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Author Topic: R1b is too vague. Looking for Italian ancestry subgroup  (Read 7483 times)
pirainl
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« on: June 22, 2010, 10:59:32 PM »

I recvd results from an ancestry.com dna test and the results showed r1b. There are close matches with people who seem to mostly have descended from England, Ireland, Germany area but I have been able to trace my ancestry to a remote area in eastern Italy for hundreds of years. Is it possible to get a closer look at a sub-group? I do understand that the test is a deep look into your ancestry but I didn't not expect this. My results were:

dys19a  14
dys385a  11
dys385b  14
dys388  12
dys389I  13
dys389II  29
dys390  25
dys391  10
dys392  13
dys393  13
dys426  12
dys437  14
dys438  12
   439  12
   441  14
   442  17
dys444  12
445  12
446  13
447  24
448  20
449 29
452  32
454  11
455  11
456  17
458  18
459a  9
459b 10
460  11
461  12
462  11
463  24
464a  15
464b  15
464c  16
dys464d  17
ggaat1b07  10
ycaii  19
ycaiib  23
y-gata-a10  14
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 11:23:55 PM by pirainl » Logged

Lynne Piraino

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 12:55:19 AM »

Yours is a typical R1b1b2, probably some subclade of a1b..., but you have some rare mutations in some
slow mutating markers, then a SNP test would be interesting:

DYS390 from 24 to 25
DYS391 10 and not 11 (like the most ancient R1b1b2a)
DYS437 14 and not 15 (we can think to a R1b1b2a1b)
DYS441=14 and not 13 (like my R1b1b2a)
DYS452=32 and not the modal 30
DYS463=24 and not 23
Y-gata-A10=14 and not 13.

Probably you are an ancient and rare Italian R1b1b2a1b. Test the SNPs and let me know: we are finding these Italian
R1b1b2a1b, which could be the most ancient one.

I am the theorician of the Italian refugium:

Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2a (S136+), K1a1b1 (9932A).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 12:56:45 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 03:43:02 AM »

Also DYS442=17 is far from the modal. Remember my theory of the mutations around the modal and the ones gone by the tangent.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 03:48:52 AM »

DYS442=17 probably is a mistake, arriving SMGF to 16. See again or you must convert from ancestry.com to FTDNA or SMGF values. The modal is 12 and look at if 17 is a mistake for 12.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 03:58:02 AM »

I don't know and practice the ancestry.com values. For having some indications from me you should convert your data into the FTDNA ones. Anyway also on SMGF your data bring to the Anglo-Saxons world.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 04:20:41 AM »

The data that must be converted are: DYS441 from 14 to 13, DYS442 from 17 to 12, A10 from 14 to 12 and pretty nothing changes.
Anyway on SMGF nobody has your DYS 452=32: the modal is 30 and is a very low mutating marker for what I have seen in my researches.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

pirainl
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 12:08:08 PM »

I did recently read an essay on the ECHO Molise site regarding the area that we are from. They also suggested that this area is probably populated with Italy's oldest residents. I have joined the SMGF website and will look into a conversion. I'm very new to this so its all gibberish for now... Thank you for the input. Very interesting.

Not familiar with what SNP's are. Can you elaborate?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 12:11:09 PM by pirainl » Logged

Lynne Piraino

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 01:30:25 PM »

If you come from Molise, that is interesting. Speaking of East Italy one could undestand North-East Italy. Molise, apart some colonies from Balkans (Slavs and Albanians), is a very ancient Italian region and genetically very interesting, above all the mountaneous inner part.
I don't know if ancestry.com tests for SNPs (mutations that occur very rarely: about every 50,000 years) and define the haplogroups and subclades. If ancestry.com doesn't test for SNPs, you must apply to FTDNA or EthnoAncestry, but with a charge, not having they your DNA.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

pirainl
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 01:36:10 PM »

Entered info into SMGF and recvd these results:

Y-DNA Haplogroup: R-M207   Subgroup: R1b1b2*-M269

Looking into FTDNA and will keep you posted.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 01:37:18 PM by pirainl » Logged

Lynne Piraino

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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2012, 03:09:15 AM »

Yours is a typical R1b1b2, probably some subclade of a1b..., but you have some rare mutations in some
slow mutating markers, then a SNP test would be interesting:

DYS390 from 24 to 25
DYS391 10 and not 11 (like the most ancient R1b1b2a)
DYS437 14 and not 15 (we can think to a R1b1b2a1b)
DYS441=14 and not 13 (like my R1b1b2a)
DYS452=32 and not the modal 30
DYS463=24 and not 23
Y-gata-A10=14 and not 13.

Probably you are an ancient and rare Italian R1b1b2a1b. Test the SNPs and let me know: we are finding these Italian
R1b1b2a1b, which could be the most ancient one.

I am the theorician of the Italian refugium:

Gioiello Tognoni del Badia, R1b1b2a (S136+), K1a1b1 (9932A).


What is Italian Refugium?

My paternal and maternal lines for the past 200 plus years are from Veneto in North-East Italy. 
I am 100% european as per FTDNA and mr. Mcdonald tests,
I am T1a2b ( L446+)
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YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2012, 05:50:11 AM »

What is Italian Refugium?

My paternal and maternal lines for the past 200 plus years are from Veneto in North-East Italy.  
I am 100% european as per FTDNA and mr. Mcdonald tests,
I am T1a2b ( L446+)

“What is Italian Refugium?” you ask me. Seeing these posts I realize that much time passed, at least two years. Now I am not more R/L23/L150/S136 but R-Z2105+/L277-/L584- (S136 is a private mutation of my family line, probably very recent) and my mitochondrion isn’t more K1a1b1 (9932A) but K1a1b1e, probably born in Italy and expanded till the British Isles in these last thousands of years: one sample also amongst the 105 Tuscans in the 1KGP. And you aren’t more T1b, but T1a2b/L446+ (but you should test also L447).

When I began to interest me about this stuff, the European Refugia were three: 1) Franco-Cantabrian, 2) Balkan, 3) Ukrainian ones. Nobody spoke of Italy. Now many put the Italian Refugium amongst the others, not only for mtDNA U5b3 (demonstrated by peer reviews), but also for many other mtDNA hapogroups (I think having demonstrated the origin of many haplogroups from the Italian Refugium). The most important is probably R0a, believed born in Arabia or nearby and recently recognized “European” also from FTDNA. R0a is at the origin of HV, H etc, i.e. some of the most diffused European haplogroups. But the most important point of my theory is that also hg. R1b1 comes from the Italian Refugium (and probably also the first R1a, found in the Alpine Zone and the Isles and practically absent in the places where its subclades are now more diffused). The writings of the great French scholar Ferembach demonstrated already some decades ago that the Iberomaurusians came to Africa from Italy 24,000YBP, and this could be the demonstration of all my theories, not only about R1b1-V88+ in Africa, but also of R0a and, last but not least, probably of the Afro-Asiatic languages which could be born in Europe (in Italy) and far linked with Indo-European and Caucasian of Europe.
   
Your haplogroup is believed having come to Europe recently, but at the level of 37 markers the closest to you are at the GD of 16 and they are all Europeans (at 17-18 there are  three Italians), The first Ashkenazi Jews are at the GD of 22 (Kaminsky and Gans) and the first Arab is at the GD of 23 (Yousif), and we don’t know if they belong to your subclade.

If you test also L447 and let me know your result, I’ll study your case.

Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni del Badia
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 08:59:29 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2012, 02:40:31 AM »

What is Italian Refugium?

My paternal and maternal lines for the past 200 plus years are from Veneto in North-East Italy.  
I am 100% european as per FTDNA and mr. Mcdonald tests,
I am T1a2b ( L446+)

“What is Italian Refugium?” you ask me. Seeing these posts I realize that much time passed, at least two years. Now I am not more R/L23/L150/S136 but R-Z2105+/L277-/L584- (S136 is a private mutation of my family line, probably very recent) and my mitochondrion isn’t more K1a1b1 (9932A) but K1a1b1e, probably born in Italy and expanded till the British Isles in these last thousands of years: one sample also amongst the 105 Tuscans in the 1KGP. And you aren’t more T1b, but T1a2b/L446+ (but you should test also L447).

When I began to interest me about this stuff, the European Refugia were three: 1) Franco-Cantabrian, 2) Balkan, 3) Ukrainian ones. Nobody spoke of Italy. Now many put the Italian Refugium amongst the others, not only for mtDNA U5b3 (demonstrated by peer reviews), but also for many other mtDNA hapogroups (I think having demonstrated the origin of many haplogroups from the Italian Refugium). The most important is probably R0a, believed born in Arabia or nearby and recently recognized “European” also from FTDNA. R0a is at the origin of HV, H etc, i.e. some of the most diffused European haplogroups. But the most important point of my theory is that also hg. R1b1 comes from the Italian Refugium (and probably also the first R1a, found in the Alpine Zone and the Isles and practically absent in the places where its subclades are now more diffused). The writings of the great French scholar Ferembach demonstrated already some decades ago that the Iberomaurusians came to Africa from Italy 24,000YBP, and this could be the demonstration of all my theories, not only about R1b1-V88+ in Africa, but also of R0a and, last but not least, probably of the Afro-Asiatic languages which could be born in Europe (in Italy) and far linked with Indo-European and Caucasian of Europe.
   
Your haplogroup is believed having come to Europe recently, but at the level of 37 markers the closest to you are at the GD of 16 and they are all Europeans (at 17-18 there are  three Italians), The first Ashkenazi Jews are at the GD of 22 (Kaminsky and Gans) and the first Arab is at the GD of 23 (Yousif), and we don’t know if they belong to your subclade.

If you test also L447 and let me know your result, I’ll study your case.

Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni del Badia


Thanks,
I will try to arrange, but is it worth it to test L447 as I have seen no-one with L446+  have L447+,  only negative L447.

By the way I did the Doug McDonald test and he stated this
233243-autosomal-o-results.csv
Most likely fit is 100% Europe (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top

English= 0.341   Tuscan= 0.659 or
 French= 0.493   Tuscan= 0.507 or
 Irish= 0.271   Tuscan= 0.729 or
 Spain= 0.522  Romania= 0.478 or
Hungary= 0.239  Italian= 0.761

BTW, you surname are you from Badia between Padoa and Rovigo?
I ask because in the time of the Serenissima, the ending of oni meant a small body frame person ( otti was medium and otto was large).
If so your original name would be Tognon, which there are some in Ponzano Veneto.

this site might help you also
http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

I am part of ALPGEN project , there are T haplotype in the alpine areas of,  4.5% in veneto and 8.8% in the Tyrol, as well as odd ones like L, Q and N3

I always wondered if T, L and other arrived there with G.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 03:03:26 AM by Alpine » Logged

YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 10:51:13 AM »

BTW, you surname are you from Badia between Padoa and Rovigo?
I ask because in the time of the Serenissima, the ending of oni meant a small body frame person ( otti was medium and otto was large).
If so your original name would be Tognon, which there are some in Ponzano Veneto.

My surname has nothing to do with Veneto and with Tognon. Surnames like Tognoni, Togni, Tognarelli, Tognon, Tognato and infinite others derive from a patronymic, the name Antonio, and may be arisen in many parts of Italy in different lineages. And also the name “Badia” in Italy (but also in Spain and in other Latin countries) is overall diffused. But my surname was “del Badia” and not “della Badia”, and presupposes a personal name (“Badia” which probably did mean “rich”) and not a toponymic.

But history is the science of particular and not of the general one. My surname derives from “Antonio del Badia” (born in 1449), of the family of the “del Badia” of Castelfiorentino from which descended Pompeo Neri Badia , who migrated in the second half of the 15th century from Castelfiorentino (Florence) to Lajatico (Pisa). The most ancient ancestor I have reached so far is Signorino (del Badia), lived at the beginning of the 14th century.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 10:52:46 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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