R-P312+ et al tracking

[Mikewww]

Vince V. took the Myres data and created a couple of maps based on variance.  When he posted this he said he didn't trust the dates, but wanted to show the variances relative to geography.  Here is his P312 map.

http://www.4shared.com/photo/FR6sW3T2/R-P312_Myres_Var_Map_by_Vizach.html

This actually matches nicely with the DNA project data.  The Alps and west into SE France are the areas of highest variance (and diversity.)  I think countries to the east might have higher variance but the sample sizes are very low and you have special groups like the Ashkenzi Jews that need to be accounted for.

These are from another forum but I think they are important points and Vince said it was okay to quote him.

Long story short, the time from the MRCA of R-L51 to the MRCA of R-L11 was probably not terribly long: certainly fewer than 25 generations, and likely fewer than 10.

Calculating the modal haplotypes for R-L11*, R-P312, and R-U106 is easy to do, and it clearly reveals what I said earlier to be true: each of the three is a 49/51 match with the other three (considering just single-copy markers). The common ancestor of R-L11 lived within 60 to 600 years of the three subclade MRCAs with 95% probability.

So really there are three plus brothers of a sort, P312, U106 and the undefined Western L11* that expanded quickly and therefore probably originated not too far from each other.  

They must have had some common technological, social or genetic advantages at the time.

[Maliclavelli]

Mike, I am learning by your quotes the Vizachero’s thought, but, as he was wrong till yesterday (he failed all his theories), he is wrong now and probably will be wrong in the future. He will be wrong by the simple thing that he should accept the true explications other gave (me) and he can’t. Where has gone his theory of the Middle Eastern origin of R1b1b2? And his few thousands of years? You say “he didn’t trust the date”, then what is he speaking about? He must deny the Italian origin of R1b1b2 (that which is the ancestor of all the Western European ones), even though now a little part of Italy (Western Alps) he is constrained to put in the core region of origin. In what is he wrong now? In not saying that R-L51 is centered in Italy (see Argiedude’s map), that also R-L11 is centered in Italy  and that R-U106 and R-P312 were expanding out of Italy (Eastwards and Westwards). That there are “60 to 600 years” among R-L51 and these three subclades (R-L11, R-U106 and R-P312) is a little believable, having cumulated R-L11 five known SNPs, and not having he ever accepted my theory that every “modal” is due to the fixation of mutations happened around the modal of the previous clade and it is misleading to count only the mutations fixed, not knowing we the others that have mutated around the modal. These haplogroups had really a genetic advantage: they were Italian.

[Mikewww]

....  and not having he ever accepted my theory that every “modal” is due to the fixation of mutations happened around the modal of the previous clade and it is misleading to count only the mutations fixed, not knowing we the others that have mutated around the modal. ....

I'm lost a bit on what you are saying here.  Are you saying that the various haplogroups have a set of STR alleles (values) that tend to revolve around the modal and are biologically pulled/held at or near the modals?  Please clarify.

[Maliclavelli]

I'm lost a bit on what you are saying here.  Are you saying that the various haplogroups have a set of STR alleles (values) that tend to revolve around the modal and are biologically pulled/held at or near the modals?  Please clarify.

I said this many years ago. I was saying this when I was banned from “dna-forums” in replying to Ken Nordtvedt: it was the end of 2008. We see that in R1b1b2 and subclades, for instance DYS426, a very slow mutating marker, has mutated many times from R1b1 to the most recent subclades. How is it possible that it has mutated many times and other markers, fast mutating ones, are always the same? Because I think that markers mutate above all around the modal and sometimes they go for the tangent, and we have the “outliers”. Any clade is born with some values at a marker and these values are by chance, then tend to be around the modal and only sometimes different from it, if the marker is fast mutating or if, by chance, has a mutation for the tangent and not around the modal. Then every clade is a modal of itself. We don’t know how many mutations a marker has had if is the same of a previous modal, but if R1b1* has DYS426=12, if  R1b1b2* has 11, if R1b1b2a has 12, if R-L51* has 13, if R1b1b2a1b  has 12 etc, probably it isn’t reliable that other markers, most mutating of this, are  always the same.
I wrote this many times also to Klyosov, who is a great chemist, and was snubbing a little me, but now is a “desaparecido”.