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A.D.
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« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2010, 06:22:16 PM »

there is an awful lot uncear about the hittites but thet certainly seemed puposfull.
iam i right in thinking tha the area around Hatush is still sparesely populated and has been scince their deprarture leaving a dna trail unliklt i mean there was so few left that they would have little if any trace. it is not an area inclined for settlement of the city building kind. far more sutable for nomads or horse breeders. it seem feasable that hese expert ( and specialist 3 man chariot) chrioeeers could have turned up in the newly rising assyrian army.
famosly Uriah the hittite is mentioned in the bible fighting in Davids army settled in isreal.
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intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2012, 09:22:36 PM »

Gioiello,

The idea that R1b1b2 originated in Western Europe and spread east seems to me indefensible, given the haplotype and SNP evidence. In fact, it is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates.

I didn't find your explanation of what you think you see in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project all that convincing either. You seem to simply make assertions.

-- MESSAGE SEGMENT DELETED --  Terry
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:02:10 PM by Terry Barton » Logged
Humanist
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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2012, 09:53:06 PM »

If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.

I would not go by the Assyrian project data.  There are individuals of non-Assyrian origin participating, including some Levantine Christians.  Plus, there are many Assyrians on 23andMe, whose data one cannot see by viewing the FTDNA project page.  This is the most recent mtDNA distribution for Assyrians:

N=64

H   26.6%
U   25.0%
HV   15.6%
J   14.1%
T   9.4%
K   3.1%
I   1.6%
N   1.6%
W   1.6%
X   1.6%
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 09:55:07 PM by Humanist » Logged

intrestedinhistory
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2012, 10:22:03 PM »

If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.

I would not go by the Assyrian project data.  There are individuals of non-Assyrian origin participating, including some Levantine Christians.  Plus, there are many Assyrians on 23andMe, whose data one cannot see by viewing the FTDNA project page.  This is the most recent mtDNA distribution for Assyrians:

N=64

H   26.6%
U   25.0%
HV   15.6%
J   14.1%
T   9.4%
K   3.1%
I   1.6%
N   1.6%
W   1.6%
X   1.6%


I would ignore those statements. Some people will deny the West Asianess of Western Europeans regardless of what science says. The gene flow is the other way around. There is no Western European ancestry in Asia only some Eastern European ancestry due to Indo-Iranians, Tocharians etc
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palamede
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2012, 05:16:45 PM »

Armenian studies: According to the origin of samped Armenians

ARV Ararat Valley (Armenia n =110 R1b-M269xL23 5 R1b-L23 36 J2 26
GRD Gardman (NW Azerbaid n=96  R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 30 J2 J2 31
Van Lake Van (East Turkey) n=103 R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 33 J2 30
SAS Sasoun (S-East Turkey) n=104  R1b-M269xL23 0 R1b-L23 21 J2 16 strong presence of hg T 21 and R2 18 corresponding to a referenced historical event: Mamikonian dynasty from 330 to 775  in Sasoun (coming from Iran ?)

Assyrian results are similar to Armenian results.  Same for Alaouites of NW Syria N=104 R1b 34% while their neighbouring Karamanic  Turks are  14%. Results with Athey predictor. Origin of R1b Alaouite : Neo-Hittite kingdoms in North Syria and Cilicia ?

In dna-forums (its stop is scandalous and a judiciary action againt George Van Der Merwede must be put in action for abusive behavior, a lot of people wrote and this can be considered as the intellectual property, not financial (we can consider  it is the price of the hosting),  but moral  )  Handshar created a lot of posts with great value about Near and Middle East.
Don't confuse modern Assyrians and old Assyrian empire although modern people of Assyrian religion are partly descendants of the subjects of Assyrian kings.
Easter Assyrians trace their ancestries in the churches of the Adiabene kingdom (Capital Arbela)
Western Assyrians from Adiabene, Osroene (Edessa kingdom), Gordyene (between Armenia (north) and Adiabene (south)), Sophene between Commagene and Cappadocia (West) Armenia (north), Osrhoene (south) . See map of Handshar of Tigrane empire, I noticed.


Kurds n=370 E1b1b 8,9% G 4,1% I (probably balkanic I2a2) 10,0% J1 13,5% J2 21,6% K (probable T) 4,3% L 3,5% P (probable R2) 7,0%   R1a1-M17 11,9% R1b 11,4%
About I, Handshar said it is a difference between Armenians and Assyrians , because 5% of I2a2 in Armenians and not present in Assyrians.

Myres et al.-2010 frequency of R1b-L23*
2 small tribes of Daghestan NE Caucasus
Bagvalals 67.9% 6,500 people of language in  avaro-andi group of NE Caucasian family
Tabasarans 37,2% 110,000 of language in lezguiangroup of NE Caucasian family
Cappadocia (Turkey) 14,6%
2 more important people in Daghestan
Kumiks (Daghestan) 14,5% language Turk-Kipshak
Lezgis 12,9% of language in lezguian family of NE Caucasian family


I agree with nobody except with myself. I don't accept too fast mutation rates (specially effective rates)
For me,  R1b in Middle East and Anatolia came partly at the beginning of LGM as etensions of the balkanic refugia, partly from Balkans with IE migrations (Hittites, Louwites, Lydians, Phrygians, Armenians, Mosches, Thraces, Greeks, ..).

R1b-L23* arrived in SE Europe from Western and Central Europa at the beginning in LGM (Before 22,000BP) and South Balkanic R23 didn't know the avatars of R1b-L23 in Western Europe during the terrible cold peaks of LGM from 23,000BP to 15,000BP, the population was reduced several times to some hundred people: L23* disapppeared and only derived haplogroups survived and succeeded to populate W Europe again.  

Probably hg I survived with very reduced groups in some oasis of last forests of Central Europe and North Balkans . If present in W Europe before LGM,  hg I was removed except Sardinia maybe. I  believe I2a1-M26  in W Europe come from Sardinia and Italy with Cardial and Bell Beakers later. Important presence of G2a, first in Cardial, then  in Bell Beakers from Portugal and W Mediterranee. I don't know the itinerary  of G2a cardial  from Black Sea. Danubian (LBK) G2a is more easy to follow from Black Sea by Danube. J2b continental from North Greece in Danubian wave  with E1b1b-V13, J2a maritime in Cardial, but J2 seems coming after G2 in the 2 roads (Danube and Med coasts) .
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:00:53 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Humanist
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2012, 06:06:05 PM »

Thank you very much for the kind words, palamede.  With all due respect, however, I do not agree with some of what was stated, regarding confusing "modern Assyrians and old Assyrian empire."  I do not claim absolute continuity, but, I certainly believe I am no less a son of ancient Nineveh, than a Greek man is a son of ancient Athens, and an Armenian man is a son of ancient Ararat...  

Please read through the last 6 pages of the thread I am providing a link to below.  The totality of the data, including the genetic record (autosomal, mtDNA, and Y-DNA), does not suggest significant discontinuity.  

And thank you again for taking the time to reply to this thread and sharing your thoughts.  I do appreciate it.

I post under the moniker "Humanist," at the forum linked to below:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.net/showthread.php?t=13197&page=11

Also, from the eminent Assyriologist, Simo Parpola, regarding our millennia-old self-appellation:

Quote
It is important to draw attention to the fact that the Aramaic-speaking peoples of the Near East have since ancient times identified themselves as Assyrians and still continue to do so. The self-designations of modern Syriacs and Assyrians, Sūryōyō and Sūrāyā, are both derived from the ancient Assyrian word for "Assyrian", Aššūrāyu, as can be easily established from a closer look at the relevant words.

The word Aššūrāyu is an adjective derived from the geographical and divine name Aššur with the gentilic suffix -āyu. This name was originally pronounced [Aššūr], with a palato-alveolar fricative, but owing to a sound shift, its pronunciation was turned to [Aθθūr] in the early second millennium BC. The common Aramaic word for Assyria, Āθūr, reflects this pronunciation and in all probability dates back to the twelfth century BC, when the Aramean tribes first came into contact with the Assyrians. Towards the end of the second millennium, another sound shift took place in Assyrian, turning the pronunciation of the name into [Assūr]. Since unstressed vowels and even whole syllables were often dropped in Neo-Assyrian at the beginning of words, this name form later also had a shorter variant, [Sūr], attested in alphabetic writings of personal names containing the element Aššur in late seventh century BC Aramaic documents from Assyria. The Neo-Assyrian word [Assūrāyu], “Assyrian”, thus likewise had a shorter variant [Sūrāyu] in the seventh century. This variant is hidden behind standard orthography in Assyrian cuneiform texts, but its existence is confirmed by the classical Greek words for Assyrians and Assyria, which display a corresponding variation between forms with initial A- (Assúrios/Assuría) and ones without it (Súrios/Súros/Suría; see AppendixIII).The Greeks, who were in frequent contact with Assyria in the eighth and seventh centuries BC,57 would not have borrowed the word without the initial A-, had the Assyrians themselves not omitted it, since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of classical Greek phonology.

Phonologically, Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā perfectly agrees with Neo-Assyrian [Sūrāyu], while Syriac Sūryōyō displays an intrusive yod, which it shares with Greek Súrios and Suría. This intrusive yod surely is due to Greek influence, since in classical Syriac the word also occurs in the form Sūrōyō, in perfect agreement with the Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā. It is worth noting that Sūrāyā is reported to have a variant with initial A-, but this is avoided in careful speech, since it instinctively sounds incorrect in view of the classical Syriac Sūryōyō. Since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of Aramaic phonology, the lack of the initial A- in Sūrāyā/Sūr(y)ōyō cannot be due to internal Aramaic development but must go back directly to Neo-Assyrian.

Footnotes:
[Assūr] ~ [Sūr] has a perfect parallel in the NA forms of another important divine name, Ištar (NA [Iššār]), which was also realized as [Šār] in Neo-Assyrian, see PNA 1/I, xxv. As in the case of [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is effectively concealed behind the prodominantly logographic or ossified cuneiform spellings of the divine name ((d)15, dINNIN, dIŠ.TAR), but its existence is raised beyond any doubt by the NA spellings of the Urartian royal name Sarduri [Šārdūri], which is written varyingly as m(d)15-du-ri, mdINNIN-du-ri or msa-ar-du-ri in the Neo-Assyrian royal inscriptions (see PNA 2/I 568f; note also the spelling URU.15-BÀD-a-ni = Sarduriani in ABL 147 = SAA 5 97 r.11). The “rebus” spellings m(d)15-du-ri and mdINNIN-BÀD/du-ri, implying the short form [Šār], are already attested in several inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser III from c. 740 BC, and continue to be found in the letters and inscriptions of Sargon II (721-705) and Assurbanipal (668-630; for the latter, note m15-BÀD LUGAL KUR.ur-arţi in Streck 1916, 84:40, and mdI[Š.TAR-du-r]i LUGAL KUR.ú-ra-ar-ţi-im-[ma], ABL 1240:4-5). Like [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is also explicitly attested in Aramaic alphabetic spelling (cf. šrdrq’l = md15–BÀD-qa-a-li [Iššār-dūr-qāli], AECT 31) and in NB spellings of the Neo-Assyrian name Issār-tarība (mdiš-šar–ta-ri-bi, mdiš-šár–ta-ribi, mšar–ta-ri-bi, mdšár–ta-ri-bi, md15–ta-ri-bi, and mdIŠ.TAR–ta-ri-bi, all referring tothe same person), see Zadok 1984, 4.

Simo Parpola speaking about Assyrian identity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjfCTtcCms

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87inek%C3%B6y_inscription
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:20:16 PM by Humanist » Logged

palamede
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2012, 06:26:12 PM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans
Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17%

As I understand For Phokaia (Phocée in french, mother of Massilia/Marseille) and  , Smyrnia, 2 harbours of the old Ionia and Eolia in the west coast of Turkey, they sampled descendants Greeks originated of these towns. As you know the Greek population of Anatolia (3500years of presence) were forced to migrate to Greece, America and Australia, but it is possible the descendants of ancient moslem inhabitants of these towns are not very different genetically, they could be mostly old converted Greeks.
For the anectod, the french prime minister for 1995-1997 was from Marseille, his family came from Smyrnia and before was Armenians (Balladurian) of Nakhichevan.

For  NeoNikomedia in Macedonia, Sesklo/Dimini in Thesssalia, Lerna/Franchti in the East coast of Peloponnésia, south of Argos, they are villages with famous sites of mesolithitic and old neolithic.


Proportion of R1a in Near and Middle East according to Athey predictor (Handschar)
Druze(366) 1% Palestinian Christians(44) 2% Alaouites(104) 2% Assyrian (106) 2% Irak Jews (79) 0% Iran Jews (49) 4% Armenians (1147) 4% Niraq Jews (99) 4% Yezidis (196) 2% Maronites (196) 0%  Yemen Jews (74) 3%    
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 06:51:58 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2012, 09:06:17 AM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....

Where is Gardmann?

Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2012, 01:17:19 PM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....

Where is Gardmann?

Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 01:22:28 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....
Where is Gardmann?
Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.

Does the paper or are there other papers that make this supposition?  Are they archaeological artifacts that attest to a movement of people from the Balkan Peninsula into this area of Anatolia?

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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2012, 04:21:36 PM »

Proportion of R1b in Near and Middle East, Anatolia and South Balkans

Ararat Valley 37,3% Gardmann 31,3% Lake Van 32% Sasun 15,4% W Turkey 13,5% Centre Turkey 19,1% East Turkey 12% Syria 3,7% Jordania 9,2% Liban 7,6% Iran 8,6% Caucasus 3,0% Greece 13% Macedonia 12,8%
Phokaia (31) 23% Smyrnia (58) 28% NeoNikomedia (57) 19% Sesklo/Dimini(57) 5% Lerna/Franchti(57) 16%   NW Anatolia(52) 12% Med Anatolia(33) 21%  Central Anatolia (90) 16% W Anatolia(30) 17% ....
Where is Gardmann?
Is there a commonality between the higher R1b frequency locations like Ararat Valley, Gardmann, Lake Van, Smyrnia and Phokaia?

According to the paper Gardman is in NW Azerbaidjan, . The samples  of Armenians of this town or originated from this town. With the Karabag war, there were a lot of displacements in 1990-1995.
Sasoun was an Armenian town at mid-distance between  Van Lake and Diarbekir.

For the commonaly between old Armenian areas and old Greek-Ionan/Eolian harbours was  both peoples Armenians and Ionians  were a mixture of IE arrivals from 3000BC  to 1000BC with the old Anatolian background.
I supposed J and G represented the old Anatolian background. For R1b-L23* is more difficult to distinguish, but at least, we can suppose a great part of IE migrations were composed of R1b-L23* Balkanics where they were indigenous and integrated like the main demographic component of IE cultures (After 4500/4000BC and before the Thraces) in Thrace, Macedoine,   and Lower Danube  between Belgrade and the mouthes, culturally and politically dominated by a small minority of initial IE herders  coming from Pontic Steppes and around the Tripolye towns.

Does the paper or are there other papers that make this supposition?  Are they archaeological artifacts that attest to a movement of people from the Balkan Peninsula into this area of Anatolia?



Well one of the most popular ideas is that the Hittites came from the Balkans or Caususes and they did at one stage rule all the lands of the early Assyrian empire.  Not sure of the details but at different stages they massively overlapped the same lands.  Its almost impossible to think the Hittites and other Anatolians were not IE through L23* because there is really no other option in the area.  If you buy into the Kurgan hypothesis and the idea that languages spread with genes then I supposee L23* almost has to be the smoking gun of IE and the Anatolian IEs and in turn if the Kurgan hypothesis is right and the linguists who see them as an early break off are right then L23* people must have been located to the north of Turkey somewhe.  I would imagine in the Kurgan theory that would really have had to place it somewhere like the Caucuses or in the Balkans or adjacent.  I quite fancy being collaterally related to the Hittites :0)
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2012, 04:25:14 PM »

and given that the Semetic Assyrians derive from the Akkadians of northern Mesopotamia it seems incredibly unlikely to me that they were the L23* source in the area.
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2012, 04:32:04 PM »

..and further Troy may have been Luwian speaking, another Anatolian IE language.  So maybe we can claim to cousins of the Trojans too!
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2012, 04:39:25 PM »

..and further Troy may have been Luwian speaking, another Anatolian IE language.  So maybe we can claim to cousins of the Trojans too!

We already have... or at least Nennius ("Historia Britonum") and Geoffrey ("Historia Regum Britanniae"), already have.    "The island of Britain derives its name from Brutus, a Roman consul" and "Brutus is the grandson or great grandson of Aeneas." "Aeneas settled in Italy after the Trojan War."  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

I guess that gives us the full Italo-Celtic connection.  Seriously, Is there any affinity between the Anatolian and Italic or Celtic language other than PIE?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 04:49:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2012, 10:32:26 PM »

and given that the Semetic Assyrians derive from the Akkadians of northern Mesopotamia...

This is an outdated notion, in my opinion. Combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years, is incorrect.  For instance, referring to the Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  Anatolian Turks speak a Turkic language. Do we refer to all of them as Turkic? Absolutely not.  Also, there is so much we have learned from archaeology, linguistics, etc., about Assyrians, Mesopotamia, and the region in general in the past decade or two, relying on old scholarship serves none of us well.

Two examples (of what are many), based on recent scholarship I believe demonstrate what I am trying to get at, in my reply above:

Simo Parpola. 2007c “The Neo-Assyrian Ruling Class,” in Thomas R. Kämmerer (ed.), Studien zur Ritual und Sozialgeschichte im Alten Orient / Studies on Ritual and Society in the Ancient Near East. Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, Bd. 374. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 257-274

Quote
Important changes had taken place in the composition of the imperial power elite. In the letter just quoted, the summoning of the sons of the old families to court is presented as a token of the king's love towards Nineveh; the writer thus reveals that the court positions, which the old family aristocracy traditionally held, were no longer renewed or self-evident. The writer tells us that when he recently saw the goddess Istar being carried in procession to her temple, he found no members of the old families of Nineveh among the carriers...

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Akkadian and Sumerian Language Contact

by Gábor Zólyomi

forthcoming in Stefan Weninger, ed., Semitic Languages. An International Handbook (HSK 36). Berlin — New York, Mouton de Gruyter, pp. 387–393

Quote
A distinctive development of Akkadian phonology is the gradual merger and loss of the five reconstructed Proto-Semitic ‘guttural’ consonants */!/, */h/, */hø /, */"/, and */g/ by the 2nd millennium B.C.E. (cf. GAG § 23; Huehnergard 1998, 38!40, 587; Kouwenberg 2006). As Sumerian had no such phonemes, this development has been considered a prime example of Sumerian substrate influence on Akkadian.

In the Babylonian dialect of Akkadian, the presence of the newly emerged /e/ in turn caused every /a/ in the stem and the pronominal affixes of the verb to change to /e/, a development known as ‘Babylonian Vowel Harmony’ (Kouwenberg 2001, 226). As a similar rule causing the assimilation of different vowels within a word played an important role in Sumerian (see Keetman 2005, 11!13), Keetman suggested that Babylonian Vowel Harmony might reflect the influence of Sumerian (2004, 11).

These developments started in about the 24th century B.C.E. and were completed by the first part of the 2nd millennium B.C.E. They therefore overlap in time with the period of assumed asymmetrical bilingualism. One is therefore tempted to assume that these phonological changes may in fact reflect the influence of a Sumerian speaking population gradually shifting to Akkadian. Hasselbach finds that contrary to expectations the orthography indicates the loss of gutturals and the phonemicization of /e/ in texts from the north first, but not from the south. She does, however, note the possibility that the Akkadian of the southern texts ‘might have been a learned literary language that was not native to this area’.

In addition to loanwords, there exist a number of Sumerian and Akkadian idioms which correspond to each other word for word, e.g. šag-še — gid = ana libbim šadadum ‘to consider earnestly’ (lit. ‘to draw to the heart’) (cf. Edzard 2003, 175!176).
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2012, 10:50:31 PM »

Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias

Quote
As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cambridge Prof. Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar [N Iraq]" (2008)

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colours in Late Bronze Mesopotamia. Some Hints on Wall Paintings from Dur Kurigalzu [Kassite], Nuzi [Mitanni] and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta [Middle Assyrian]

by Sara Pizzimenti

in: R. Matthews et al. (eds), Proceedings of the 7th ICAANE, 12-16 April 2010, the British Museum and UCL, London, Vol. 2, Wiesbaden 2012: 303-318.

Quote
Conclusions

A visual coherence given by an iconographic, chromatic and iconological equilibrium and symmetry is present both in the ornamental wall paintings at Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Iconographically the scene is composed following a principle of balance and symmetry. This balance has also a chromatic correspondence in a black/white and red/blue opposition, and an iconological correspondence in the male and female elements opposition, opposite de facto, with Adad and Ishtar in the Nuzi paintings and with the Ishtar’s double nature in those of Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Extremely different are the Dur Kurigalzu paintings, where there is not this principle of balance and opposition, but where the use of colour is no more ‘evocative’ but aims to imitate reality. Finally, it is possible to point out a conscious use of colour in all the Late Bronze Age wall paintings, according to the subject represented. A symbolic and ‘evocative’ use of colour seems to be preferred in ornamental wall paintings, while an imitation of reality is present in figurative ones.
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2012, 10:52:54 PM »

.... combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years.  Referring to the Neo-Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  ...

Please describe anything further you can about the population in these periods.  I've read of the multiple periods of Troy. I can see that this region had many conquerors.  It is quite possible that that R1b lineages were quite numerous during some phases in some regions of Anatolia, and were "conquerors" in one phase but "conquered" in the next.  That doesn't mean they weren't still numerous, or given great cause to migrate west into Europe.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 10:54:45 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2012, 11:33:03 PM »

.... combining the different Assyrian periods, some of which are separated by hundreds of years.  Referring to the Neo-Assyrians as "Semitic," when much of the territory conquered and made "Assyrian," following the demise of Mittani had been Hurrian-speaking for many centuries, serves only to confuse.  ...

Please describe anything further you can about the population in these periods.  I've read of the multiple periods of Troy. I can see that this region had many conquerors.  It is quite possible that that R1b lineages were quite numerous during some phases in some regions of Anatolia, and were "conquerors" in one phase but "conquered" in the next.  That doesn't mean they weren't still numerous, or given great cause to migrate west into Europe.

I have to get going, for a bit, but in the meantime, here are a few posts of mine from another forum (by no means exhaustive):

Hurrian as a living language in Ugaritic ["Semitic"] society
by Juan-Pablo Vita

D. A. Barreyra Fracaroli, and G. del Olmo Lete (eds.), Reconstructing a Distant Past. Ancient Near Eastern Essays in Tribute to Jorge R. Silva Castillo, Aula Orientalis-Supplementa 25, Sabadell – Barcelona 2009, 219-231.

From 1.6, of the paper:

Quote
All of the above allows us to assert that Hurrian is the second ethnic, linguistic and cultural component basic to the kingdom of Ugarit (Vita 1999: 456). The Hurrian texts found in Ras Shamra particularly show the importance of Hurrian religion and mythology in the cult of Ugarit. The Ugaritc pantheon includes, indeed, some deities which in all probability are Hurrian, such as Išḫara or Pidrayu, they also have their practical application in texts such as the Ugaritic ritual RS 24.260 (1.115) dedicated to Išḫara (ušḫr). The Hurrian pantheon itself is known in Ugarit thanks to canonical and ritual lists and, despite great difficulties in the proper understanding and interpretation of the texts, it is possible to attempt their reconstruction with the presence of deities such as Teššub, Kumarb/wi or Šawuška (Laroche 1968a: 518-527; 1968b; Mayer 1996; Dietrich – Mayer 1997; del Olmo 1999: 82-86).

Map, showing location of Ugarit (modern ~ Latakia Governorate, in NW Syria, bordering Turkey). Not from paper. The Latakia Governorate has an Alawite majority population:

http://score.rims.k12.ca.us/activity/mycenaean_Trace/media/MapUluBurun.gif

The Assyrian R1b modal is most similar to the Alawite R1b modal. Compare the ancestral homeland of the Alawites (orange), with the location of Ugarit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/syrian-uprising-one-year-of-bloodshed/images/alawitemap.jpg

N Mesopotamian (Assyrian and one Jewish man from Zakho)   
N=6   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30
N=1   12   23   12   11   11   15   12   12   12   13   14   28
N=1   12   24   13   11   11   14   12   12   13   13   14   30
N=1   12   24   13   10   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30
N=1   12   24   14   10   12   14   12   12   12   13   14   29
N=1   12   24   14   11   12   14   12   12   12   13   13   29
N=1   12   24   14   10   12   15   12   12   12   12   13   26
N=1   12   24   15   11   11   14   12   12   12   12   14   27
N=1   12   25   14   11   11   13   12   12   12   12   14   28
N=1   12   25   14   10   11   13   12   12   12   13   14   29
N=1   12   26   14   11   11   14   12   12   13   13   14   29
N=1   13   24   14   10   11   14   12   12   11   14   13   30
N=1   13   24   14   11   11   14   12   12   12   14   13   30

Alawite   
n=12   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=5   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=3   12   25   14   11   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=2   12   24   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=2   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   12   13   28
n=1   12   23   14   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   12   24   14   10   10   14   xx   xx   xx   12   13   29
n=1   12   24   14   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=1   12   24   14   11   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   12   24   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   13   13   29
n=1   12   25   14   12   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   13   24   14   10   11   15   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30
n=1   13   24   14   11   11   15   xx   xx   xx   15   13   31
n=1   13   24   14   11   10   15   xx   xx   xx   15   13   31
n=1   13   24   16   10   11   14   xx   xx   xx   14   13   30

Interesting OT tidbit:

Wikipedia -
Quote
The Hurrian songs are a collection of music inscribed in cuneiform on clay tablets excavated from the Hurrian city of Ugarit which date to approximately 1400 BC. One of these tablets, which is nearly complete, contains the Hurrian hymn to Nikkal (also known as the Hurrian cult hymn or A Zaluzi to the Gods, or simply h.6), making it the oldest surviving substantially complete work of notated music in the world. While the composers' names of some of the fragmentary pieces are known, h.6 is an anonymous work.

Hurrian Hymn played on a lyre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMbnj_Ei2A

"Michael Levy gives an interpretative rendition of the oldest known recorded hymn, a Hurrian melody."

The general area had been a stronghold of the Hittites (see below).  And also Luwian, Phoenician, and Aramaic-speaking Neo-Hittites in the 1st millennium BCE.

Wikipedia:
Quote
Teshub was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun, although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.

Aleppo [Halap] had cultic importance to the Hittites for being the center of worship of the Storm-God.

When the Hittite kingdom collapsed in the 12th century BC, Aleppo became part of the Aramaean Syro-Hittite kingdom of Arpad (Bit Agusi), and later it became capital of the Aramaean Syro-Hittite kingdom of Hatarikka-Luhuti.

In the 9th century BC, Aleppo was conquered by the Assyrians and became part of the Neo-Assyrian Empire until the late 7th century BC, before passing through the hands of the Neo-Babylonians and the Achamenid Persians.


"His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun, although this name is from the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer."  Compare with "Thor."
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Beyond Aššur: New Cities and the Assyrian Politics of Landscape

by Ömür Harmansah (2012)
Joukowsky Institute for Archaeology and the Ancient World
Brown University

Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research 365: 53-77.

Quote
Tarbisu is usually identified with the modern site of Sherif Khan, northwest of Nineveh, and Kaḫat with Tell Barrī. The famous temple of the Hurrian weather god Tešhub at Kaḫat (Tell Barrī) was restored by Šalmaneser I (Pecorella 1990: 55).

NW of Nineveh, in N Iraq, is extremely close to the center point of Dr. McDonald's average (green) spots for Assyrians.  

Again, there is much more to be said on this topic, based on recent scholarship.  
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:54:33 PM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2012, 01:07:15 AM »

A Sealed Double Cremation at Middle Assyrian Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria

Peter Akkermans & E. Smits (2008)

In: D. Bonatz, R.M. Czichon & F.J. Kreppner (eds.) Fundstellen – Gesammelte Schriften zur Archäologie und Geschichte Altvorderasiens ad honorem Hartmut Kühne. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag (2008), pp. 251-261.

Quote
Recent excavation at Tell Sabi Abyad in Syria has exposed a very substantial part of a Middle Assyrian fortified farmstead or dunnu, dated ca. 1225-1120 BCE. From its foundation early in the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I, the dunnu was maintained by a number of high-ranking officials affiliated with the Assyrian royal house and each bearing the titles of “grand vizier” and “king of Ḫanigalbat”: successively, Aššur-iddin, Šulmānu-mušabši and Ilī-padâ.

An extraordinarily rich cremation which dates somewhere between 1180-1140 BCE (building level 4) and which must be associated with the local administration at the site. So far, 38 graves have been uncovered in the dunnu at Tell Sabi Abyad, of which 29 were inhumations and nine were cremations.

The cylinder-seal impression* on the obverse of the sealing shows a galloping, winged horse followed by a foal (fig. 1), produced in the typical Middle Assyrian iconographic style of the 12th century BCE (see e.g. Matthews 1990, 1992).

Special attention is drawn to the presence of the (burnt) third phalange of a lion, which points to the inclusion of a lion-skin cloak on the funeral pyre. The dead may either have rested upon the skin or it may have covered them as a shroud. This find recalls the occurrence of bear claws in Neolithic cremation graves in northwestern Europe (see e.g. Parker Pearson 1999: 7; Smits 2000).

The richness of finds in this grave is remarkable, when taking into account that almost all other cremations at Tell Sabi Abyad contained either simply a small number of beads or no goods at all (there is only one other cremation with a comparable inventory; cf. Akkermans/Wiggermann, in print). Before it was stated that this cremation contained the burnt remains of two young adults – a man and a woman. Both persons must have died at more or less the same time and both were subsequently cremated and buried together. In view of their sex and age, it is tempting to consider them as spouses, tied to each other both in the terrestrial world and in the hereafter. Although the dead remain unknown to us, they undeniably must have been people of status and wealth. Moreover, the clay sealing with its typical Middle Assyrian representation suggests that they (or their mourners who carried out the burial) were affiliated with the Assyrian administration at Tell Sabi Abyad. Further proof in this respect is provided by the location of the grave in the immediate vicinity of the buildings of the living – it is unlikely that any outsiders to the local community were allowed to bury their dead here. The burial vessel, too, is entirely of Middle Assyrian style and origin in terms of shape and finish, as is the jewellery found in it (see e.g. Ohuma/Numoto 2001). In short, there can be no doubt that both the dead and their mourners were part of the local community at Tell Sabi Abyad, the more so if we take into account the sheer magnitude and obvious visibility of the practice of cremation: The burning and burial were not individual acts but involved the entire community. Somewhere on the site there must have been a large funeral pyre, on which the deceased were placed together, fully dressed and equipped with adornments and covered by a lion-skin cloak. A ram was slaughtered for the occasion and its meat was consumed by the mourners either shortly before or during the fire; the remains were thrown into the flames. After the corpses had been burnt, the remains selected for burial from the surface of the extinguished pyre were stored in an urn which was subsequently covered and sealed and finally buried in a specific area very close to the houses of the living.

* "Fig. 1...[R]econstruction of the seal impression."

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/middle_assyrian_cremation_seal_reconstruction.jpg

The location:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/figure1big.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fortress of Ili-pada.
Middle Assyrian architecture at Tell Sabi Abyad, Syria
Peter M.M.G. Akkermans (2006)

In: P. Butterlin, M. Lebeau, J.-Y. Monchambert, J. Montero & B. Muller (eds.), Les espaces Syro-Mésopotamiens. Dimensions de l’expérience humaine au Proche-Orient ancien. Turnhout: Brepols (2006), pp. 201-211.

Quote
The fortress had many faces...: it was a military outpost on the western frontier of Assyria; it was an administrative center in control of the westernmost province of the kingdom; and it provided custom facilities on the route from Carchemish to the Assyrian capital of Assur.

However, it was not only the interests of the Assyrian state but also the private interests of the Assyrian officials themselves that were served at Sabi Abyad. For much of its lifetime, the fortress was in the hands of Ili-pada*, grand vizier of Assyria, viceroy of Hanigalbat, member of one of the most prominent lineages of Assyria, and related to the royal family. The stronghold was Ili-pada's rural estate, used by him for the agricultural exploitation of many dozens of square kilometres in the Balikh valley and elsewhere. The occurrence of texts belonging to Assur-iddin, Ili-pada's father and likewise grand vizier, suggests that the estate had been family property for a long time; it may have served as the family's power base in the province, which presented them with the revenues to finance their private court in the capital and to support their political ambitions.

*

Wikipedia :

Quote
Two of his [Ili-pada] sons were to follow him in attaining high office. Mardukija became governor of Katmuḫi and served his term as limmu early, during the reign of Aššur-dan I, his nephew and Ilī-padâ’s grandson. Ninurta-apal-Ekur, after a period stationed in Babylonia, presumably on official business, was to triumph in his campaign to succeed Enlil-kudurri-usur as Assyrian King, thereby establishing a royal line that endured until at least the eighth century.

The Assyrian King's list, beginning with Ili-pada's son, mentioned above:

Ninurta-apal-Ekur (1182 BCE to 1180 BCE) --> Ashur-dan I --> Ninurta-tukultī-Aššur --> Mutakkil-Nusku --> Ashur-resh-ishi I --> Tiglath-Pileser I --> Asharid-apal-Ekur --> Assur-bel-kala --> Eriba-Adad II --> Shamshi-Adad IV --> Ashurnasirpal I --> Shalmaneser II --> Ashur-nirari IV --> Ashur-rabi II --> Ashur-resh-ishi II --> Tiglath-Pileser II --> Ashur-dan II --> Adad-nirari II --> Tukulti-Ninurta II --> Ashurnasirpal II --> Shalmaneser III --> Shamshi-Adad V --> Adad-nirari III --> Shalmaneser IV --> Ashur-dan III --> Ashur-nirari V (755 BCE to 745 BCE). The line is broken by Tiglath-Pileser III.
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The Archaeology of Death and Burial (1999)
by Mike Parker Pearson

page 7

I do not know why the author in the Assyrian Cremations article is referring to the European bear claws as Neolithic. Unless it is the "Smits" source one must refer to.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/R-L584/pearson_cremation.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps of no connection:

Wikipedia on Hercules:

Quote
To kill the Nemean lion
The Nemean lion was a large ferocious monster with a hide that could not be pierced by any weapon.[5] This made it near impossible to kill, but Hercules managed to strangle the monster with his bare hands, using his unusual strength. After he had strangled the lion, he used one of its claws to skin the monster and he wore the hide, which retained its magical properties, until his death.


Please Note: Mentioning similarities does not necessarily equate to an east to west transmission.  
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 01:30:27 AM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2012, 01:48:04 AM »

More ( royal ? ) Assyrian cremation sites:

Archaeologists from Mainz University uncover ancient governor's palace in Turkey

International excavation project discovers hitherto undisturbed cremation sites


21.10.2008

Quote
Within the scope of an international rescue excavation project, a team of four archaeologists specialized in Middle Eastern affairs headed by Dr. Dirk Wicke (Institute of Egyptology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies) have unearthed parts of a Neo-Assyrian governor's palace dating back to the 9th to 7th cent. B.C. in a two-month excavation program amongst the ruins on Ziyaret Tepe. The discoveries were extraordinary. The site in the south-east of Turkey (Diyarbakir province) is at risk from the construction of the Ilisu Dam.

But the most unusual discovery was the excavation of cremations in pits within the extensive courtyard area. Five installations have been found to date, two of which were undisturbed and contained opulent burial goods. In the rectangular graves of approximately 1.50 m x 2.00 m in size, for example, a considerable layer of ash and burned bones as well as numerous bronze vessels, sumptuous stone and ivory receptacles, carved ivory objects, seals, and beads were found. These items indicate the high status of the people buried here. They are believed to have been residents of the palace. These objects are very similar to those found in the Assyrian capitals of Assur and Kalhu/Nimrud in modern day Iraq.
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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 03:06:44 AM »

A 2,900-year-old gravestone from the ancient kingdom of Sam'al, located in what is today southeastern Turkey, has shed light on an ancient religious belief heretofore unknown.

Quote
Though the city of Sam'al was influenced by local Semitic cultures in many ways - including their language - Kuttamuwa and Panamuwa are names that show the Indo-European cultural influence. Also, Kuttamuwa was cremated, a practice shunned by Semitic tribes of that era. Apparently Kuttamuwa had his stele made while he was still alive, and last summer the archeological team found it, translating its inscription like this (there are question marks for translations they aren't sure of yet):

"I, Kuttamuwa, servant of Panamuwa, am the one who oversaw the production of this stele for myself while still living. I placed it in an eternal chamber(?) and established a feast at this chamber(?): a bull for [the storm-god] Hadad, ... a ram for [the sun-god] Shamash, ... and a ram for my soul that is in this stele."

Written in an alphabet derived from Phoenician, the language is a West Semitic dialect similar to Aramaic and Hebrew.

According to archeologist Schloen: "Kuttumuwa's inscription shows a fascinating mixture of non-Semitic and Semitic cultural elements, including a belief in the enduring human soul-which did not inhabit the bones of the deceased, as in traditional Semitic thought, but inhabited his stone monument, possibly because the remains of the deceased were cremated. Cremation was considered to be abhorrent in the Old Testament and in traditional West Semitic culture, but there is archaeological evidence for Indo-European-style cremation in neighboring Iron Age sites."
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:07:17 AM by Humanist » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 04:34:11 AM »

I mention the Kuttamuwa stele (with picture) on my page on megalithic monuments.
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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 05:35:23 AM »

Tell Nader Project / Tell Baqrta Project (2011)
Dr. Konstantinos Kopanias

Quote
As literacy dawns over the horizon of prehistory the first ethnic group whom we know to have inhabited the region [Arbil and its environs] are the Hurrians. This is not to say there were not other groups. There almost certainly were. Texts over these millennia relating to the eastern frontiers of Mesopotamia (for instance Ur III administrative documents and the Shemshara archives) contain a large number of personal names whose linguistic affiliation has not yet been established and it is, in my view, probable that parent languages will one be day be recognised and reconstructed for at least some of them. Be that as it may, the Hurrians are the earliest definable group for whose presence in the region we currently have evidence; followed closely by the Sumerians.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cambridge Prof. Geoffrey Khan. "The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar [N Iraq]" (2008)

Quote
As already shown by Krotkoff (1985: 124–126), a number of lexical items in the NENA [Northeastern Neo-Aramaic] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colours in Late Bronze Mesopotamia. Some Hints on Wall Paintings from Dur Kurigalzu [Kassite], Nuzi [Mitanni] and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta [Middle Assyrian]

by Sara Pizzimenti

in: R. Matthews et al. (eds), Proceedings of the 7th ICAANE, 12-16 April 2010, the British Museum and UCL, London, Vol. 2, Wiesbaden 2012: 303-318.

Quote
Conclusions

A visual coherence given by an iconographic, chromatic and iconological equilibrium and symmetry is present both in the ornamental wall paintings at Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Iconographically the scene is composed following a principle of balance and symmetry. This balance has also a chromatic correspondence in a black/white and red/blue opposition, and an iconological correspondence in the male and female elements opposition, opposite de facto, with Adad and Ishtar in the Nuzi paintings and with the Ishtar’s double nature in those of Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta. Extremely different are the Dur Kurigalzu paintings, where there is not this principle of balance and opposition, but where the use of colour is no more ‘evocative’ but aims to imitate reality. Finally, it is possible to point out a conscious use of colour in all the Late Bronze Age wall paintings, according to the subject represented. A symbolic and ‘evocative’ use of colour seems to be preferred in ornamental wall paintings, while an imitation of reality is present in figurative ones.

The posts of Humanist are interesting but needs a serious knowledge of ancient Middle East to be understood at least a little.
A critic to introduce: the subject of the changes of palace styles in a topic  about population history and genetics is about the palaceS/ arts styles, they can be useful to know some population moves, but not sure, in the  empires,  it can be without relation with population moves, it is only the sign of a political and military change.In History and modern times, we can find a lot of population moves reverse of the sense of the empire expansions

When Humanist did the citation for  paintings about  Nuzi and Kar-Tukulti-Ninurta, it needs to know Nuzi is the old Kirkouk (or near Kirkouk) east of Tigre (limit of present Arabe/Kurdish separation line with the nowadays problems we can guess)  and was an important Hourrite/Mittani town while Tukulti-Ninurta was an Assyrian conquesting  king of 12th century and his palace in the old assyrian country between Assour and Ninive along the Tigre.

As the present Arab/Turkish, Turkisk/Kurdish and Arab/Kurdish lines have been mixed and fluctuated, The Hourrite/Semitic line in the  BC times was complex. Roughly from Ougarit in Med coast to Nuzi (Zagros borders) thru Alep, Karkemish (Euphrate river), Hani-Galbat (between Euphrate and Tiger with Singar Hills), Ninive/Mossoul country (Tigre river) and  then south of Arbeles and Nouzi/Kirkouk country. Regions with different dominant powers since Ourouk phase.
The Ourouk/Sumerian  town of Habirah about 3200/3000BC
The Semitic kingdoms of Ebla, Alep and Mari about 2700-2400BC
The Semitic-Akkadian empire of Sargon/Naramsin about 2400-2200BC
After Guti invasion and first Elamite raids, the Sumerian/Akkadian empire of Ur-3 ab out 2150-2000BC
A confuse time before Hammourabi (Akkadian-Babylone) between 2000 and 1750 with new Elamite raids, Semitic-Amorrites invasions  and their formations of small kingdoms (Isin, Mari, Babylone, Larsa, Eshnunna,  and first Assyrian kingdom).
First Babylonian empire founded by Hammourabifrom 1750 to 1600.
Kassite and Mittani (Both with IE  Indo-aryan kings but vague-defined populations, mostly Hourrites) migrations from Iran. Expansion from first Hittite empire from 1600 to 1500 with Hattusil and Mursil I killed by his son-in-law right after Mursil capture of Babylone (1500av JC)
From 1500, establishment of Mittani kingdom in Hanni-Galbat and Kassite kingdom at Babylone with expanding and shriking empires until 1300 for Mittani and 1150 for Kassite with continuous  struggles against  Hittites, Assyrians and Elamites plus against Egyptians for Mittani and first Semite-Chaldeans at the end of the Kassite kingdom.

From 1400 to 1200, new Hittite empire and from 1300 to 1100 Assyrian expansion.  Small semite kingdoms in Syria/Palestine, Amorrites and Cananeans tributaries of Hittites and Egyptians.
1220-1100 invasions of Sea peoples in Med, of Phygians/Armenians,  Mosches (Muski) and   Bithynian/Mysian Thraces in Anatolia from Europe, Arameans in Syria and Irak from desert borders, first Irano-aryans in Iran from North-East. Destruction of Hittite, Assyrian, Kassite and Egyptian empires, Ougarit and a lot of other towns. First presence of nomads/mercenaries the Habirus (ancestors of Hebraic tribes?)
1100-800 a lot of small kingdoms Moab, Ammon, Philistins, Juda, Israel, Phenician cities,  Aramean kingdoms in South Syrian, Neo-Hittites (in fact Semites/Hourrites) kingdoms in North Syrian and South-East Anatolia.
900-600 Last Assyrian empire and progressive conquests or putting tributaries of the small kingdoms and independant towns. Forced population moves probably exagerated by Bible and texts of Assyrian kings. everly struggles againt Ourarteans, Medes, Arabs and Elamites.
Progression of IE tribes in Anatolia (Armenians, Phrygians, Lydians) and Iran (Medes, Perses, other Iiranian tribes,  Cardurci (initial core of Kurds?) ? Kissians (Kassites?))
600-550 Neo-Babylonian and Median empires
550-330 Persian empire
300-130 Seleucid empire
130-64 Syrian seleucid kingdom, growth of Roman and Parthian empires.
From 63BC to 640AD disputed border of Roman and Parthian/Perse Sassanids empires.
From 640 to 1000 Damas Omedyad, then Bagdad Abbasid empires.
900-1250 Fragmentation of Abbasid power, turkish invasions : turkish, kurdisk, armenian, georgian, crossed, ismaelite kingdmoms,
1200-1320 Mongol power in Iran and Irak. Mamelouks in Levant, Ottoman in Anatolia,
Byzantine empire shrank until the end in 1453.
1320 Tamerlan/Timour Lenk
1350 to 1918 Ottoman empire. sometimes in concurrence with Iranian Sefevid kingdom.    

In a very rough image, population and languages were the subject of 5 forces
1) An indigenous centrale force derived from Ourouk phases which Sumerians heritate.

2) A southern force from the desert borders represented by semitic-speaking tribes with dominating SW  J1 hg (to distinsguish of the caucasic J1 hg).

3) North West force coming from Anatolia and farther fromBalkans

4) North-East forces coming from Caucasus and borders represented by Hourrites, Ourarteans mainly, later  Scythians.

5) East forces coming from Iran. First before IE with Goutis, Lullubis, Elamites, ... then by Indo-Aryans (Mittanis, Kassites ?, ...), last by Irano-aryans (Medes, Perses, Parthes, ...)

It remains to define the change of hg frequencies according to the fluctuaction of these 5 force axes.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 06:10:07 AM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Humanist
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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 06:35:49 AM »

I mention the Kuttamuwa stele (with picture) on my page on megalithic monuments.

Thanks, Jean.  I am familiar with your site.  But I missed that one.  Thanks for the link. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2012, 07:35:22 PM »

I have been reading up a bit of copper and early bronze age Asia Minor and it seems it did not reach a stage of strong long distance trading and interaction and a uniformising of the culture until Ealry Bronze Age II which only commenced c. 2600BC.  Before then it was a fragmented, regionalised picture.  I think this would seem to decrease the option of Asia Minor as a likely immediate source for the spread of R1b west.  Yes it does have a pretty old looking L23 population but the archaeological picture (at least accordng to the new book by During 'The Prehistory of Asia Minor' does not make it seem a likely source of copper age or local early bronze age movements west.  It would tend to make me think that another subset of L23 is responsible for L51 and L11. 
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