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Mike Walsh
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« on: June 16, 2010, 04:02:44 PM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?

I'm going to copy over some research notes I made on another forum. I'm having a lot of fun with it because I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people.  I'm just trying to see the logic.  I don't have a dog in the fight either way... well other than one of my lineages that are Scots-Irish although I'm not claiming any royalty.

Let's start out with some basics.  From slow to fast, here are the key signature off-modal STR's: 531=12 YCAIIb=24 413a=22 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 391=10 444=11 458=18 449=30

I don't think there is any doubt that the Scots Modal is a subset of R-L21* people.

Some believe that  YCAII=19,24 is a key mutation in that YCAII=19,23 represents the old Irish Dalraida ancestry where as YCAII=19,24 represents a mutation of a MRCA for the Scottish Modal people and this MRCA was a Dalraida ancestor in Scotland.

Here are some facts on YCAIIb in R-L21*, that are a surprise to some who think YCAIIb=24 is essentially owned by the Scots:

YCAIIb
26 and above - 0
25 - 2
24 - 110 (this is the Scots modal)
23 - 1381 (this is the WAMH modal)
22 - 61
21 - 15
20 - 3
19 - 44
18 and below - 0

531 is thought of as another key marker and it is more "stable" or slower moving.

Of the 110 YCAIIb=24 people, 81 have tested out to 67 markers have therefore had 531 tested. Of those 81, 61 have the classic (and slower moving) Scotts 531=12 STR value. One has mutated again to 531=13 so let's say 62 are Scots modal. That's 76.5%.

The remaining 531=WAMH or below people equate to 23.5% of the YCAIIb=24's.  These are probably not Scots Modal people.

You don't have to be related to the Scots Modal to have YCAIIb=24, but it ups the odds.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 04:11:59 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 04:10:09 PM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?
... I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people. ....
From slow to fast, here are the key signature off-modal STR's: 531=12 YCAIIb=24 413a=22 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 391=10 444=11 458=18 449=30
I don't think there is any doubt that the Scots Modal is a subset of R-L21*....
I thought I'd do a little research on what people think a Pictish haplotype might be. I found that Ethnoancestry seems to think they can determine who is a Pict.
http://scotsfamily.com/dna-testing.htm

It appears John G. McGrew entered a Ysearch record, QJETR, that based on EthnoAncestry's intepretation of what is a "Pictish Origin".
http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=XN33E&viewuid=QJETR

umm... A couple of the off-modals listed for "Pictish origin" include the classic Scots off-modals: GataH4=12 YCAII=19,24

Does anyone know if this is credible? Does Ethnoancestry think the Scots modal is a Pictish signal?
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2010, 01:20:16 PM »

I thought I'd do a little research on what people think a Pictish haplotype might be. I found that Ethnoancestry seems to think they can determine who is a Pict.
http://scotsfamily.com/dna-testing.htm

It appears John G. McGrew entered a Ysearch record, QJETR, that based on EthnoAncestry's intepretation of what is a "Pictish Origin".
http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=XN33E&viewuid=QJETR

umm... A couple of the off-modals listed for "Pictish origin" include the classic Scots off-modals: GataH4=12 YCAII=19,24

Does anyone know if this is credible? Does Ethnoancestry think the Scots modal is a Pictish signal?

On another forum, I did get this answer.
Quote from: Orkney83_Eunson
I dont speak for Dr. Wilson, but what he has told me is that he "believes" the Scots Modal does represent the Picts.
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/about.htm

Here is an interesting post on Rootsweb:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-03/1172944489
Quote from: Patrick_Tagert
While Scottish Dal Riada has an elaborate tradition of it's origins, Pictish traditions passed into obscurity with the loss of the language about a thousand years ago. As any culture is carried primarily by language, it can be reasonably argued that most of Pict culture is as lost as the language. That said, even a cursory examination of Scots Dal Riada history is associated with frequent references to intermarriage & other very close association of Dal Riada with the southern & western Picts. In later history, Picts are usually associated with a much more northern & eastern cline in Scotland, but at the time of the proposed migration of Dal Riada to Scotland circa the 5th century, the Picts were, of course, the inhabitants that they encountered on their arrival in what is now Argyll. I suggest now that they did not push the Picts out of Argyll, they assimilated them.

Quote from: Scott_Johnson
I have searched the location of surnames that match closely to my haplotype (Scots Modal) and have seen a northern bias more than a southern one. (not a scientific survey)

The tribe known as the Caledonians are known to have lived in the northern and western part of Scotland. I believe the Caledonians are considered to be a variety of Picts.
It is possible that most of the people who have the Scots Modal were originally from this area and that people from Ulster moved in the Argyll area were powerful enough to take over the culture and government of the region, but not the dna.
The people known as 'Scots' came from Ireland. Perhaps if it is some day proved that the Scots Modal originated with the natives of Scotland the name should be changed to Caledonian Modal or Pict Modal.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 10:48:18 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?
... I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people. ....
From slow to fast, here are the key signature off-modal STR's: 531=12 YCAIIb=24 413a=22 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 391=10 444=11 458=18 449=30
I don't think there is any doubt that the Scots Modal is a subset of R-L21*....
I wanted to test where we find Scots Modal people and Scots Modal like people so I created a Scots Modal haplotype row and made it WAMH except for I set the following off-modals: 391=10 389ii-i=17 458=18 449=30 YCAIIb=24 456=17 CDYa=37 531=12 413a=22 444=11.

GD's with the people the R-L21* confirmed people that fit the above range from 2 to 11 across 67. This seems like a reasonable fit. The Sum of the Variance is 7.7 over 67 markers.

Okay let's see how that maps with Ireland, homeland of the Dalraida, a descendant of Connor II.

8 of the R-L21* people in the group above list Irish MDKA's. 7 of the 8 list Ulster and the other has is unknown (just Ireland in general). The Sum of the Variance is 5.8 over 67. From a cursory evaluation, Scots Modal cluster people may be older in Scotland than in Ireland, but because of the back and forth movements I'm not sure that tells us much.

Okay, let's look at others in Ireland who do don't fit the Scots modal, but just have closer GD's.....

GD's in Connacht range from 15 to 27 with the Scots Modal over 67 markers.
Leinster ranges from 13 to 29.
Munster ranges from 8 to 30. The 8 GD is fN65235 Giersch. If you exclude him the range is 15 to 30.
Ulster ranges from 2 to 21 with a number of GD's <=10.

I don't think the high side of GD's for the above regions is important as they are clearly not Scots Modal-like and just something else (within L21*) altogether. What is important is the low side of the GD's and how many people sit at the low side. I don't see much evidence for Scots Modal-like people in any of Ireland except for Ulster.

This implies to me that a Scots Modal link to Connor II is hard to show genetically because he left no descendants, if he was Scots Modal-like (or pre-Scots) over in his supposed homeland of Connacht. I don't know my Irish King history so let me know if Connacht is not his home.

I broke Scotland into regions and did the same evaluation.

The Borders range from 11 to 22
Grampian ranges from 3 to 30 with a number in the <=10 range
Highlands range from 4 to 30 but only 2 people <=10, both at 4. The rest are 16 to 30.
Scottish Isles range from 8 to 30 but only 1 less than 10, the one at 8.
Strathclyde ranges from 5 to 32 with a number in the <=10 range.

I don't see the Highlands link as being that strong but maybe we don't have very many people from the Highlands that have L21 tested.

My perspective is that Ulster, Strathclyde and Grampian are key areas for Scots Modal and Scots Modal-like people. I don't know the ancient history of Scotland, but that does that tell us anything? I don't see any links to the rest of Ireland or Scotland for that matter?

I thought I'd better check England and was a little surprised to see the strength of the link there. GD's range from 4 to 32 with Scots Modal there, with a number <=10. Of the six English Ht's that have GD's from 4 to 9, only three list specific locations. One is from Yorkshire and two are from South West.

One last check. I'll go looking for the "almost" or "kind of" Scots Modal people. To do this I checked all of the R-L21* GD's from 10 to 15 from the Scots Modal. I get a wide list of countries including all of the British Isles and Finland, France, Spain, Switzerland, Germany and the Netherlands. If you look at that you might think the "pre-Scots" lineage could very well be from the continent rather than the Isles. I don't know.
I'll refine this a little further. The people in this 10 to 15 GD query have a mode of WAMH for all 67 STR's except for these for these three: 391=10 449=30 444=11. What's interesting about that is it is a subset of the Scots Modal so maybe this actually is a "pre-Scots" signature. For the people with GD's 10 to 15 AND 391=10 449=30 444=11 I get the following:
Scotland 5
England 5
Ireland 4
Germany 1
Spain 1

Just one from anyplace could be just a red herring so we end up with Scotland, England and Ireland. The rate of testing is higher in Ireland than Scotland and in Scotland than England. If you normalized for testing rates, England would clearly be the land of the Scots Modal-like people. That could be where the pre-Scots Modal lineage lived.

Anyway, this is all just conjecture, but that'll give you some food for thought.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:25:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2010, 07:34:16 AM »

You need to factor in total population.

England: 51 million
Scotland: 5 million
Northern Ireland: 1.7 million

Plus a lot of Scots were settled in Ulster in the 17th century, and lots of Scots and Irish have moved into England over the centuries.

In the case of the massive Irish immigration in the 19th century, descendants are quite likely to know that they have an Irish ancestor, particularly if they are descended in the direct male line and so have an Irish surname. But many English won't realise. I'm a case in point. I had no idea until 23andMe's RF linked me to males of 100% Irish ancestry. I still have no idea where the link is. And I didn't realise that I had a Scottish ancestor until fairly recently. (I was thrilled to bits. She had my name - Jean.)
 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 07:36:06 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 10:04:53 AM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?
... I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people. ....
I've done another dive into the data about Scots Modal people with the goal of learning more about their origin. I feel good that the data I have is quality in that it is only R-L21* confirmed and 67 marker haplotype people. This gives you more resolution than 37 marker data. I've looked at all the MDKA's and classified them into a province/region where the MDKA had such detail.

I broke R-L21* haplotypes that fit the STR signatures at the bottom into what I'm labeling:
Pre-Scots (Modal)
Proto-Scots (Modal)
Scots (Modal) pre-24/22
Scots Modal 24
Scots Modal 22
Little Scots

I'm using the above labels loosely. I'd prefer to use neutral letter/number schemes but I get complaints that they are hard to follow. I don't intend to convey that any of these groups are really Scots, or at least ancient Scots. This is in no way an analysis of all Scottish haplogroups or haplotypes. This is just an analysis of what is called the Scots Modal and some of its relatives.

I approached the problem given some research into the total R-L21* Ht database and based on a finding that the Scots Modal YCAIIb=24, Scots Modal YCAIIb=22 and Little Scots people all have a common off-modal signature and their GD's across the groups aren't too far off. A fellow named Steve Colson claims this relationship based on his view of the data and various tools, like Fluxus. At first I was skeptical, but after doing some GD's and find some common markers I've now changed my position. Using this information I tried to look for brothers and cousins for these three known clusters and then analyze their geographies, where known.

The proposed (speculative) tree structure is that Pre-Scots are ancestors to the Proto-Scots who are ancestors to two branchs. Branch #1 would then split again into the Scots Modal YCAIIb=24 and Scots Modal YCAIIb=22 sub-branches. Branch #2 is the Little Scots Cluster. Details of the STR signatures are at the bottom. Here are some GD results and counts and variances by country and Scottish region.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Scots_Modal_and_Variants.pdf

Ireland's results are almost all from Ulster. There is one Munster and one from Leinster but none from Connacht. Since the Caipre Dál Riata folklore has him as a descendant of King Conor I thought we might see some people from Connacht on the list. The ancient Scotti are shown in maps scattered across northern and western Ireland. In my analysis, Ireland's variances were lower than Scotland's in general. They were higher than England's at most of the subgroup levels.

However, for the total group, England had a higher variance than Ireland.  Given lower testing rates (and higher populations) in England (visa vi Scotland and Ireland,) England may be more prominent as far as these people than the table shows.  England did have representation from each sub-group.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is the breakdown within Scotland. I geographically broke Scotland into the Strathclyde and vicinity region, the Scottish Borders region, the Grampian vicinity and the Highlands, including the northern islands. The Scottish Borders barely shows up in the results.

The Scottish Highland was noteworthy. Given the low population in the Highlands, it showed up unexpectedly high in numbers. It also has fairly high variances especially across the entire group. Ewan Campbell has written that the barrier between the Highlands and Strathclyde is more significant than the 15 miles or so across the sea from Strathclyde to Ulster. The Highlands, being more remote, would have a better chance of having some more ancient inhabitants of Scotland. Those who say the Scots Modal is of Pictish origin usually cite this Highlands connection.

This is speculative, but given the information I can see, it looks like the Scots Modal people and related clusters did not originate in Ireland. This is far from proven but the distribution/variance of the haplotypes doesn't fit the direction that Dál Riata moved.

I also ran Ken Nordtvedit's TMRCA method for 67 markers less the multi-copy ones and 425 for the whole group of Scots Modal and Variants people. I got 1678 ybp or about 300 AD.  If you take 30% either way you get 200 BC to 800 AD.

Some feel that YCAIIb=24 separates the Scotti Gael in Scotland versus the prior version (YCAIIb=23) that is purportedly from Ireland.  If you do the same calculations for the subset that is YCAIIb=24 you get about 700 AD with a range of 300 AD to 1100 AD.  This subgroup is the most populous so its expansion must have been prolific.

.......
Just for grins, I checked the R-L21* confirmed folks (all Ht lengths) for 391=10 and 449=30, which are the most common of the off-modal STRs for the Scots Modal and variants.  Guess which country had the highest variance, 12% higher than anyone else?  You probably guessed it, but despite the few number of available test results from there the answer is .... France.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 12:08:30 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2010, 05:34:36 PM »

There are no Irish surnames that have survived that are known to come from the Dal Riada lineage.  The original lines seem to have entirely died out.  So basically there is nothing left back in Ireland to compare the Scottish y DNA with.  

I tend to strongly doubt  the parts of ancient genealogies and histories of the pre-400AD period and also the pseudo-ethnic labels such as Errain.  I feel most pre-400AD history in Irish literature is on a far lower level of historical reliability than afterwards.  I also feel that the pseudo-ethnic labels such as Errain and tales that try to link Dal Riada with other groups in far away Munster etc need to be handled with care.  I do not believe for instance that we can make up for the lack of Irish Dal Riadan surnames in Ireland by simply substituting other Errain ones.  

So in essence the original Dal Riadan lines have not survived in any surnames in Ireland and therefore I do not think the lack of Scots modal in Ireland tells us much or means it cannot have been Irish originally.  The matter of whether it is Pictish or Dal Riada originated remains open and probably in the absence of surviving Dal Riadan lines in Ireland, always will.  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2010, 04:37:10 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2010, 05:44:42 PM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?
... I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people. ....
I've done another dive into the data about Scots Modal people with the goal of learning more about their origin. I feel good that the data I have is quality in that it is only R-L21* confirmed and 67 marker haplotype people. This gives you more resolution than 37 marker data. I've looked at all the MDKA's and classified them into a province/region where the MDKA had such detail.

I broke R-L21* haplotypes that fit the STR signatures at the bottom into what I'm labeling:
Pre-Scots (Modal)
Proto-Scots (Modal)
Scots (Modal) pre-24/22
Scots Modal 24
Scots Modal 22
Little Scots

I'm using the above labels loosely. I'd prefer to use neutral letter/number schemes but I get complaints that they are hard to follow. I don't intend to convey that any of these groups are really Scots, or at least ancient Scots. This is in no way an analysis of all Scottish haplogroups or haplotypes. This is just an analysis of what is called the Scots Modal and some of its relatives.

I approached the problem given some research into the total R-L21* Ht database and based on a finding that the Scots Modal YCAIIb=24, Scots Modal YCAIIb=22 and Little Scots people all have a common off-modal signature and their GD's across the groups aren't too far off. A fellow named Steve Colson claims this relationship based on his view of the data and various tools, like Fluxus. At first I was skeptical, but after doing some GD's and find some common markers I've now changed my position. Using this information I tried to look for brothers and cousins for these three known clusters and then analyze their geographies, where known.

The proposed (speculative) tree structure is that Pre-Scots are ancestors to the Proto-Scots who are ancestors to two branchs. Branch #1 would then split again into the Scots Modal YCAIIb=24 and Scots Modal YCAIIb=22 sub-branches. Branch #2 is the Little Scots Cluster. Details of the STR signatures are at the bottom. Here are some GD results and counts and variances by country and Scottish region.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Scots_Modal_and_Variants.pdf

Ireland's results are almost all from Ulster. There is one Munster and one from Leinster but none from Connacht. Since the Caipre Dál Riata folklore has him as a descendant of King Conor I thought we might see some people from Connacht on the list. The ancient Scotti are shown in maps scattered across northern and western Ireland. In my analysis, Ireland's variances were lower than Scotland's in general. They were higher than England's at most of the subgroup levels.

However, for the total group, England had a higher variance than Ireland.  Given lower testing rates (and higher populations) in England (visa vi Scotland and Ireland,) England may be more prominent as far as these people than the table shows.  England did have representation from each sub-group.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is the breakdown within Scotland. I geographically broke Scotland into the Strathclyde and vicinity region, the Scottish Borders region, the Grampian vicinity and the Highlands, including the northern islands. The Scottish Borders barely shows up in the results.

The Scottish Highland was noteworthy. Given the low population in the Highlands, it showed up unexpectedly high in numbers. It also has fairly high variances especially across the entire group. Ewan Campbell has written that the barrier between the Highlands and Strathclyde is more significant than the 15 miles or so across the sea from Strathclyde to Ulster. The Highlands, being more remote, would have a better chance of having some more ancient inhabitants of Scotland. Those who say the Scots Modal is of Pictish origin usually cite this Highlands connection.

This is speculative, but given the information I can see, it looks like the Scots Modal people and related clusters did not originate in Ireland. This is far from proven but the distribution/variance of the haplotypes doesn't fit the direction that Dál Riata moved.

I also ran Ken Nordtvedit's TMRCA method for 67 markers less the multi-copy ones and 425 for the whole group of Scots Modal and Variants people. I got 1678 ybp or about 300 AD.  If you take 30% either way you get 200 BC to 800 AD.

Some feel that YCAIIb=24 separates the Scotti Gael in Scotland versus the prior version (YCAIIb=23) that is purportedly from Ireland.  If you do the same calculations for the subset that is YCAIIb=24 you get about 700 AD with a range of 300 AD to 1100 AD.  This subgroup is the most populous so its expansion must have been prolific.

.......
Just for grins, I checked the R-L21* confirmed folks (all Ht lengths) for 391=10 and 449=30, which are the most common of the off-modal STRs for the Scots Modal and variants.  Guess which country had the highest variance, 12% higher than anyone else?  You probably guessed it, but despite the few number of available test results from there the answer is .... France.

It a depends on date.  There are sources such as the Senchas Fir nAlban and Adomnan's Life of Columba and the Annals of Ulster which gives a very useful evidence of the expansion of lineages of the Dalriada in the period 500-700 through the west Highlands and Hendrides.  Historically, it is probably the only recorded prolific expansion of lineages in the area in the period 500-700AD and it is hard to associate any major expansion in that area in that period with anything else other than the expansion of Dal Riada.  Probably by the late 7th century the Picts had ceded most of the west to the Scots/Dal Riada.  The division between the Scots and Picts is implied in sources of that period to have been along Druim Alban (basically the watershed that separates the west Highlands and islands from Tayside, Grampian etc. So, I do not think Pictish elite lineages were really in a position to expand in the west once the Dal Riada got a grip of the area.     
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 05:50:25 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 06:32:00 PM »

Does the R-L21* Scots Modal cluster represent ancient Scotti? or Picts? or possibly something else?
... I'm probing those who believe in an ancient Dalraida lineage as the progenitor for the Scots Modal cluster people. ....
I've done another dive into the data about Scots Modal people with the goal of learning more about their origin. I feel good that the data I have is quality in that it is only R-L21* confirmed and 67 marker haplotype people. This gives you more resolution than 37 marker data. I've looked at all the MDKA's and classified them into a province/region where the MDKA had such detail.
.....
Ireland's results are almost all from Ulster. There is one Munster and one from Leinster but none from Connacht. Since the Caipre Dál Riata folklore has him as a descendant of King Conor I thought we might see some people from Connacht on the list. The ancient Scotti are shown in maps scattered across northern and western Ireland. In my analysis, Ireland's variances were lower than Scotland's in general. They were higher than England's at most of the subgroup levels.

However, for the total group, England had a higher variance than Ireland.  Given lower testing rates (and higher populations) in England (visa vi Scotland and Ireland,) England may be more prominent as far as these people than the table shows.  England did have representation from each sub-group.

Perhaps the most interesting thing is the breakdown within Scotland. I geographically broke Scotland into the Strathclyde and vicinity region, the Scottish Borders region, the Grampian vicinity and the Highlands, including the northern islands. The Scottish Borders barely shows up in the results.

The Scottish Highland was noteworthy. Given the low population in the Highlands, it showed up unexpectedly high in numbers. It also has fairly high variances especially across the entire group. Ewan Campbell has written that the barrier between the Highlands and Strathclyde is more significant than the 15 miles or so across the sea from Strathclyde to Ulster. The Highlands, being more remote, would have a better chance of having some more ancient inhabitants of Scotland. Those who say the Scots Modal is of Pictish origin usually cite this Highlands connection.

This is speculative, but given the information I can see, it looks like the Scots Modal people and related clusters did not originate in Ireland. This is far from proven but the distribution/variance of the haplotypes doesn't fit the direction that Dál Riata moved.....

It a depends on date.  There are sources such as the Senchas Fir nAlban and Adomnan's Life of Columba and the Annals of Ulster which gives a very useful evidence of the expansion of lineages of the Dalriada in the period 500-700 through the west Highlands and Hendrides.  Historically, it is probably the only recorded prolific expansion of lineages in the area in the period 500-700AD and it is hard to associate any major expansion in that area in that period with anything else other than the expansion of Dal Riada.  Probably by the late 7th century the Picts had ceded most of the west to the Scots/Dal Riada.  The division between the Scots and Picts is implied in sources of that period to have been along Druim Alban (basically the watershed that separates the west Highlands and islands from Tayside, Grampian etc. So, I do not think Pictish elite lineages were really in a position to expand in the west once the Dal Riada got a grip of the area.    
I guess what I'm saying is the genetic evidence indicates the lineage of the Scots Modal was not an ancient Scotti of Ireland, what a true ancestor of the Dál Riata folklore should be.  I don't see anything looks like a pre-Scots or almost-Scots Modal person over there outside of Ulster and the Ulster people have a lower variance than the Strathclyde Scots Modal people.

I would agree there was expansion into Ulster from Strathclyde and that Strathclyde is the heart of the Scots Modal.  I would assume there was some spill over from the prolific Scots Modal growth into other areas of Scotland and possibly England as well.

This is speculative, but if I had to bet on what happened, I'd say it appears like an old Pict or Northern Briton of some kind intermarried or integrated into the Dál Riata power base, but eventually became the patriarch of the prolific Scots Modal people.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:33:40 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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