

'The Day of Habshaba. The First Hour is of Shamish. Favourable (shapir) for building a new house, going on the road, putting on a new garment, eating bread, approaching kings and governors, drinking wine, and buying and selling. The Second Hour is of Libat (Venus). Sit in thy own city. Favourable for being with thy wife, eating new bread, riding horses, visiting physicians,' &c.

Not every hour of Sunday is good, for instance, on the sixth hour of Sunday night a traveller is likely to fall amongst thieves; for Nirigh. (Mars) governs this hour, although the general aspect of the day is sunny.

Monday (Trin Habshaba) is governed by Sin ; Tuesday (Thlatha Habshaba) by Nirigh; Wednesday (Arba Habshaba) by 'Nbu; and Thursday (Hamsha Habshaba) by Bil (Bel), also by Melka Ziwa 'from the morning of Thursday till Friday noon, when Liwet has power'.Friday (Yuma d Rahatia) is the day of Libat, and Yuma d Shafta or Saturday is the day of Kiwan. Friday afternoon and night are supposed to be unlucky and under the general influence of the King of Darkness.

As with the Mandaeans, disease, pollution, transgression against taboo, and breaking of social laws necessitated purifications received at the hands of a priest. The baru and ashipu priests of Babylonian and neo-Babylonian times, like Mandaean priests, wore white.

The Tree is a common religious symbol in Mandaean books for Divine Life, and the souls of Mandaeans are not seldom represented as birds, taking refuge in the shelter of a Vine, or Tree, against the tempests of the world.

The Mandaeans of Iraq and Iran their cults, customs, magic, legends, and folklore
Lady E. S. Drower 1937

8.

Quote
I happened to come upon another Nabatean book which contained the explanation of the story of Tammuz. He called a king to serve the Seven and the Twelve, 42 and that king killed him but he returned to life after having been killed. Then the king killed him in many horrible ways but each time he returned to life. In the end he finally died. That story was indeed identical to the last with the story of Jurjis which the Christians know. The Sabians hold a memorial feast for Tammuz which they call the memorial feast of Tammuz and the Christians hold a memorial feast for Jurjis which they call the memorial feast and tadhkira of Jurjis.

The transmission of pagan material to Christianity is often obvious. The mechanisms of this transmission are also relatively clear but I cannot refrain from mentioning here that, according to al Maqdis (Bad’ IV:42), some Christians in the vicinity of Harran had adopted Harranian doctrines (madhhab). What he probably should have said, is that some Harranians had converted – sincerely or not – to Christianity, bringing along with them much of their religious lore and wisdom. Instead of weeping for Tammuz they were now weeping for St. George.

“Continuity of Pagan Religious Traditions in Tenth-Century Iraq”
JAAKKO HÄMEEN-ANTTILA
2002

Quote
In Babylonia, the month Tammuz was established in honor of the eponymous god Tammuz, who originated as a Sumerian shepherd-god, Dumuzid or Dumuzi, the consort of Inanna and, in his Akkadian form, the parallel consort of Ishtar.

A Sumerian tablet from Nippur (Ni 4486) reads:
She can make the lament for you, my Dumuzid, the lament for you, the lament, the lamentation, reach the desert — she can make it reach the house Arali; she can make it reach Bad-tibira; she can make it reach Dul-šuba; she can make it reach the shepherding country, the sheepfold of Dumuzid "O Dumuzid of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully, "O you of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully. "Lad, husband, lord, sweet as the date, [...] O Dumuzid!" she sobs, she sobs tearfully.[3]

Wikipedia

9.

Quote
If we continue to review some main aspects of the book from the sacral to the secular, we next come to various rituals and regulations. There is an interesting description of New Year's Eve rituals (Nab. Agr., 538-541) which, broadly speaking, coincides with what we know of the Harrãnian pagans down to the Islamic times, albeit differing in details, so that the description cannot have been taken from any Arabic source describing the Harrãnians but must be independent of that tradition. Likewise, there are descriptions of idols and their worshiping, communal prayers, feasts, fasts, temples and the services therein, the use of cultic music, incubation and dream oracles, and various other themes. Most of these passages are relatively short and sometimes difficult to set into any context, but in general they offer much material for study. The veneration of sacred trees receives some attention, and it seems that the word “idol” may often, in fact, refer to sacred trees, which act as mediators of divine revelation. Cultic and agricultural calendars, which we also know from Syriac tradition, are discussed in the book (e.g., Nab. Agr., 207-209).

* Nabat in Arabic refers to the non-Arabic rural population of the Near East, and especially Iraq, who spoke different Aramaic dialects.

A “NEW” SOURCE FOR LATE ANTIQUE PAGANISM
Jaakko Hämeen-Anttila
2004
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 10:07:56 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2012, 02:15:31 AM »

Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 02:21:55 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2012, 02:55:21 AM »

Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.

I am not in the scientific community.  I am a Juris Doctor, and continuing grad student who volunteers his time working on FTDNA projects.  I am co-admin of the Y-DNA G, Y-DNA J1*, Aramaic, and Assyrian projects.   Yes.  I worked on that Assyrian-Jewish project with David ("Polako"), and the gentleman who goes by the name "Warwick" on the various fora.  But that was only looking at autosomal DNA.  It did not examine any possible Y chromosome links between Jews and Assyrians.  

You are not offending me.  R-L23 may be from the Balkans.  That is a possibility.  But, that does not make Assyrian R-L584 Armenian necessarily.   That was the claim made.  And that is what I was attempting to refute.   Hurrian, yes.  

Hurrian/Subarian --> Urartian + ??? ≈ Armenians of 1st millennium BCE.  
Hurrian/Subarian + various Semitic and non-Semitic elements ≈ Neo-Assyrians of 1st millennium BCE.

^^ Simply my opinion.  Nothing more.

Wikipedia:

Quote
Subartu was apparently a polity in Northern Mesopotamia, at the upper Tigris. Most scholars accept Subartu as an early name for Assyria proper on the Tigris, although there are various other theories placing it sometimes a little farther to the east, north or west of there. Its precise location has not been identified. From the point of view of the Akkadian Empire, Subartu marked the northern geographical horizon, just as Martu, Elam and Sumer marked "west", "east" and "south", respectively.

Quote
The Hurrians were a Caucasoid people, who spoke a Language isolate of the Ancient Near East who lived in Anatolia and Northern Mesopotamia during the Bronze Age.The largest and most influential partly Hurrian nation was the kingdom of Mitanni, though the Mitanni were an Indo-European speaking people who formed a ruling class over the Hurrians. The population of the Indo-European speaking Hittite Empire in Anatolia to a large part consisted of Hurrians and Hattians, and there is significant Hurrian influence in Hittite mythology. By the Early Iron Age, the Hurrians had been assimilated with other peoples, except perhaps in the kingdom of Urartu. According to I.M. Diakonoff and S. Starostin, the Hurrian, Hattic, and Urartian languages are related to the Northeast Caucasian languages.


So, you are not the fella I know from ABF?  The same fella I have been sharing (or rather was sharing) with at 23andMe?   He goes by the name "Silesian" at ABF.  
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 03:13:44 AM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2012, 10:18:40 AM »

Of course I'm same Silesian who helped contribute towards new computer for hobby research for ABF who is sad to see many hurtful things posted between Armenian and Assyrians, which is very sad, and do not agree with.As well as many bad things about Poles/Germans/Russians/Italians/English, which I consider  to be my family and  extended family also.

Were you not trying to make a link between 30% R1b in Assyrian project and Jewish autosomal?

Do you also contribute to Ht-35 project Vince V and L584 project?

For example, "LoPiccolo" in L584, Ht-35 project by accident?

It is okay if you do not answer the difference between Iraqi Jews and Assyrian Jews.

However there are many branches, Jews belong, for example L21,V88,L584+,L584-,R1a,Q,J1,J2,E,G1,G2,I1,I2,T,L,N.





« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:20:07 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2012, 11:57:20 AM »

Of course I'm same Silesian who helped contribute towards new computer for hobby research for ABF who is sad to see many hurtful things posted between Armenian and Assyrians, which is very sad, and do not agree with.As well as many bad things about Poles/Germans/Russians/Italians/English, which I consider  to be my family and  extended family also.

Were you not trying to make a link between 30% R1b in Assyrian project and Jewish autosomal?

Do you also contribute to Ht-35 project Vince V and L584 project?

For example, "LoPiccolo" in L584, Ht-35 project by accident?

It is okay if you do not answer the difference between Iraqi Jews and Assyrian Jews.

However there are many branches, Jews belong, for example L21,V88,L584+,L584-,R1a,Q,J1,J2,E,G1,G2,I1,I2,T,L,N.

Iraqi Jewish haplotypes are not available.  The best I can tell you about Iraqi Jewish Y-DNA is this:

Reconstruction of Patrilineages and Matrilineages of Samaritans and Other Israeli Populations From Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Variation

HUMAN MUTATION 24:248-260 (2004)

N=20

T-M70: 20%
E-M78: 15%
J-M267: 15%
G-P15: 10%
J-M172: 10%
R-M269: 10%
J-M319: 5%
R-M207: 5%
R-M17: 5%
Q-M242: 5%


The Behar et al. frequencies:

N=79

PQR2 : 30%
E-M35: 16%
J(xJ2): 16%
J2: 11%
K[T]: 11%
G: 10%
R(xR1a): 4%

In addition, Mendez et al. listed Y-DNA T frequencies (N=32):

Y-DNA T

M70: 9%
P77: 13%
-----------
T = 22%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a link between the Assyrian R-L584 men and the Ashkenazi R-L584 men.  See these two gentlemen:

Assyrian - 205749: L584+, L943+
Jewish - 45475: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")

If I have funds to test the additional SNPs, I will.  And hopefully extend testing to other Assyrian men.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not an admin of the ht35 project.  I am friends with Peter Hrechdakian, however.  We are co-admins together on the J1* project. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teddy LoPiccolo was incorrectly classified on Adriano's sheet.  He was listed as L584+.  When in fact he was L405+ (L584-).  23andMe does not test for L584.  I asked Adriano this question, but did not receive a reply:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/ted_lo.jpg

The ht35 admins relied on the classification by Adriano.   Teddy posted a thread on DNA-Forums, and asked about his haplotype.  One of the members of the Assyrian project, Pera, had a few shared markers.   However, after taking a look at Adriano's sheet, I realized that the two men were not that closely related.  I sent Peter this message: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/teddy_l405.jpg

That is where the story of Teddy Lopiccolo's results end for me.   Except for my post in the thread on Worldfamilies. 
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« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2012, 12:23:40 PM »

"(or rather was sharing) with at 23andMe?"
There are not to many who enjoy the same history/subjects and genealogy.
Still sharing :) If not pm and will gladly share.
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« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2012, 12:44:28 PM »

The Lopiccolo kit was eventually placed in the correct group, so it is a non-issue.
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« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »

The Lopiccolo kit was eventually placed in the correct group, so it is a non-issue.
These are some letters I wrote to LoPiccolo on 23andMe. Look at the dates. If acekon suspects that there are some plots, perhaps he isn’t so far from reality.


Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
Dear Teddy, I have seen your data on the "Adriano's spreadsheet". Have you ever done an exam of the STRs?
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
Yes, of course it costs. Once SMGF (The Sorenson, the Mormons) did it for free, but now there is GeneTree and it costs. The best of course is FTDNA. If you follow some offer, you could do it, for instance on 37 markers, for a good price (now it is 169$. I did it for a relative of mine resulted R1b1a2a (like me) at 23andme for 119$, but we had a good exchange with the Euro. You are R1b1a2-M269, the most ancient, and it would be interesting to see your STRs. This exam permits also to find the closest to you by the paternal line, but for me it would be interesting also for another reason: I support that R1b1a2 and subclades was born in Italy and we have in South Italy but also in North Italy and Switzerland a clade with YCAII=17-23, which I retain the original.
Let me know if you can do it. Anyway I thank you for having sent your data to Adriano Squecco.
Kind Regards, Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
I am very glad for your 67 markers test. It will be very interesting. About Maddi and the Sicilian project I can say that I knew Maddi when I wrote on Rootsweb before my banishment and I polemized frequently with him. After he shared his data with me on 23andme. Now that my wife (100% Sicilian) has joined the Sicilian project, I was asked about her 100% Sicilianity to join the project, and I didn't like it. I don't like that many (Phoenicians, Jews, etc.) had convinced Sicilians not to be "Italians". All the theories about this have wrecked, above all those of Dienekes Pontikos (actually […].). For this your R1b1a2* is very important. If it is ancient Italian I'll be right and all them wrong.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 15, 2011
After your order (or, better, after your kit will be arrived to FTDNA) I think you'll have your results within a month, but why you are thinking to Trojans, Assyrians, Hittites? Certainly Assyrians and Hittites hadn't anything to do with Sicily and we are always discussing if R1b1a2 came from Asia Minor or not. My theory is that it was born in Europe, above all in Italy. Why don't you think to the ancient peoples of Sicily? And don't you mind that "Sicels" were Indo-Europeans and linked to Latins and came to Sicily from Latium?
There will be so long to reconstruct truth about Italy and Italians.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Nov 16, 2011
Teddy, I have written many thousands of letters on these arguments, also on “DNA-forums” which banned me at the end of 2008, a work of Jules Van Laar, probably a […] in that nest of […].
1) Your L584+ is that of we all. Only L584-, a back mutation, is found in Middle East and only in R1b1a2a/L23+ like me, not in your haplogroup, and demonstrates that those L23+ aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades.
2) About Trojans it is only a tale. I should be linked with them, being from Tuscany, but I have demonstrated many times that happened the other way around: are the Lemnians to derive from Tuscany and not the contrary.
3) We all will be very glad to know the Genetics of the Elymians.
4) Dienekes is a nationalist Greek who is mostly of Italian descent and denies it. I have defeated him many times. His pretension that Sicilians are mostly Greeks like J2 has been demonstrated false.
5) Jews were annihilated by Romans in two wars. Those of today, mostly the Ashkenazim, are above all Europeans, and above all Italians. They don’t like it and ban me from their forums. But I continue to write on them: […], 23andme etc. are theirs.
Do the test, and after send your results to me and I’ll say to you which is your male line.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 21, 2012
Dear Teddy,
May I know them? Have you posted them to some Project or to ySearch?
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
Teddy, I've seen what Mike wrote to you on Dna-forums: "Teddy, I recommend uploading your results into Ysearch so you can do comparisons a little more easily using the comparison queries. It's a little hard to tell much with R1b1a2 on 37 markers. Let's wait for 38-67 to come in and then we can find who the matches are".
I have already created an account with your data to study them: ySearch CAPFU. When you create an yours, I'll delete mine.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
But of course I don't think that the answer will be in your next data. I have already responded after your 12.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Jan 28, 2012
All data are useful. If you let me know these last, I'd be very grateful to you, but if you prefer to have all this panel and post it on 23andme or Dna-forums it's good the same. But don't forget that only on Worldfamilies (and in part on 23andme) I am able to respond you.
Gioiello
P.S. Of course I have deleted my account.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 4, 2012
But where is LoPiccolo? Before he was amongst the unclassified at the bottom of the ht 35 FTDNA project, but now he has disappeared. It’s well he is “TheLittle”, but to disappear! Oh, but he is amongst the R-L23+/L584+! Who put him there? The administrators or the administrator?
So Mangino (the Tuscan Mancini) is the unique with DYS426=12 amongst all the others 11 and with DYS578=8 amongst all the 9, and LoPiccolo is the unique with DYS426=11 amongst all the L23/L584+=12. And who did test him for L584? In the “Adriano’s spreadsheet” he was L584+ which is really -, being the + actually a back mutation. And wasn’t he also L23-? Really a great confusion. And amongst the L584+ a “Sicilian” has been added to the others, the last the Jew Silver.
Certainly when Mangino (Mancini) and LoPiccolo are put at their true place…

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 4, 2012
Mr. Lo Piccolo, let’s wait for this SNP test, but if you are L49-, like it appears on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”, you cannot be L584+: in this case L584+ would be a recurrent mutation without a meaning for the R-Tree. Your markers say that you are R-M269 like I have always said, but that Vizachero (my worst enemy) has put you amongst the R-L584+ has a meaning: to demonstrate that you aren’t an “Italian”, but a Jew and that hg.R comes from Middle East. For this I have been banned many times from some forums. Certainly your posting about Armenians in South Italy goes in this direction, but Armenians were Indo-Europeans who came from the Balkans and have nothing to do with Italy: They are a little people, killed in part by Turks, and cannot have peopled Italy, which is tenfold more peopled. Unfortunately Mr Vizachero (and probably FTDNA) makes some mistakes (willing) to demonstrate a thesis (wrong). I’ll make some Mancini (from Tuscany) linked to Mangino test by another company.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 13, 2012
Teddy, you have written: “but I am doing a further SNP test”. Can you tell me which SNPs?
Probably L584, perhaps L23/L49.1 etc.?

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
Dear Teddy, this is the SNP L584 at 23andMe:
L584 R1b1a2a1b 27141305 C->T
rs9786602
27141305 rs9786602 A or C
not genotyped Francesca Guarino
C Gioiello Tognoni
not genotyped Giorgio Tognarelli
not genotyped Monica De Conti
not genotyped Silvana Vagelli
not genotyped Velthur Tognoni
As you can see only I, tested with V2, have the result. My relatives, tested with V3, are “not genotyped”. Then if you have done V3, your result hadn’t to appear on the “Adriano’s spreadsheet”. You can see your result. Go to your 23andme account, click on “account” and to “Browse your raw data”, write “rs97866032” where it is written “aSNP” and push “Go”. Your result will appear.
Gioiello

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
That's right. It should be so. Then you aren't L584+ and what appears on the "Adriano's Spreadsheet" is wrong, and also who put you on the "ht 35 Project" amongst the L584+, adding a Sicilian (and a presumed Sephardic) L584+ is wrong like I have said many times, i.e. Mr Vizachero. And now that the Armenians are negative, both the L584+ and the L584-, for the four SNPs found by the WTY on Silver (L943, L944, L945, L946), also the presumed origin from the "Tens Tribes Lost" of L584+ is wrecked. We will discover soon where L584+ was born.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 14, 2012
Teddy, I typed wrongly the SNP. You should write rs9786602. Let me know.

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Feb 15, 2012
Teddy, you can see that you are C like me, i.e. we are ancestral, i.e. L584- and not +. But if you get this result, probably you did 23andMe V2 and not V3. As you see, I was right on every assertion I did. Permit me to publish this result on 23andme and Worldfamilies. I don't publish it on Dna-forums, even though they have permitted my subscription (I am "gioiellot"), after they banned me three times. Of course my banishments were wrong and I am right on all the line.
Thank you for your collaboration.
Kind Regards and Best Wishes, Gioiello Tognoni

Gioiello Tognoni wrote to Teddy LoPiccolo (Teddy L): Mar 5, 2012
Filandro is a very rare surname in Italy (a few persons in Calabria, Puglia, Campania, etc.). I found him on SMGF and put his data on ySearch. Unfortunately who is tested by SMGF is not findable. He matches closely also a Rodrigues, a Brazilian from Portuguese descent. For this I remained open to a foreign origin, also Jewish, but you find some close to you in Sardinia. Of course we can think to a foreign origin too, but I think that your haplotype is deeply rooted in Italy. We shall see when we’ll have more data.
The last paper on Armenians has a haplotype R-M269 with DYS390=26.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 07:34:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2012, 05:04:23 PM »

Are you the same person that was working on a paper for peer
review in the  scientific community showing the connection between Assyrian R1b and Jewish R1b?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/the-assyrians-and-jews-3000-years-of-common-history/


"colleague have drilled into the population history of people living in Iran and eastern Turkey who identify as descendants of ancient Assyrians, and who sent their DNA for analysis. Preliminary findings suggest their ancestors may have once mixed with local Jewish populations, "

Have you come to any conclusions if Iraqi Jews are L584- or L584+ or are they both? Or do they cluster with L943/944/945/946 Ashkenazi?

 Ashkenazi  "Group C"
R1b1a2a1b1: L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")
45475    Louis Silver    Lithuania ?

How do the R1b[L584-/L584+] differ from the L21,R1a,Q,J1,J2 people claiming Jewish ancestry?

Not to offend you, but I believe that the R1b the Armenians in Iraq and region is from the Balkans as Maliclavelli and others have said all along.

I am not in the scientific community.  I am a Juris Doctor, and continuing grad student who volunteers his time working on FTDNA projects.  I am co-admin of the Y-DNA G, Y-DNA J1*, Aramaic, and Assyrian projects.   Yes.  I worked on that Assyrian-Jewish project with David ("Polako"), and the gentleman who goes by the name "Warwick" on the various fora.  But that was only looking at autosomal DNA.  It did not examine any possible Y chromosome links between Jews and Assyrians.  

You are not offending me.  R-L23 may be from the Balkans.  That is a possibility.  But, that does not make Assyrian R-L584 Armenian necessarily.   That was the claim made.  And that is what I was attempting to refute.   Hurrian, yes.  

Hurrian/Subarian --> Urartian + ??? ≈ Armenians of 1st millennium BCE.  
Hurrian/Subarian + various Semitic and non-Semitic elements ≈ Neo-Assyrians of 1st millennium BCE.

^^ Simply my opinion.  Nothing more.

This is a possibility. Keep in mind that "written works" (hint hint) and I am not terribly religious, consider a group possibly identified as Hebrews moved into what would be modern Israel sometime after 1000 BC but before the time of Rome. This is absolutely the reason why Jewish male lineages *should* be diverse, just as our modern day Indo-European speakers. I do not consider there to be a "Semitic" haplogroup, no more than I consider a single haplogroup for PIE, but I feel often racism gets in the way and the E1b1b1 guys are not given a claim to the region they are most native to - if this is the region where Proto-Semitic family was born in ~6000 BC (or whatever the leading argument is). Most here should agree that G1/G2, as well as J1/J2 are more eastern in origin, probably originating in the Caucasus or Mesopotamian region and spreading with some of the earliest civilizations.
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« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2012, 10:19:25 PM »

Quote
Hurrians  and  the  Kingdom  of Mitanni

After the death of Shamshi-Adad I in the 18th century, very little is known about the  region  of  Assyria  and  about  the  city states, such as Asshur and Nineveh, until the 14th  century  B.C. The reason for this lack of information was the chaos brought about by the  mass  migration  of  new  peoples  into  N Mesopotamia.  Chief  among  these  were  the peoples  which  founded  the  kingdom  of Mitanni. This kingdom was  centered on the Habur river,  but  in  its  heyday  its influence spread  as  far  W as  the  Taurus  mountains and as far E as Assyria. Indeed, for a time it seems  to  have  controlled  the  city-states  of Nineveh and Asshur.

Unfortunately,  very  little  information  is available  about  the  kingdom  of Mitanni. Its capital,  Washshukanni,  has  still  not  been located,  and  therefore  the  state  archives  of the  kings  of  Mitanni  have  not  been  discovered.  What  little  we  know  of  this  kingdom and  its  history  we  glean  from  foreign sources:  Assyrian,  Babylonian,  Hittite,  and Egyptian. As meager as this information is, it does allow us to realize that Mitanni was one of the greatest powers in the ancient world in the middle of the 2d millennium B.C. Its kings dealt  as  equals  with  the  Egyptian  pharaohs and Hittite monarchs.

Since Mitanni was such a great power, and controlled Assyria for a time, it is important to consider this kingdom and its  civilization in  any  discussion  of Assyrian  history.   Indeed,  the  two  ethnic  elements  evident  in the  Mitanni  kingdom,  Hurrians  and  Indo Europeans,  also  had  a  major  impact  on the region  of  Assyria  and  thus require  detailed consideration.  The  term  Indo-European refers basically to a large family of languages, among  which  are  modern  English,  French, and  German.  Ancient  languages  included within  this  group  are  Latin,  Greek,  Hittite, and  Sanskrit. The Hurrian language, on the other hand, has not been identified with any known family of languages. Certainly it is neither  Indo-European  nor Semitic. The Hurrians themselves entered Mesopotamia by way of  the  Caucasus from the steppes of  central Asia.  Evidence  of  their  presence  in Mesopotamia,  which  is  supplied  from  personal  names,  goes back at least as far as the Third  Dynasty  of  Ur  (ca. 2000 B.C.).  At  this early date, they were in the east Tigris region, and for the next few centuries there is no evidence they spread beyond this area. Toward the  middle  of  the  2d millennium,  however, they began to move out, and eventually Hurrians  were  spread  over  most  of  the  Fertile  Crescent,  their  presence  being  evident  in Assyria,  Syria,  Anatolia,  and  Palestine.  In Assyria, the site which provides most of our evidence  for  a  strong  Hurrian  presence  is Nuzi.

The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. 1996
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:23:00 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2012, 02:37:29 AM »

Also Assyrian conversions, which predated Khazars.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8358-izates

How much of the population converted?When Kings and Queens convert, we can safely say that many population also converted perhaps using Constantine as an example .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 02:39:15 AM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2012, 11:56:53 AM »

Assyrians.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 09:25:03 PM by acekon » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2012, 12:21:04 PM »

VV seems to not be involved in this hobby for a few years now. Not sure why folks keep expecting him to respond.
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