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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2010, 04:34:16 AM »

This is not a serious point but I have been watching the soccer world cup a lot over the last while and one thing that struck me recently is that the Spanish team players have a substantially different look to the Portuguese. That made we wonder why.  Is the drop off in R1b1b2 in the west of Iberia and the rise of other clades suggesting a different history or prehistory between Portugal and Spain.  Does the yDNA suggest this?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 07:21:26 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2010, 07:58:16 AM »

This is not a serious point but I have been watching the soccer world cup a lot over the last while and one thing that struck me recently is that the Spanish team players have a substantially different look to the Portuguese.  The Spanish have a reasonable number of players who could easily pass as NW or central Europeans but I thought that in the Portuguese team such people were much lesser in numbers and most had a very southern look you would rarely see in the NW of Europe.  I had never really noticed this before.  That made we wonder why.  Is the drop off in R1b1b2 in the west of Iberia the reason for this.  I have never been in Portugal so I cannot confirm the observation.  Does anyone know the latest thoughts on the dating of the non-R1b1b2 haplogroups in Iberia.  

I have known many people of Portuguese descent who look Northern European. Admittedly, most of them were Americans, but I have also known or seen a few Brazilians of Portuguese descent who were pretty Northern European looking. So, maybe the Portuguese soccer team is an aberration?

But I have never been to Portugal either, so my two cents may be worth even less than two cents.
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IALEM
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« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2010, 01:09:34 PM »

I am not sure what is a NW European look (except for summer tourists, they are unmistakeable with their shorts, their highly coloured shirts and skins, and their socks and slippers). What I have noticed is that Portuguese and Western Spaniards are notoriously short, I feel average at my home town, (I am 1.80 mts) while I feel rather tall in Badajoz or Lisbon. It could be down to poor nutrition, though, Western Iberia has poor soils and has been traditionally poorer than the rest.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2010, 07:59:11 PM »

I would say half the Spanish team would easily pass for British or Irish especially guys like Xabi Alonso and Pique.  I think Alonso looks really like the average British Isles person (probably especially Irish/Scots/northern English) with the combo of mid brown hair, light eyes, fair skin and a red-brownfacial hair (when he grows it). http://realmadrid200708.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/xabi-alonso-2.jpg
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 08:01:57 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2010, 08:11:00 PM »

I am not sure what is a NW European look (except for summer tourists, they are unmistakeable with their shorts, their highly coloured shirts and skins, and their socks and slippers). What I have noticed is that Portuguese and Western Spaniards are notoriously short, I feel average at my home town, (I am 1.80 mts) while I feel rather tall in Badajoz or Lisbon. It could be down to poor nutrition, though, Western Iberia has poor soils and has been traditionally poorer than the rest.

lol!!! not to mention the painful self inflicted burns caused by going straight from years living on the islands of everlasting rain and cloud to a very sunny place and immediately lying nearly naked in the sun. Over the years I have learned to copy the good sense of the locals in hot countries i.e. do not take most your clothes off and lie in the mid days sun.  I guessed the locals who live there might have the best approach- i.e. wear light clothes but cover up your body from the very powerful sun.  The British and especially the Irish and Scots really cannot take the sun at all.  Even Scandinavians, Germans, Poles etc can tan well but many isles people have a different type of skin that really cannot take it at all. 
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IALEM
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« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2010, 07:20:57 AM »

I would say half the Spanish team would easily pass for British or Irish especially guys like Xabi Alonso and Pique.  I think Alonso looks really like the average British Isles person (probably especially Irish/Scots/northern English) with the combo of mid brown hair, light eyes, fair skin and a red-brownfacial hair (when he grows it). http://realmadrid200708.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/xabi-alonso-2.jpg

Xabi Alonso was born in Tolosa, and for a season played for the team of my home town, SD Eibar. Interestingly he lived for a while in Ireland, where he played Gaelic football, so maybe he adquired there an Irish look :)
Seriously, to me he looks perfectly Basque, I mean, if I meet him on the street not knowing who he is I wouldn´t suspect him a foreigner.
Yet, I think cultural traits play a role in external looks, and while I see some people on the street and I think to me "He/she is a foreigner, for sure" it is usually some external, cultural references that tell me that. Of course, there are some clear cut phisical traits, but difficult to tell most of the cases in isolation.
BTW tomorrow Spain faces Portugal, we will see if our good looking team prevails :)
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« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2010, 08:01:51 AM »

I have known many people of Portuguese descent who look Northern European....

But I have never been to Portugal either, so my two cents may be worth even less than two cents.

I was married to a Portuguese and have visited Portugal on and off for over 45 years. Since I am small - 5ft 2in - I fit right into the Portuguese scene, though I was a bit surprised to find my mother-in-law shorter than me. Very few Europeans are smaller than me! I only feel large around dainty East Asians.

I suspect that D*I*E*T [the software is removing this word in normal type] is the key feature, as Ialem has pointed out. On another forum he suggested milk as the key item. Portugal is largely unsuitable for dairy farming. Dairy products come from the Azores.  Portugal traditionally made cheese from sheep's milk. I've tried it. Yuck! No wonder milk doesn't feature much on their menu.

My ex-husband has four sons, all of whom tower over him. Couple of 6-footers in there. Two are mine and the other two by his second British wife, who is also short. I used to put this down to hybrid vigour, but I now wonder if milk is the growth-encourager.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 08:05:18 AM by Jean M » Logged
aklyosov
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« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2010, 02:08:55 PM »



I understand that. So what? What it actually proves or disproves? Some populations were mainly "Aryans" (R1a1), in some R1a1 were only leaders, some disappeared, some transformed.

My point was merely that R1a1 moved to Anatolia some 3600 ybp, and there were the same tribe (R1a1) who almost concurrently moved from the North to India and Iran. Hence, similarity in their languages, haplogroups,  cultural attributes, horse-breeding and horse-training techniques. After 3600 years many things - of course - changed, but some stay, sometimes vaguely.

   
My point is that while you can argue rightly that Mitanni and Aryans that invaded India were the same people as they spoke a related IndoAryan language, and then be R1a1 since that is present in India higher Castes, that not follows in the case of Hittites, since they spoke a non related IE language, Nesite, that conforms a different IE family together with Luwite and Palaian. They were in Anatolya before the 16th century, when the Hittite kingdom was created, and in any case they linguistics differences with Mitanni IE aristocracy were so great that they should have been developed on a long period of time, at least several centuries.
To sum up, Hittites is a piece of your optimization that doesn´t fit with the rest, the ycould be indeed R1a, as you claim, but you have to look for another argument to support that.

I am a bit puzzled: You quoted my text where Hittites are not even mentioned, and the most part of your comments are about Hittites. What are you going to prove or disprove?

That is why I always prefer (or even insist) that the "opponent" not just to say something critical, but present his/her view in the context of the discusion.

I have never said that ALL Hittites were R1a1. Hittites likely were "Minor Asians", probably G and J2. You apparently missed my point.  R1a1 could have been their rulers, generals, colonels, or whatever. What would it chance in my concept? By the way, a suggestion that the IE were rulers of Hittites is a well know one in the literature.

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R1a1

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« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2010, 02:19:42 PM »

Dear Anatole,
I thank you for your interesting and kind response, but, perhaps unwillingly, you are saying
which is the true problem re. the dating of a haplogroup: to mix clades that have different
origin and to falsify the dating itself (you say Zhivotovskij, I could say Klyosovskij).
When we compare a haplotype (say on Ysearch etc.) we find the closest to it, but we cannot know
if these clades are comparable, i.e. if they have the same ancestor. We now can determine the
"clade", after many wrong comparisons.
Here, I think, enters in game my theory of the "mutations around the modal".
You are a scientist of value in your field, but we too have our fields (literature, critics,
textkritik, psychoanalysis, glottology, history, etc.).

Dear Gioiello,

Please help me out: I do not want to embarrass you, however, you constantly beg for it. Please, being a "textkritic" and understand dynamics of mutations in haplotypes, which essentially obey the first-order processes, is a quite different thing. You may be great in "glottology" and in psychoanalysis, but have no idea in simple chemical processes which mutations belong to, literally.

Therefore, I do not want even to comment on what you have said re. mutations. It is awful. 

Please, spare me from comments on something which is my profession, and you have no idea about. It would be not fair from my side. It is like to beat up a small child.

I hope you understand what I mean. 
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R1a1

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« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2010, 03:03:21 AM »



I understand that. So what? What it actually proves or disproves? Some populations were mainly "Aryans" (R1a1), in some R1a1 were only leaders, some disappeared, some transformed.

My point was merely that R1a1 moved to Anatolia some 3600 ybp, and there were the same tribe (R1a1) who almost concurrently moved from the North to India and Iran. Hence, similarity in their languages, haplogroups,  cultural attributes, horse-breeding and horse-training techniques. After 3600 years many things - of course - changed, but some stay, sometimes vaguely.

   
My point is that while you can argue rightly that Mitanni and Aryans that invaded India were the same people as they spoke a related IndoAryan language, and then be R1a1 since that is present in India higher Castes, that not follows in the case of Hittites, since they spoke a non related IE language, Nesite, that conforms a different IE family together with Luwite and Palaian. They were in Anatolya before the 16th century, when the Hittite kingdom was created, and in any case they linguistics differences with Mitanni IE aristocracy were so great that they should have been developed on a long period of time, at least several centuries.
To sum up, Hittites is a piece of your optimization that doesn´t fit with the rest, the ycould be indeed R1a, as you claim, but you have to look for another argument to support that.

I am a bit puzzled: You quoted my text where Hittites are not even mentioned, and the most part of your comments are about Hittites. What are you going to prove or disprove?

That is why I always prefer (or even insist) that the "opponent" not just to say something critical, but present his/her view in the context of the discusion.

I have never said that ALL Hittites were R1a1. Hittites likely were "Minor Asians", probably G and J2. You apparently missed my point.  R1a1 could have been their rulers, generals, colonels, or whatever. What would it chance in my concept? By the way, a suggestion that the IE were rulers of Hittites is a well know one in the literature.


I was quoting your answer to another post of mine in which in turn I answered a post of yours in which you linked Mitanni and Hittites.
My whole point is that Hittite is a separated group with a separated language from the IndoAryan group in which Mitanni and Vedic are included, so you can´t link R1A1 with Hittite, either as a ruling class or as a people.
My view, since you ask for it, is that Hittites arrived to Anatolia earlier than IndoAryans, as a separated group, at least 2000 BC, and most probably at an earlier time, as their linguistics differences with IndoAryans and the non IE adstratum in Nesite shows.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2010, 02:30:08 PM »

I would say half the Spanish team would easily pass for British or Irish especially guys like Xabi Alonso and Pique.  I think Alonso looks really like the average British Isles person (probably especially Irish/Scots/northern English) with the combo of mid brown hair, light eyes, fair skin and a red-brownfacial hair (when he grows it). http://realmadrid200708.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/xabi-alonso-2.jpg

Xabi Alonso was born in Tolosa, and for a season played for the team of my home town, SD Eibar. Interestingly he lived for a while in Ireland, where he played Gaelic football, so maybe he adquired there an Irish look :)
Seriously, to me he looks perfectly Basque, I mean, if I meet him on the street not knowing who he is I wouldn´t suspect him a foreigner.
Yet, I think cultural traits play a role in external looks, and while I see some people on the street and I think to me "He/she is a foreigner, for sure" it is usually some external, cultural references that tell me that. Of course, there are some clear cut phisical traits, but difficult to tell most of the cases in isolation.
BTW tomorrow Spain faces Portugal, we will see if our good looking team prevails :)


 I think its fairly subtle.  However, i certainly was struck when I checked that the several of the most isles-looking current Spanish players are Catalans or Basques. This could just be chance of course.  

Anyway its Spain v Paraguay tonight and I will be supporting Spain as I love their style of football. David Villa has been especially good.  I cannot believe that Brazil and Argentina are knocked out though. Messi is probably the best player in the world in  my opinion.    
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 04:04:27 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
aklyosov
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« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2010, 05:09:25 PM »


I understand that. So what? What it actually proves or disproves? Some populations were mainly "Aryans" (R1a1), in some R1a1 were only leaders, some disappeared, some transformed.

My point was merely that R1a1 moved to Anatolia some 3600 ybp, and there were the same tribe (R1a1) who almost concurrently moved from the North to India and Iran. Hence, similarity in their languages, haplogroups,  cultural attributes, horse-breeding and horse-training techniques. After 3600 years many things - of course - changed, but some stay, sometimes vaguely.

************************    

I am a bit puzzled: You quoted my text where Hittites are not even mentioned, and the most part of your comments are about Hittites. What are you going to prove or disprove?

I was quoting your answer to another post of mine in which in turn I answered a post of yours in which you linked Mitanni and Hittites.

My dear friend,

if we are going to talk past each other, I am not interested.

First, you quoted my post in which I have never mentioned Hittites (I have mentioned Mitanni), and you argued against something which I have never told. You repeated my post, and again there were no Hittites.

After I responded to you about Hittites and said that they were not the "IndoEuropeans" but their rulers were, you argue again that Hittites came to Anatolia earlier that the IE people did. Did I ever said that Hittites came to Anatolia later than the IE? Or anything on time of Hitittes arrival to Anatolia?

Then, I have never used the term "IndoAryans" re. Anatolia, and consider it senseless, since there is nothing "Indo" in Anatolia. Why do you ascribe me that term? I was talking in the "IndoEuropeans". For you it is probably the same thing, for me it is not. And, please, notice that I place that awkward term in quotation marks, because that time there were no "Indo" Europeans either. That is why I prefer to talk in terms of R1a and R1b, as well as J2, G, etc.

Admit, you have no idea who were R1a1 in Anatolia 3600 ybp and who were not. Why do you argue in that case? Just to argue and for the sake of arguing?

Science still has a lot of blanks regarding people in Anatolia those times, but you sound like everything is known, at least to you. Both you and me can only suggest, conjecture, and carefully consider what is for and what against our conjectures. But not to jump, mind you, and reject conjectures based on collections of facts and observations, at least in my case.

You have your opinion - "My whole point is that Hittite is a separated group with a separated language from the IndoAryan group..., so you can´t link R1A1 with Hittite, either as a ruling class or as a people". O.K., live with it, I do not care. I have a different opinion, is that O.K.?

My opinion is based on the current knowledge (or is it a conjecture again?) that Hittites spoke an Anatolian branch of the IndoEuropean language. You have never mentioned that it was IE language, you said "a separated language", without defining what is "separate language". Are "American" and "British" "separated languages"? Well, for some yes, for some not. As you see, how can I discuss with you anything when you use loose terms, when you are categorical without proper knowledge (if it exists in a first place re. Hittites, Hetts, Hattis, etc), when you did not analyse R1a1 in Anatolia or in India? Don't you think that I might be interested in a discusion with you? On what ground?

Regards,

AK

          

  

 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 06:28:24 PM by aklyosov » Logged

R1a1

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« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2010, 06:37:36 PM »

Folks,

Let me give an advice, if I may. If you have even heard about "brainstorming", you must know a few definite rules and conditions. (1) nobody knows the answer (as in our cases here), (2) the answer is a collective product (as it should be here), and (3) nobody can criticise other folk's views, ideas and conjectures.

Think about it. You can only ADD alternative ideas, suggestions, guesses. You have no right to say negative things, since it is a brainstorming session. You do not know the final answer, so why so impatiently rushing to negatives?

I have tried to explain it earlier here, but it seems to be a lack of general culture of discussions.  All my comments that let's first specify a whole array of facts, hypotheses, views,  and only THEN consider them, fall into deaf ears. It is a pathology? It is a burning desire to smash everyone who thinks differently and independently?   

I have no answer to that. It is mind boggling.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2010, 03:07:54 PM »

Well Spain beat Paraguay and David Villa scored the winner. Now it's a very tough game against Germany who looked unstopable against Argentina. Same it's a semi final because it's really the 2 best remaining teams ans should be the final. 
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« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2010, 03:52:25 PM »

I can reaffirm what you mentioned earlier about Alonso and the Spanish team in general, Alan.

Sean Connery is darker than them.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2010, 05:32:37 PM »

At least we've finally gone back to talking about Iberians, even if it is just the Spanish soccer team.

I think the first 14 posts in this thread were on topic. How many are we up to now?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2010, 06:56:08 PM »

I can reaffirm what you mentioned earlier about Alonso and the Spanish team in general, Alan.

Sean Connery is darker than them.

There is a lot of rubbish written on the web about the Irish, Scots etc and what is the typical phenotype but there is no need for this to be speculated about as there are particularly good statistics on Ireland regarding phenotype due to a Harvard study of a scientific sample of 10,000 Irish resident in Ireland in (I think) the 50s.  It stated (this is very cut down):

'the Irish are almost uniquely pale skinned...over 90 per cent had skins of the pale pink shade ...Forty per cent of the entire group are freckled...In the proportion of pure light eyes...Over 46 per cent of the total group has pure light eyes, and of these all but 4 per cent are blue. Very light-mixed eyes (equivalent to Martin #13-14) account for another 30 per cent, while less than one-half of one per cent have pure brown. There is probably no population of equal size in the world which is lighter eyed, and blue eyed, than the Irish...The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total...The rufous hair color pigment reaches a world maximum here; not so much in reds as in the prevalance of golden hues in blond and brown shades'.

So as you can see the Irish are about 90% ultra pale (half of them freckly) and over three quarters have very light eyes.   So Connery and Farrell etc would simply have to be reckoned very much in the minority in terms of phenotype.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 06:50:29 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
IALEM
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« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2010, 02:18:06 PM »

Well Spain beat Paraguay and David Villa scored the winner. Now it's a very tough game against Germany who looked unstopable against Argentina. Same it's a semi final because it's really the 2 best remaining teams ans should be the final. 
I hope Spain plays better than it has played until now, or we are lost.
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« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2010, 02:21:36 PM »

Folks,

Let me give an advice, if I may. If you have even heard about "brainstorming", you must know a few definite rules and conditions. (1) nobody knows the answer (as in our cases here), (2) the answer is a collective product (as it should be here), and (3) nobody can criticise other folk's views, ideas and conjectures.

Think about it. You can only ADD alternative ideas, suggestions, guesses. You have no right to say negative things, since it is a brainstorming session. You do not know the final answer, so why so impatiently rushing to negatives?

I have tried to explain it earlier here, but it seems to be a lack of general culture of discussions.  All my comments that let's first specify a whole array of facts, hypotheses, views,  and only THEN consider them, fall into deaf ears. It is a pathology? It is a burning desire to smash everyone who thinks differently and independently?   

I have no answer to that. It is mind boggling.
Let me give you an advice, before giving advice to other pepole follow your own advice and don´t be so negative, especially when you criticize my post becuase of  things I never said.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2010, 05:43:09 PM »

Well Spain beat Paraguay and David Villa scored the winner. Now it's a very tough game against Germany who looked unstopable against Argentina. Same it's a semi final because it's really the 2 best remaining teams ans should be the final.  
I hope Spain plays better than it has played until now, or we are lost.


Well that was a great performance by Spain to beat Germany tonight in the soccer 'world beaker'.  The guys with the maritime beakers totally outplayed Germany. The Germans stone battle axes and corded ware pottery helmets were no match for the Spanish beaker peoples archery and metalwork and beaker hard hats.  Its an intra-beaker clash with Spain versus Holland in the World Beaker Final now.  The world beaker final will be held at Stonehenge with its weird circular pitch completely ringed with goals.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 05:55:49 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2010, 05:24:15 AM »

Well Spain beat Paraguay and David Villa scored the winner. Now it's a very tough game against Germany who looked unstopable against Argentina. Same it's a semi final because it's really the 2 best remaining teams ans should be the final.  
I hope Spain plays better than it has played until now, or we are lost.



Well that was a great performance by Spain to beat Germany tonight in the soccer 'world beaker'.  The guys with the maritime beakers totally outplayed Germany. The Germans stone battle axes and corded ware pottery helmets were no match for the Spanish beaker peoples archery and metalwork and beaker hard hats.  Its an intra-beaker clash with Spain versus Holland in the World Beaker Final now.  The world beaker final will be held at Stonehenge with its weird circular pitch completely ringed with goals.
So, Holland vs Spain, the 2 possible origin of Bell Beaker, which one will prevail?
BTW Spain played the best match of the championship so far, we are improving steadily thanks God
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« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2010, 08:39:10 AM »

Returning briefly to the original topic of this thread, Calvo, kit N5681, Ysearch GYFHF, went L21+ sometime last night.

I will go into more detail on the Iberian R-L21 thread.
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