World Families Forums - New TMRCA's from Anatole Klyosov - L21 subclades

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 21, 2014, 01:25:47 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  New TMRCA's from Anatole Klyosov - L21 subclades
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: New TMRCA's from Anatole Klyosov - L21 subclades  (Read 3507 times)
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2010, 07:20:10 PM »

I have been wondering if any R-L21 guys could have made any of the barbed and tanged flint arrow heads found in, or near the British Isles.

(Guernsey)
These flints were deposited between about 2700 and 2400 BC. All eight are of the same 'barbed and tanged' design.  
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/8sH08onoRzeDg-MW8vpjqg

The dark flint is from the plain of Caen, in Normandy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen

The amber flint came from the region of Grand Pressigny, in western France.
Flint from this location was highly prized in prehistoric Europe, and exported widely.
http://bing.search.sympatico.ca/?q=Grand%20Pressigny&mkt=en-ca&setLang=en-CA

That is approx 4400-4700 years ago. L21  looks a little young.  What do you think?
I beieve the Amesbury Archer was estimated 4300 years old and his grave goods included barbed and tanged flint arrowheads also. And beaker pottery.
http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/finds/recon_beaker.html

This led me to think that during that time.. L21 was possibly not the dominant haplogroup  in western Europe.

Unless it is older than 3725±380 ybp

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

(copied from post #1)

U106 (slightly mutated)
4175±430 ybp

P312
3950±400 ybp

U152 (slightly mutated)
4125±450 ybp

L2 (slightly mutated)
4225±450 ybp

L20 (slightly mutated)
4300±610 ybp

L21
3725±380 ybp
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 07:26:18 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


aklyosov
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2010, 08:13:26 AM »

I have been wondering if any R-L21 guys could have made any of the barbed and tanged flint arrow heads...These flints were deposited between about 2700 and 2400 BC... in Normandy....in western France...That is approx 4400-4700 years ago. L21  looks a little young.  What do you think?
I beieve the Amesbury Archer was estimated 4300 years old and his grave goods included barbed and tanged flint arrowheads also. And beaker pottery.
This led me to think that during that time.. L21 was possibly not the dominant haplogroup  in western Europe. Unless it is older than 3725±380 ybp

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

(copied from post #1)

U106 (slightly mutated)
4175±430 ybp


4400-4700 ybp was at the beginning of the Bell Beaker movement from Iberia, as far as I remember. Correct me please if I am wrong. If so, the dating of 4700 ybp in Normandy for the beakers might be a liiiiitle stretch.

Anyway, there are some different explanations. First, 4700-4500 ybp in the Isles might well be NOT R1b1b2. As we all know (I hope) there were settlements in the Isles dated as old as 6000 ybp. In my "book" they were I1/I2 and/or R1a1.  The first were in Europe at least 25,000 ybp (and earlier, probably as long as 40,000 ybp), the second (R1a1) were in Europe 12-10,000 ybp.

Second, 4700-4400 ybp (more likely the second date) in France were the R1b1b2 Bell Beakers on their way from Iberia. In my same "book" they crossed Gibraltar around 4800 ybp as L23 and/or P312, moved to the North being pushed by E1b1b, reached France around 4500-4400 ybp as L21 and then spread across Europe as L21 and its subclades. Those were the Beakers and their descendants. Now the oldest common ancestor of the present-day L21 is determined as 4200+/-500 ybp in France.

Other routes of R1b1b2 to Europe brought subclades of R1b1b2, parallel to P312, such as U106 and other subclades of L51, P310, P311, U198, etc.

What can be in direct contradiction with the above concept, I wonder. By "contradiction" I do not mean "opinions". I mean FACTS.

And, yes, that "slightly mutated" thing was taken out of context in my paper. It was about the base haplotype of the respective clade, which was slightly mutated compared to that of P312 and L21.

Anatole Klyosov
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:14:24 AM by aklyosov » Logged

R1a1

Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.108 seconds with 18 queries.