World Families Forums - Assyrian Heritage DNA Project

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 26, 2014, 10:11:58 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Assyrian Heritage DNA Project
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Assyrian Heritage DNA Project  (Read 14444 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« on: July 06, 2010, 06:56:19 AM »

I was surprised to find a fairly high frequency of R1b1b2 in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project. It looks like much of it is probably P310-, but it is still interesting to find so much R1b1b2.

Ancient Assyria, of course, originated in northern Iraq on the upper Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The Assyrian Empire expanded from that center.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 07:09:49 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 08:18:39 AM »

This is very interesting. Would you happen to know a percentage of the Assyrian population that is R1b1b2?

That area has been the crossroads of different civilizations for millenia.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2010, 09:02:06 AM »

Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2010, 09:02:35 AM »

(The Motherland?)

In Recent News:

Mesopotamia’s civilization originated in Armenia
Unique discoveries revealed as a result of excavations at Shengavit (4000-3000 B.C.) confirm that Armenia is the motherland of metallurgy, jeweler’s art, wine-making and horse breeding.
(more..) http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/society/news/50844/

Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2010, 10:09:24 AM »

This is very interesting. Would you happen to know a percentage of the Assyrian population that is R1b1b2?

That area has been the crossroads of different civilizations for millenia.

I remember seeing some studies in the past but I didn't bookmark them. In the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project R1b1b2 is the most frequent group,  but the sample size is fairly small: 53 (including "Unassigned Members"). Of that number, 10 R1b1b2 are "Assigned Members" (there are 40 "assigned" members) and there are at least two more in the "Unassigned" category. That means 25% of the regular members of the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project are R1b1b2.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 10:16:42 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2010, 10:13:23 AM »

Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.

I don't know how you know that. One cannot tell it from looking at the Y-DNA Results page of the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project.

Besides, who claimed R1b1b2 originated in northern Iraq?

All I said in my original post is that the frequency of R1b1b2 in that project surprised me.

I do think it is likely that R1b1b2 originated in SW Asia somewhere, though.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2010, 10:46:56 AM »

Rich writes: "I don't know how you know that".

Two of them (Sahadi: 56/131176, Pera: 92/N20819) are in the "ht35 project" of Vizachero and are SNPs tested as R1b1b2a.
Many others are very closely related (see the very fast mutating markers DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa,b). If you want I'll probably be able to say when they arrived to Iraq, from where and how many were the founders.

The fact that there aren't upstream and downstream clades of R1b1b2a isn't in favour of a nearby origin of that haplogroup to Iraq, but the sign of a casual expansion in a precise frame of time.
Jews could think to the "exile" (if they will be able to demonstrate that this haplogroup was jewish at that time).
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2010, 12:15:37 PM »

Assyrian R1b1b2 are all R1b1b2a(L23+). The fact that they lack upstream clades (no R1b1b2* and less R1b1* etc.) isn't in favour of an origin of this haplogroup in that region.
R1b1b2a arrived there from elsewhere.


All I said in my original post is that the frequency of R1b1b2 in that project surprised me.

I do think it is likely that R1b1b2 originated in SW Asia somewhere, though.

I was also astonished to see that R1b1b2 out-manned R1a1, among other haplogroups in the project.

I am not too familiar with Assyrian history, other than knowing about the Parthian/Persian Empires that included its territory.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »

Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 02:48:47 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 08:25:09 AM »

Rich writes: "I don't know how you know that".

Two of them (Sahadi: 56/131176, Pera: 92/N20819) are in the "ht35 project" of Vizachero and are SNPs tested as R1b1b2a.
Many others are very closely related (see the very fast mutating markers DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, CDYa,b). If you want I'll probably be able to say when they arrived to Iraq, from where and how many were the founders.

The fact that there aren't upstream and downstream clades of R1b1b2a isn't in favour of a nearby origin of that haplogroup to Iraq, but the sign of a casual expansion in a precise frame of time.
Jews could think to the "exile" (if they will be able to demonstrate that this haplogroup was jewish at that time).

If you can tell us where they all came from, when, and how many original founders there were, go ahead. That would be interesting.

Personally, I still suspect you are saying too much based on too little information and assuming from a fairly small sample that there are no men among the Assyrians whose ancestors branched off upstream or downstream of L23.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 08:25:32 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 01:19:48 PM »

Sahadi and Pera are R1b1b2a (tested). Bacchus is R1b1b2a (tested), then are R1b1b2a also Paul and Oshana,
very close to him: the 5 markers I mentioned above: 15,18,17,36,36 / 15,18,17,36,36 / 15,18,17,34,35. Then
there is a R1b1b2a with DYS393=13 from 12.Then also Hurmis and Simon are R1b1b2a.
Nobody has DYS426 different from 12, then nobody is R1b1b2* nor R1b1b2/L51+.
The most different haplotypes are the first three, but they have DYS393=12 and DYS426=12: they are R1b1b2a.
They are of "Armenian" origin as haplotype, and Armenians are Indo-Europeans come to Caucasus I think from Europe,
but West Europe and not East: the Armenian haplotype is found also in West Europe, from Italy to the
British Isles.
Remember what I said about the origin not only of hg. R1b but also R1a from West Europe (I found the remnants in
the Rhaetian Region) and see what have said recently Argiedude about the most ancient R1a.
A very different haplotype from Iraq is that of Zebary I put on Ysearch with DYS452=28: all Western European
haplotypes have the modal 30.

For what I have said I think that these R1b1b2a are of ancient Western European origin linked with the expansion
of Indo-Europeans to the Caucasus and then to Iraq and Iran. They brought there the haplotype of that time, R1b1b2a,
and not the subclades not yet born.
If you look at the same site of the Assyrian data, you can se that the mtDNAs are mostly of Western European origin.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 01:23:50 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 07:02:31 PM »

Gioiello,

The idea that R1b1b2 originated in Western Europe and spread east seems to me indefensible, given the haplotype and SNP evidence. In fact, it is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates.

I didn't find your explanation of what you think you see in the Assyrian Heritage DNA Project all that convincing either. You seem to simply make assertions.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2010, 02:53:53 AM »

I did assertions and previsions (Assyrian R1b is R1b1b2a, and this can be verified): science
is previsions and verifications. I am waiting for an aDNA test and I think we all should be.
I have brought in these last years infinite previsions for my theory and you should ask who
stands behind yours: Vizachero, and which is his agenda. In favour of some of my theories has
brought some proofs Argiedude: see them. Argiedude has been offended by Vizachero.
Another who has his theories is Klyosov. I don't agree with him but I respect him, who is a great
chemist. Vizachero has offended him and you too and forced him to leave the forum (I hope temporarily).
I think we all should be more tolerant and wait for definite proofs: the aDNA test.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2010, 03:09:52 AM »

About the Assyrian mtDNA, this is a letter of one of the greatest expert over the world of hg. K (one of the Western hgs. in Iraq):

Hello Gioiello
Thank you for the note. I understand what you are saying - but your sequence is a normal K1a1b1 sequence and I have added it temporarily as '11a' to my webpage. http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/k1a1_genbank_sequences.htm The mutation G9932A is interesting as it matches that found in American sequence, and I think we can presume that sequence came from an Italian-American ! I would suggest that the Haplogroup K1a originated in Western Europe - with perhaps just the occasional person going East, whilst most spread over the whole of Europe. Best wishes Ian

 Dear Logan,
I thank you and I'll do what you said. Not being able to use my PC deeply, I can't do now an examination of my FGS, that is pretty the same I did know after the previous exams (SMGF, deCODEme, 23andME). I did FTDNA only by the low price and for being sure of my mutation on 11204 that already 23andME signalled me. Referring to what Hurst wrote to me yesterday ("I see 11204C in K1a1b in an Indian sequence on Dr. Behar's K tree. In the K Project, it appears only in four members of K2a, so that would have to be independent", pehaps Palanichamy 2004, p. 972) I ask you if it is possible that that Indian and me belong to the same haplogroup, but we have in common only this 11204 mutation, that could be hetheroplasmic and fixed only on our haplogroup. Then we could be a K1a1b from which was generated K1a1b1 and the K1a1b1a. I have always thought that Hg. K was born in the Italian Refugium, like U5b3 and U5a2, ad perhaps also N1b1 etc. and above all YDNA R1b1* to R-L51, and this becomes more and more reliable by these last findings. Of course many thousands of years separate me from this Indian, but I find my closest match on FTDNA in North/North East Europe, and probably nobody lived there during the LGM.
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni 
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Humanist
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2010, 03:26:05 AM »

Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

It is not disputed that the Assyrian ruling class was annihilated.  It is also not disputed that the Assyrian Empire, or any sovereign state going by that name, has, ever since the sacking of Nineveh, again come into existence.  

What is, however, very much disputed, is the contention that the Assyrian people themselves were totally and utterly vanquished.  I do not blame one for taking this as the gospel, seeing as it is regurgitated time and time again in many past and contemporary texts.  However many times it is repeated, though, makes it no less a fallacy.  The truth is that the Assyrian people survived the destruction of their state, and then as subjugated people of the many conquering powers that swept across the Fertile Crescent in the subsequent centuries.  Persian, Greek, and Roman references attesting to what I have just stated, are abundant.  For example, please refer to the accounts of Herodotus: http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.7.vii.html

The most powerful evidence, however, for the continuity of the Assyrian people from the destruction of their state through to the present is not from some ancient text, regardless of the irreproachability of it source.  The most powerful support for the continuity is in the Assyrian people of today.  Literally!  I can sit here and cite other apparently presumptive evidence for their continuity, such as the line of patriarchal succession of the Assyrian Church of the East since the very earliest days of Christianity.  Or the fact that to this day the Assyrian people have retained, as their vernacular the language of Jesus Christ --the lingua franca of the Assyrian Empire at the time of its collapse-- in its modern form, Neo-Aramaic.  Or the continual use of traditional Assyrian names and customs stretching as far back as the written record provides.  But, I digress.  The strongest argument that the Assyrians of today, are the Assyrians of antiquity, lies in their genetic identity.  We can all agree that from no one measure of a population's DNA can a conclusive opinion be drawn.  For example, based solely on mtDNA haplogroup/haplotype data.  But, what if a people were unique in not just their mtDNA haplogroup/haplotype data, but also in their Y-DNA and autosomal data?  Well, that is precisely what we have seen thus far with the Assyrians.  What is necessary, now, is for a reputable researcher to conduct a thorough examination of this question using modern DNA analysis tools.  

Now, to get to why I began this post in the first place, I wish to share with you all a phylogenetic tree of a number of R1b1b2a men, testing 67 markers. The cyan denotes Armenian samples. The sole Assyrian sample is denoted by the red marker. Green markers denote Jewish samples. The blue samples are from Vince Vizachero's project.  A couple of the samples are annotated.  All others are labeled by their FTDNA kit #s.  


http://wehrkreis.com/PH_runc.gif
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 03:30:49 AM by Humanist » Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2010, 08:26:49 AM »

Something to say on Volkov, signed as a Jew in your diagram and passed off as the origin of R1b1b2a.
There are many Volkov on Ysearch, one I put there from SMGF (NDZNC).
RMMP3 declares many surnames, also from maternal line, none of them seems Jewish (FALIKOV TOKMACHEV
ZHABOTINSKY VOLNIANSKY PUGACHEV KONONOV KACHKO FALIKOV). He says: "Additional information about Paternal Line:
My paternal line is less researched comparing to maternal, but as far as I know, my great-grandfather
came from Ekaterinoslavl (now Dnepropetrovsk). I am researching on my all lines and have more data (up
to mid 16th century) in other ancestors. My mather's paternal ancestors came from Bessarabia (Falikov
and Genesin), maternal from Volhinia (Volniansky), and Rzhev (Tver county in Russia)".
5MMP3 is R1b1 (tested). MKGW3 as unknown. FP4EJ (Volkov/Burney) as R1b1b2a1b. NDNZC, tested by SMGF and
having DYS461=11, I can say R1b1b2a. The only thing unknown seems the paternal origin, anyway he matches
above all Western Europeans.
In a previous exam I did on DYF471, I think having demonstrated that Volkov isn't at the origin of this
haplogroup but the most derived.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2010, 05:22:00 AM »

Actually watching the Volkov's site www.avolkov.com/gen a Jewish line in his family
there is: Falikov/Gnesin. That Volkov has been a Russification of Falikov is also
likely. At 12 markers he matches above all Jews, but with DYS426=12. The unique with DYS426=10
is a Cuban (Perez: R9BQA) and we can also hypothesize that he is a descendant of Marranos
from Spain and the mutation of DYS426 from 12 to 10 a SNPlike mutation.
But on YHRD this haplotype seems rooted in Slavs from Central Europe, then the most ancient
Slavs in their Fatherland.
As to attribute this haplotype to Europeans or to Jews is important for the history of hg. R1b1b2a
I think that more inquires are needed.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2010, 04:16:13 AM »

Comparing the Ht35 Modal haplotype (WHUFZ), the closest is Romitti (PWN78): GD of 5 over 70.
Then I suggest that the node of the diagram of Humanist is where Romitti (N37658) and  Skoda (118282) depart. Another point for Italy, I think.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 05:51:52 AM »

Dear Humanist, your mitochondrial is H2b and not HV4, even though you have the key-mutation T7094C.
It isn't older than 7000 years. Probably the closest found so far is from Ireland (see TDA4S: an Italian-American but from an Irish mother, but we should have her coding region).
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2010, 06:08:25 AM »

Probably H2a2a watching Phylotree.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 2158


« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2010, 07:54:47 AM »

Yes, of course the river flows from the source (CRS): then HV4.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Humanist
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 121


« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2010, 09:18:29 PM »

Hi Maliclavelli.  Yes, you are correct.  I am indeed HV4.  FGS confirmed. 
Logged

NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2010, 01:12:18 PM »

Ah, another HV4! We are not common these days, my friend. My MDKA is from Avellino, Campania, Italy.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2010, 03:13:21 PM »

Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

wern't the Hittites (from anotolia)  the previous big guns in the area before their empire and out pose went as far as canaan
they spoke indo-european created a massive milatary fort/city Hattush in the middle of nowhere
they according to some sorces were a 'brotherhood' of soldier
totaly male dominated cocerned with having as many sons as possable to boost their ranks of lotale soldiers  then disappeared without a trace after a civil war/ family bust-up (seemingly the same thing in this case)
could be we found where they went .
Logged
MHammers
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2010, 05:34:45 PM »

Wasn't the Assyrian kingdom destroyed by the Medes and Cimmerians (both IE related) in the 600's BC.  As to R1b1b2, it is probably much older in SW Asia, but later incoming groups like the Medes could have brought another layer as Indo-Europeans.  

wern't the Hittites (from anotolia)  the previous big guns in the area before their empire and out pose went as far as canaan
they spoke indo-european created a massive milatary fort/city Hattush in the middle of nowhere
they according to some sorces were a 'brotherhood' of soldier
totaly male dominated cocerned with having as many sons as possable to boost their ranks of lotale soldiers  then disappeared without a trace after a civil war/ family bust-up (seemingly the same thing in this case)
could be we found where they went .

The Hittites had their empire in Anatolia, but their language was probably from the north.  They absorbed alot of the Hatti people (non-IE) when they invaded.  It is not clear as to what dna is actually IE and/or Hittite in Turkey today.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 05:36:27 PM by MHammers » Logged

Ydna: R1b-Z253**


Mtdna: T

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.132 seconds with 19 queries.