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Humanist
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2012, 11:10:11 AM »

I forgot to add here that the Assyrian, Al-Jeloo (#205749), is L943+.  This is one of the four SNPs that #45475, of Ashkenazi "Group C" is derived for. 
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Humanist
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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2012, 03:35:52 PM »

Something I posted at another forum:

Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians.  Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project).  Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464.  Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Code:
L584x POP 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii 464a 464b 464c 464d
L584- IQA 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 14 15 17 17
L584+ ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 15 17 17
L584? ALW 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30 xx xx xx xx
L584? DRZ 13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 ?? 13 13 29 xx xx xx xx

The “Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype” (SWAMH)
 
DYS464=15-15-17-17
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2012, 03:55:34 PM »

Something I posted at another forum:

Comparing the R-M269 modals of Druze, Alawites, and Assyrians.  Adding the modal for what appears to be the most frequent Iraqi Arab R-M269 haplotype (see the Iraqi DNA Project).  Standard FTDNA 1-12 and DYS464.  Please note that the Iraqi Arabs are ancestral for L584.

Code:
L584x POP 393 390 19 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389i 392 389ii 464a 464b 464c 464d
L584- IQA 12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 14 15 17 17
L584+ ASY 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 15 15 17 17
L584? ALW 13 24 14 11 11 15 xx xx xx 14 13 30 xx xx xx xx
L584? DRZ 13 24 14 11 xx xx 12 12 ?? 13 13 29 xx xx xx xx

The “Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype” (SWAMH)
 
DYS464=15-15-17-17

Interesting. Seems like there is a big contrast between Iranian R1b and Assyrian/Armenian/Druze/Alawaite etc R1b. Wonder why that is and what this says about the origins of R-M269 and population movements.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2012, 04:19:28 PM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans
Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17%

As I understand For Phokaia (Phocée in french, mother of Massilia/Marseille) and  , Smyrnia, 2 harbours of the old Ionia and Eolia in the west coast of Turkey, they sampled descendants Greeks originated of these towns. As you know the Greek population of Anatolia (3500years of presence) were forced to migrate to Greece, America and Australia, but it is possible the descendants of ancient moslem inhabitants of these towns are not very different genetically, they could be mostly old converted Greeks.
For the anectod, the french prime minister for 1995-1997 was from Marseille, his family came from Smyrnia and before was Armenians (Balladurian) of Nakhichevan.

For  NeoNikomedia in Macedonia, Sesklo/Dimini in Thesssalia, Lerna/Franchti in the East coast of Peloponnésia, south of Argos, they are villages with famous sites of mesolithitic and old neolithic.


Proportion of R1a in Near and Middle East according to Athey predictor (Handschar)
Druze(366) 1% Palestinian Christians(44) 2% Alaouites(104) 2% Assyrian (106) 2% Irak Jews (79) 0% Iran Jews (49) 4% Armenians (1147) 4% Niraq Jews (99) 4% Yezidis (196) 2% Maronites (196) 0%  Yemen Jews (74) 3%    

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2012, 04:31:25 PM »

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2012, 05:10:35 PM »

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?


No, not really (If you haven't noticed I'm a little bit of a character sometimes).

Seriously though, I'm getting where that seems such a long distance, especially when you consider how widespread R1b and R1a expanded.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2012, 05:23:47 PM »

If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

Did they declassify Iranian from the IE family?

Is this a serious response?


No, not really (If you haven't noticed I'm a little bit of a character sometimes).

Seriously though, I'm getting where that seems such a long distance, especially when you consider how widespread R1b and R1a expanded.

My point was that an expansion from the Balkans with IE (or Galatians) for West Asian R1b doesn't make sense because it is found in Iranians (who might be IE speaking but its clear iranian expanded into iran from the steepe and Central Asia with R1a and J2a lineages picked up in Central Asia) as well as Assyrians who are not IE speaking and don't have any clades of I that would indicate a Balkan origin. I have no doubt some Armenian R1b lineages are from the Balkan. This fits in with their language as well as frequency of I (although one wonders about the R1b and I in Kurds).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 05:26:10 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
palamede
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« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2012, 05:27:26 PM »


If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or  religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.

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World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2012, 08:35:31 PM »


If R1b-L23* is from the Balkans and other IE speakers, converted Greeks etc how do you explain its presence in Iran?

I don't know R1b-L23* in Iran well, but it seems me they were mainly from Armenians and Assyrians/Nestorians migrated to Iran in the recent centuries, either to look for a political or  religious refugia, and/or for trade .

When you look at statistics in Iran and Central Asia for R1, it is difficult to say if it is R1b-M343*, R1b1-P25*, R1b1a-P297*, R1b1b-M335, R1b1c-V88, R1b1a1-P73, R1b1a2-M269*, R1b1a2a-L23.



R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 08:49:38 PM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
palamede
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« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2012, 03:18:46 AM »

R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.
Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913
Pop   N   R1a   Language      Source
Druze   366   1%   Semitic   Arabic   Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri   44   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Fernandes at al.*
Alawi   104   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Donbak et al.*
Assyr   106   2%   Semitic   Aramaic   Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ   79   0%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
IranJ   49   4%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
Armeni   1147   4%   Indo-European   Armenian   Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews   99   4%   Semitic   Hebrew/Aramaic   Nebel et al.
Yezidi   196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE)   Kurmanji   Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit   196   0%   Semitic   Arabic/Aramaic   Haber et al.
YemenJ   74   3%   Semitic   Hebrew/Arabic   Behar et al.
Bakht   46   15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Luri   Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh   18   6%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Gilak   43   14%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Gilaki   Roewer et al.
Mazan   46   7%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Mazandarani   Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh   43   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Tats   20   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Tati   Bertoncini et al.
------------------------
Pop    N    R1b    Language        Source
Druze__    643    17%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi    104    33%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr    79    24%    Semitic    Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ    79    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ    49    2%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen    413    29%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ    99    13%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt    59    14%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron    196    8%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ    74    5%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
----------------------
Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".
In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great  advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages  at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia.  I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Daghestan with high frequencies for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequencies for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.
Balouches  are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom  (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 04:58:07 AM by palamede » Logged

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World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2012, 06:31:07 AM »


Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    19%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 10:59:45 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2012, 09:00:41 AM »

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?
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« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2012, 10:53:26 AM »


Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913


Pop      N     R1a  Language            Source
Druze___ 366   1%   Semitic Arabic       Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri__ 44   2%   Semitic Arabic       Fernandes at al.*
Alawi___ 104   2%   Semitic Arabic       Donbak et al.*
Assyr___ 106   2%   Semitic Aramaic     Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ___ 79    0%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    4%   Semitic Hebrew     Behar et al.
Armeni__ 1147  4%   Indo-European Armenian     Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews_ 99    4%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic     Nebel et al.
Yezidi__ 196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE) Kurmanji     Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit_ 196   0%   Semitic Arabic/Aramaic     Haber et al.
YemenJ__ 74    3%   Semitic Hebrew/Arabic     Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    15%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri     Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    6%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh      Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    14%  Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki      Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    7%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani     Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh     Roewer et al.
Tats____ 20    0%   Indo-Iranian (IE) Tati     Bertoncini et al.

------------------------

Pop      N     R1b  Language            Source
Druze___ 643   17%   Semitic Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris_ 44    2%    Semitic Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi___ 104   33%   Semitic Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr___ 79    24%   Semitic Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ___ 79    4%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ___ 49    2%    Semitic Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen___ 413   29%   Indo-European Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ____ 99    13%   Semitic Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt__ 59    14%   Semitic Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron___ 196   8%    Semitic Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ___ 74    5%    Semitic Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht___ 46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh__ 18    44%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak___ 43    23%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan___ 46    15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh__ 43   19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

----------------------


Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people,higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b , but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".....

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

I think this is another bit of evidence that R1b was more easterly and northerly that the Balkans or Anatolia.  Add to the fact that R1b's structure is suggestive of a lack of farming style demographic expansion the Balkans and Anatolia again do not really fit as they were early farming areas (very early in Anatolia).  I think its all begining to point to R1b being immediate westerly neighbours of R1a on the steppes.  That is the vvery area that might have been squeezed between Cucuteni-Trypole (non-R1b) farmers pushing in from the west and the other steppes peoples (R1a?) to the east.  Maybe R1b was a Bug-Dneister haplogroup.  The west end of the steppes has a terribly complex later  history.  Regardless of the specifcs it does look to me from the Iranian aspect that R1b was a factor in the steppes.  It probably clealry wasnt as simple as R1b being the western steppes groups and R1a the eastern steppes given the R1a in corded ware and R1b very closeby at the same time in eastern Germany but some sort of pattern with more R1b in the west and R1a in the east and a mixed area would make a lot of sense.

I think if the variance dating of R1b phlogeny is accepted (which I admit I was a dounting Thomas about for a long time) then R1b was not in the farming zone in Europe (or perhaps only marginally so when a few lineages strayed into the zone) until 3000BC.  I think if the variance dating of the phylogeny of R1b is true then there is absolutely no chance that it originated in Mesopotamia, Anatolia or in the Balkans Neolithic.  The evidenced is piling up (and I admit its surprised me) but no point in denying that it suggests R1b's roots were in an area outside the early farming zone and indeed until very late.   The steppes are looking very very likely now when all the new evidence is weighed up.  If their first intrusions from the steppes were into the Caucuses, western Anatolia, Romania etc as hinted at by variance then
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« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2012, 01:04:26 PM »

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  
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« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2012, 02:14:45 PM »

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else? 

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?
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« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2012, 03:42:52 PM »

For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Dagestan with high frequency for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequency for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg
Today, I found these 2 maps . I noticed some names.
In the first map,
Albania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania They spoke a language of caucasian family, it was written .
"Originally, the Caucasian Albanians apparently spoke Lezgic languages close to those found in modern Daghestan. After the Caucasian Albanians were Christianized in the 4th century, the western parts of the population were gradually assimilated by the ancestors of modern Armenians, and the eastern parts of Caucasian Albania were Islamized and absorbed by Iranian and subsequently Turkic peoples(modern Azerbaijanis). Small remnants of this group continue to exist independently, and are known as the Udi people.
The pre-Islamic population of Caucasian Albania might have played a role in the ethnogenesis of a number of modern ethnicities, including the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians of the Nagorno-Karabakh, the Georgians of Kakhetia, the Laks, the Lezgins and the Tsakhurs of Daghestan"
Iberia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
"The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors."
"The Mushki (Muški; Georgian: მესხები Meshebi, მუშქები Mushkebi, Meskhetians, Moschia) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources. They do not appear in Hittite records.[1] Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι) of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115), one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians, while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
Identification of the Eastern with the Western Mushki is uncertain, but it is of course possible to assume a migration of at least part of the Eastern Mushki to Cilicia in the course of the 10th to 8th centuries, and this possibility has been repeatedly suggested, variously identifying the Mushki as speakers of a Georgian, Armenian or Anatolian idiom. The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture notes that "the Armenians according to Diakonoff, are then an amalgam of the Hurrian (and Urartians), Luvians and the Proto-Armenian Mushki (or Armeno-Phrygians) who carried their IE language eastwards across Anatolia."[2]
The Eastern Muski appear to have moved into Hatti in the 12th century, completing the downfall of the collapsing Hittite state, along with various Sea Peoples. They established themselves in a post-Hittite kingdom in Cappadocia.
Whether they moved into the core Hittite areas from the east or west has been a matter of some discussion by historians. Some speculate that they may have originally occupied a territory in the area of Urartu; alternatively, ancient accounts suggest that they first arrived from a homeland in the west (as part of the Armeno-Phrygian migration), from the region of Troy, or even from as far as Macedonia, as the Bryges.
Together with the Hurrians and Kaskas, they invaded the Assyrian provinces of Alzi and Puruhuzzi in about 1160, but they were pushed back and defeated, along with the Kaskas, by Tiglath-Pileser I in 1115 BC, who until 1110 advanced as far as Milid."

Muski could be an important  bearer of balkanic R1b-L23xL51 to Armenia and Assyrian areas about 1100BC.

Kaskas, originally south cost of Black Sea (probably Caucasian language) east of Halys mouth, were an everly problem for the Hittite Empire. On Iberia map, we see the province of Gogharena. "Gog and Magog" in the Bible.

Atropatene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropatene
Massagetlor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetes Lived originally around Syr Daria in South Kazakhstan and North Uzbekistan where they had killed the great conquestor Cyrus the Great, founder of Persian Empire.l
"Ammianus Marcellinus considered the Alans to be the former Massagetae.[11] At the close of the 4th century CE, Claudian (the court poet of Emperor Honorius and Stilicho) wrote of Alans and Massagetae in the same breath: "the Massagetes who cruelly wound their horses that they may drink their blood, the Alans who break the ice and drink the waters of Maeotis' lake" (In Rufinem).
Sakasene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakas
The Persian word for Scythians
Kadusilor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadusians
" Modern day Talysh people generally identify themselves with the ancient Cadusians."
Gellor cousins of Cadusians, maybe origin of names Gilan and Gilakis.
Kaspiana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspians
Utilor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people 10,000 Udi, christian survivors of old Albanians. Their langage (Lezghian sub-family of NE Caucasian) is the surviror of the old Albanian language.sfa
Karkarlar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargareans
"In addition to their importance to the ancestry of Chechens and Ingush, the Gargareans have also been considered possibly central to the formation of the Èrs, another historical (albeit now extinct) Nakh people living in Northern Armenia and Hereti (the name Hereti is derived from them)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%88rs_people
Amardlar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amard

Caspians, Hyrcanians (modern Gilan, Mazandaran and Golestan), Outians (Udi), Myques (Caspian Muski?), Mosches (Black Sea Muski), Matienes (around Van Lake south of Armenia, "The Mannaeans who probably spoke a Hurro-Urartian language, were subdued by the Scytho-Kimmerians during the seventh and eighth centuries BC. Matiene was ultimately conquered by the Medes in about 609 BCE."), Armenians, Phrygians, Assyrians,  Sakas  of Xerxes army(480BC) are described by Hérodote.


In the second map, we see
Sarmata refers to Massagetes/Alani come from Aral Sea shores http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asii , the old kingdom of Alani/Osseti which dominated North Caucasus before turkish arrivals and prolonged to south Caucaus along the Caspian shores.
Shakashen refers to Sakasene
Utik (Otene) refers to Utilor.
Kaspiana refers to Caspians
Gardman an Armenia province and city sampleds by Herrero et al-2012
Getari Getiae ? (weakly probable) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae
Gugarsk refers to Gasgi.
Gelawu refers to Gellor.
  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 08:50:26 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
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« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2012, 03:49:02 PM »

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Not the historical period, but if we go back 4000+ years, it is a different story. Speaking for N Mesopotamians only.  

Edit.  Apologies.  If you are referring to as far back as 2000 BCE and earlier, then yes.  

What I'm getting at is to answer the question, would the the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrian R1b folks probably have spoken Semitic languages in the Bronze Are or something else?  

Is it known these people adopted Semitic languages or are a mixture of people inluding those that did not speak Semitic languages?

I know the Hurrians and Hattians of the Bronze Age have been discussed. Is it just is likely the ancestors of the Alawi and Assyrians were speaking one of those languages versus some Semitic languages?

Hi Mike.  When you have an hour or so, please read through this thread.  The link begins at page 11: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11  

There is a great deal of very interesting information.  Including possible Indo-European links in the Bronze and Iron ages.  For instance, archaeologists have found evidence of cremations at sites with ties to the Assyrian ruling class.   However, in another post in the thread, one reads the following:

Quote
According to archeologist Schloen: "Kuttumuwa's inscription shows a fascinating mixture of non-Semitic and Semitic cultural elements, including a belief in the enduring human soul-which did not inhabit the bones of the deceased, as in traditional Semitic thought, but inhabited his stone monument, possibly because the remains of the deceased were cremated. Cremation was considered to be abhorrent in the Old Testament and in traditional West Semitic culture, but there is archaeological evidence for Indo-European-style cremation in neighboring Iron Age sites."


As for your specific question, here is a post from that thread.  There is a great deal we simply do not know.  I do not believe N Mesopotamia was Semitic-speaking ~4500 years ago.  The ancestral home of the Alawites includes, and is relatively near an area where several ancient Indo-European-speaking peoples were located ~3000 years back, ~4000 years back...(Hittite, Luwian, Lycian, etc.).  Please see this speculative map of languages of Anatolia and N Mesopotamia in the year 1700 BCE: http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/BC1700.jpg

Quote
[A]s literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [~ Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

Tell Baqrta/Tell Nader Project 2011
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias
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« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2012, 03:58:14 PM »

Another post from that thread, on the topic:

Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

by Gábor Zólyomi

forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393

Quote
A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).
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« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2012, 04:04:58 PM »

A few posts on the topic of Assyrian cremations, below.  There are more.

Three related posts:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=837989&postcount=146

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838064&postcount=147

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=838363&postcount=148
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« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2012, 04:09:07 PM »

Horse sacrifice:

A Neo-Assyrian Text Describing a Royal Funeral

Dr. John MacGinnis, Cambridge

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=866964&postcount=188
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« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2012, 07:51:30 PM »

Based on Marko's 67 STR R tree.

Five of the Assyrian R-L584 men are tested through 67 markers.  Two L277 men (one speculative), are also tested through 67 markers.  A number of the Assyrian men are not tested through 67 markers.

R1b1a2a1b (L584)

Assyrian #1, kit # 205749: TMRCA of 1848 years with Askhenazi Cohanim and Syrian Jewish men.

Assyrian #2, kit # 213562: TMRCA of 2239 years with Assyrian #1 and Askhenazi Cohanim and Syrian Jewish men.  Another 1011 years (3250 years), connects him to four men.  One of the men lists France as an origin.

Assyrian #3*, kit # 147979: TMRCA of 3293 years with two men of unknown origin.  One of the two men lists "Strickland" as a surname.

Assyrian #4, kit # 184027: TMRCA of 1505 years with three men.  At least two appear to be Armenian.  Further removed from present, this branch appears dominated by Armenians.

Assyrian #5, kit # 90492: TMRCA of 1735 years with a man listing Ireland as an origin.  Another 2025 years (3760 years), connects him with a number of what appear to be Armenian and European men.

L277 (23andMe)

Assyrian #6, kit # 213878: TMRCA of 2293 with an Armenian man.  Another 278 years (2571 years), connects him with a number of men, including a man listing Qatar as an origin, a man with a listed surname of "Hussein," an Assyrian from Iraq (Assyrian #7), and an Armenian man.  Another 854 years back (3425 years), connects him with a number of Armenian men, a man from Russia (Jewish?), a man from Kazakhstan, a man from Qatar, a man from Georgia, and a man of unknown origin.

Assyrian #7*, kit # 190249: See details for Assyrian #6, above.

* Not SNP confirmed.
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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2012, 07:14:31 AM »

My feeling is that L23* in the north Levant and northern Mesopotamia is related to the Hittite empire.  I found Anatole's paper about an outpouring from the north a lot more persuasive than the idea of people moving from the farming zone into the eastern steppes etc.  R1b just not have the structure you would expect from deep time presence in the farming zone.  A movement south c. 4000BC from the north would seem to me to fit quite well with the Anatolian early split from the PIE zone.
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« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2012, 10:04:29 AM »

R1b reaches a frequency of >40% among some minorities in Northern Iran. Are you actually saying 40 % of male lineages in certain North Iranian communities who are known for their high degrees of endogamy are Armenian or Assyrian in origin? Nor does it explain why North Iranians (the entire north not just the northwest where armenians and assyrians are concentrated) and South Iranians do have R1b when Armenians and Assyrians are concentrated in NW Iran. Why would the Gilaki have R1b ? No Armenians and Assyrians there. And once again doesn't explain how Assyrians would have gotten R1b without I . I get that you want to make L23 European but that all Iranian R1b derives from Assyrians and Armenians has very little to support it.

Doesn't explain the M269 in Balochis and Tajiks either. Their admixture with Iranian plataeau populations is more than a few centuries old and there are certainly no Assyrians or Armenians in SE Iran, SW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where these two groups live.
Interesting map of langages in Iran
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8673/inuseiran.jpg

I found statistics for R1a, R1b and I given by  Humanist/Handschar in
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=25913
Pop   N   R1a   Language      Source
Druze   366   1%   Semitic   Arabic   Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al.
PalChri   44   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Fernandes at al.*
Alawi   104   2%   Semitic   Arabic   Donbak et al.*
Assyr   106   2%   Semitic   Aramaic   Yepiskoposian et al.
IraqJ   79   0%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
IranJ   49   4%   Semitic   Hebrew   Behar et al.
Armeni   1147   4%   Indo-European   Armenian   Hererra et al., Weale et al.
NiqJews   99   4%   Semitic   Hebrew/Aramaic   Nebel et al.
Yezidi   196   2%   Indo-Iranian(IE)   Kurmanji   Yepiskoposian et al.
Maronit   196   0%   Semitic   Arabic/Aramaic   Haber et al.
YemenJ   74   3%   Semitic   Hebrew/Arabic   Behar et al.
Bakht   46   15%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Luri   Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh   18   6%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Gilak   43   14%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Gilaki   Roewer et al.
Mazan   46   7%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Mazandarani   Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh   43   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Talysh   Roewer et al.
Tats   20   0%   Indo-Iranian (IE)   Tati   Bertoncini et al.
------------------------
Pop    N    R1b    Language        Source
Druze__    643    17%    Semitic    Arabic    Behar et al., Al-Zahery et al., Shlush et al.
PlChris    44    2%    Semitic    Arabic    Fernandes et al.
Alawi    104    33%    Semitic    Arabic    Donbak et al.
Assyr    79    24%    Semitic    Aramaic    FTDNA, 23andMe
IraqJ    79    4%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
IranJ    49    2%    Semitic    Hebrew    Behar et al.
Armen    413    29%    Indo-European    Armenian    Hererra et al.
NiqJ    99    13%    Semitic    Hebrew/Aramaic    Nebel et al.
GrkOrt    59    14%    Semitic    Arabic    Haber et al.
Maron    196    8%    Semitic    Arabic/Aramaic    Haber et al.
YemeJ    74    5%    Semitic    Hebrew/Arabic    Behar et al.
Bakht    46    7%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Luri    Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
Gilak    43    23%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Gilaki    Roewer et al.
Mazan    46    15%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Mazandarani    Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh    43    19%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.
----------------------
Balanovsky et al. Y-DNA I

Avar    2
Kubachi    2
Chechen   (Chechnya)   1
Circassians    0.7
Ingush   (Ingushetia)   0.7
Shapsug    0
Abkhaz    0
Ossets-Iron    0
Ossets-Digor    0
Chechen   (Ingushetia)   0
Chechen   (Dagestan)   0
Dargins    0
Kaitak    0
Lezghins    0

Herrera et al. Y-DNA I for 4 Armenian populations
Gardman 8.3
Ararat 2.7
Van 1.9
Sasun 0

Iranian data from Roewer et al. (DMXX from DNA-Forums)
Bakhtiari    8.7
North Talysh   4.7
Mazandarani   4.4
Gilaki 2.3
South Talysh   0
----------------------------------
Four your frequency > 40%, I suppose you refer this figure for 18 South Talish in Iranian South Coast of Caspian Sea .
S_Tlsh    18    44%    Indo-Iranian (IE)    Talysh    Roewer et al.

Anyway, there is a noticeable frequency of R1b in some Caucasian and Iranian people, higher than I in the same people. If South-East   Balkan origin, you wait for a same proportion for I2 and R1b, but the problem is the same for South Greece, Crete and Egean islands where R1b ( 20%) is twice or more higher than I2 (5-10%). Before Gothic, Slavic, Bulgarian, Turkish invasions and the continuous Albanian migration towards Greece, the proportion of I and R1a were lower in South Balkans and the proportion of R1b-L23xL51 were a lot higher. It is also showed in the  samples of descendants of  Greeks of West  coast of Anatolia (Phokaia and Smyrna).
Roy J King and al -2011" The dominant haplogroups in both Phokaia and Smyrna are E-V13 (19.4% and 12.1%) and R1b-M269 (22.6% and 27.8%) respectfully. In addition, J2a is also common, attaining a frequency of 9.7% in Phokaia and 15.5% in Smyrna. ".
In Mesolithics, I think R1b-L23xL51 was a great majority of population in Greece and South Balkans before the arrival of G2a, J2 and E1b1b1 in the last Mesolithic/.Early Neolithic. I2 were more concentrated in Centre-East Europe north of Danube-Bosna line.

Since LGM (25,000-19,000BP) which gived a great  advantage of one (maximum 2) haplogroup by region due to very hard life conditions and very weak population density by genetic drift and founding effect at the end of LGM and end of last cold peaks for sub-groups, then since the end of Younger Dryas (12,000BP), there have been a continous mixing. Genetic drifts and founding effects could take place in very localized and weak populations, I don't accept a lot of bottlenecks found by population geneticians for Middle and Modern ages  at all . In Europe, the last great founding effect was the entry of hg I1 in empty Scandinavia.  I am convinced that archeologia and physical anthropology show a relative stability of population in Europe and large parts of Asia and Africa, except progressive mixings more and more accelerated thru the modern times until present.

For R1b along the Caspian Sea shores,from Daghestan with high frequencies for Bagvadals, Tabarassans and some frequencies for Kumiks and Lezgians, to the old Hyrcania with Talishes, Gilakis and Mazanderis, it would be necessary to know better the ethnical  formation  of Albania (and Atropatene) during the Greco-Roman times in the present Azerbaidjan.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28354&PN=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aghuank.jpg

About R1b in Central Asia and South Asia, I have no idea about the frequency of R1b-L23xL51. If existing, it could be partially explained by the Greek presence in Bactriane and arounding regions during three centuries (From 325 BC (Alexander) to 15AD the end of the last indo-greek kingdom in Pendjab).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks (nice map)

Tadjiks are descendants of old inhabitants of Bactriane and Sogdiane.
Balouches  are said to come from the Caspian shores and "Balochi is closely related to other Northwestern Iranian languages such as Kurdish".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom  (nice maps)

It is difficult to know the proportion of Greek "blood" in the nobles of these kingdoms and the following Kuchan and Sakas kingdoms, probably decreasing with the time.

I suspect the I in Iran is recent admixture (for example we know Viking raids reached the Caspian coast of Iran-some of this I is I1 not I2 so a Balkan origin is really out of the question).  The sample sizes were also small for those North iranian populations I believe.


There is close to zero Greek ancestry in Central /South Asia. Why do people feel the need to invoke such ridiculous theories? There is enough R1b in Northern iran and iranian dynasties have ruled the region for how much more than Greeks and their short lived empire. Yet the R1b-L23 there is from Europe for some.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 10:21:16 AM by intrestedinhistory » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2012, 10:09:39 AM »

This is an interesting point. If I understand it, you are saying that the Caucasian and Iranian popultions with high R1b frequencies do NOT see the same ratios of R1b to I2 that we would expect to see if there was an incursion from SE Europe. Right?  Is there any reason to think I2 was late to SE Europe or is sporadic, therefore causing the different mix?

As long as the R1b to I2 ratio is valid, R1b, where it appears in Iranian and Caucasian ethnic groups, appears NOT to come from SE Europe.  If not from SE Europe, from where?

I see some of these populations are IE and some are Semitic. Is there any pattern to this?  Do we think some of these languages were historical period adoptions?

Just thinking out loud here...

The western Balkans seem to have many times more I2 than the east. If the R1b migration to Iran and Caucasia came from the Eastern Balkans, perhaps there was no I2 to be picked up along the way?

I really doubt this. This is wishful thinking. Like I said the I in Iran is of recent admixture. Its not even all I2. A more reasonable explanation would be R1b originated in Anatolia and is found in iran due to demic diffusion from the territory right next to it.
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