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Jean M
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2010, 07:20:25 PM »

Here's the programme for the launch event:
  • J. P. Mallory, The Indo-Europeanization of Atlantic Europe
  • Andrew FitzPatrick, The Arrival of the Beaker Folk in Britain
  • Catriona Gibson, Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between western Iberia and the British Isles 2800–800 BC
  • John T. Koch, Out of the flow and ebb of the European Bronze Age: heroes, Tartessos, and Celtic  
  • Dirk Brandherm, Westward Ho? Swordbearers and all the rest of it...
  • Jacqueline McKinley, Jörn Schuster, Alistair Barclay, Dead sea connections: a Bronze- and Iron Age ritual site on the Isle of Thanet
  • Dagmar S. Wodtko, Models of language spread and language development in prehistoric Europe
  • William O’Brien, Celts, Romans and the indigenous Iron Age and Late Bronze Age of south-west Ireland
  • Colin Renfrew, Thoughts on early Celtic in the west and early Indo-European
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 07:27:54 PM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2010, 08:01:16 PM »

Here's the programme for the launch event:
  • J. P. Mallory, The Indo-Europeanization of Atlantic Europe
  • Andrew FitzPatrick, The Arrival of the Beaker Folk in Britain
  • Catriona Gibson, Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between western Iberia and the British Isles 2800–800 BC
  • John T. Koch, Out of the flow and ebb of the European Bronze Age: heroes, Tartessos, and Celtic  
  • Dirk Brandherm, Westward Ho? Swordbearers and all the rest of it...
  • Jacqueline McKinley, Jörn Schuster, Alistair Barclay, Dead sea connections: a Bronze- and Iron Age ritual site on the Isle of Thanet
  • Dagmar S. Wodtko, Models of language spread and language development in prehistoric Europe
  • William O’Brien, Celts, Romans and the indigenous Iron Age and Late Bronze Age of south-west Ireland
  • Colin Renfrew, Thoughts on early Celtic in the west and early Indo-European

Interesting how they have Mallory and Renfrew at the opposite ends of the program.

It all sounds great, though. Wish I could be there.

Dr. FitzPatrick is the one I communicated with some time back about the possibility of dna testing the Amesbury Archer. He was very open and communicative and impressed me as a really nice human being.
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2010, 08:06:30 PM »

If they don't do all that, they will have to reverse themselves and disavow much that they have already written.

Barry Cunliffe does that all the time. He is noted for saying "There is no such thing as a fact in archaeology". He happily points out that our interpretations of the same data tend to get revised every decade or so, in the light of new discoveries and/or perspectives.  The book you have been quoting from - Between the Oceans - was written in the midst of paradigm change, which he discusses on page 21. In fact I quote from him on the subject.

Quote
Some prehistorians went into a state of denial, implicitly refusing to accept that population movements had ever been a significant feature of European prehistory.
 

What will Oppenheimer do, though?

Will he reverse himself?
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2010, 10:33:57 PM »


What will Oppenheimer do, though?

Will he reverse himself?

Hopefully.
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2010, 04:30:27 AM »

Here's the programme for the launch event:
  • J. P. Mallory, The Indo-Europeanization of Atlantic Europe
  • Andrew FitzPatrick, The Arrival of the Beaker Folk in Britain
  • Catriona Gibson, Beakers into Bronze: Tracing connections between western Iberia and the British Isles 2800–800 BC
  • John T. Koch, Out of the flow and ebb of the European Bronze Age: heroes, Tartessos, and Celtic  
  • Dirk Brandherm, Westward Ho? Swordbearers and all the rest of it...
  • Jacqueline McKinley, Jörn Schuster, Alistair Barclay, Dead sea connections: a Bronze- and Iron Age ritual site on the Isle of Thanet
  • Dagmar S. Wodtko, Models of language spread and language development in prehistoric Europe
  • William O’Brien, Celts, Romans and the indigenous Iron Age and Late Bronze Age of south-west Ireland
  • Colin Renfrew, Thoughts on early Celtic in the west and early Indo-European

Jean,
Do you have the time and place of the launch.
The book will be available on Amazon 31st August.
http://tinyurl.com/27vfroa
I wonder when it will be available in book stores after launch.
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Jean M
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2010, 07:33:33 AM »

Jean, Do you have the time and place of the launch.

The launch is taking place as part of the one-day forum "Rethinking the Bronze Age and the Arrival of Indo-European in Atlantic Europe" at St Anne's College, Oxford, on 10 July.

Copies should be available at the launch, in theory. Given the way publishers operate, I cannot guarantee that copies will be on Amazon that day.   

   
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2010, 07:48:30 AM »

I got an email reply this morning from Dan Bradley. He simply thanked me for my email.

At least I know he got it, and I must say that getting a "Thank you, Richard" is better than nothing.
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Jean M
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2010, 08:09:34 AM »

What will Oppenheimer do, though?

Will he reverse himself?

I'd love to know what he said last year at the Cardiff conference (and what others said about him). These were some of the speakers:

  • Dr Stephen Oppenheimer, Author, affiliated with Oxford University & Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine. Can we define Celts genetically?
  • Mark Jobling*, Professor of Genetics, University of Leicester. Magic bullet or blank? What genetics can and can't tell us about the past
  • Dr Bruce Winney, Senior Postdoctoral Researcher, Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Oxford University. Genetics and the peopling of the British Isles

* Heads the team which published the paper re-dating R1b's entry into Europe to the Neolithic.

My guess is that Oppenheimer is no longer really in the picture. There was plenty of criticism from linguists of his Origins of the British at the time of its publication. But archaeology was only beginning to relinquish its long love affair with continuity, while geneticists hadn't worked up the nerve to let go of Semino (2000) on R1b. So there was no concerted opposition from all quarters. Just a few years later, the picture looks distinctly different.   
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:32:50 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2010, 09:11:45 AM »

I got an email reply this morning from Dan Bradley. He simply thanked me for my email.

At least I know he got it, and I must say that getting a "Thank you, Richard" is better than nothing.
Thanks, Rich.  

Is there anyway to blitz* all of these guys with a summary of R-L21's distribution, TMRCA age estimates, Vince V's diversity maps and Dr. Hammer's R1b1b2 subclade SNP expansion/origin map?

I don't understand how they think, but if I was someone sincerely interested in uncovering facts about the Celts I'd certainly appreciate information on potential genetic "discoveries."

* EDIT: I don't mean to "blitz" with repetitive communications but just to communicate to all of the right parties a single substantive package of summary charts.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 07:54:12 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2010, 11:22:33 AM »

Is there anyway to blitz all of these guys with a summary of R-L21's distribution, TMRCA age estimates, Vince V's diversity maps and Dr. Hammer's R1b1b2 subclade SNP expansion/origin map?

I can print out the latest version of my P of E and press it into Prof. Cunliffe's hand. That has my speculative R1b movement map, but I don't have an up-to-date distribution map of L21. If someone can point me to one, I can stick it in.  

[Added] No matter - I can create a makeshift one from the Google maps R-L21* Map.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 11:44:54 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2010, 11:44:38 AM »

If you have Barry Cunliffe's book, Europe Between the Oceans, take a look at map 8.18 on page 257, entitled, "The 'Celtic' Languages". The caption reads:

Quote
The map shows the extent of spoken Celtic in its various dialects in relation to the area of distribution of artefacts of the Atlantic Late Bronze Age. It could be argued that Celtic developed as an Atlantic facade lingua franca which spread along riverine exchange networks into the European hinterland.

Read the section entitled, "Atlantic-Facing Europe", pages 254-258. On page 258, after suggesting that some form of Indo-European was probably introduced to the Atlantic facade during the Neolithic Period, Dr. Cunliffe says this:

Quote
Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic zone during the Bronze Age.

This is also apparently the opinion of Dr. John Koch, one of the world's foremost Celticists.

There is definitely some similarity between the map in Dr. Cunliffe's book and the distribution of R-L21.   ...
For those who can't see Cunliffe's "The Celtic Languages" map on p.257, here is a rough description of the areas designated:                        

- "Goidelic" is Ireland and Scotland.
- "Brittonic" is Engaland and Wales.
- "Gaulish" is France, Belgium, Luxemborg, Central and Southern Germany, Austria to the western edge of the Czech Republic.
- "Leptonic" is roughly Switzerland.
- "Celtiberian" is Central and Western Iberia.
- "Luistianian" overlaps Celtiberian in Southwestern Iberia.

I want to point out a 2nd map in Europe Between the Oceans. On page 181 Cunliffe shows a map he titles "Europe in the Period 2800-1300BC."  It depicts areas related to trade zones.    

- "Metal-rich West Zone" includes Portugal, these provinces of Spain: La Coruna, Lugo, Pontevedra and Orense (area of Galicia), French Brittany, Wales and the southern half of Ireland.
- "West Mediterranean Zone" includes the Andalusian region of Spain and the northern tip of Morocco.
- "West Central European Zone" includes Eastern France and Central and Southern Germany.
- "Carpathian Basin" includes Hungary, Slovakia, Western Romania, Northern Croatia and Northern Serbia.
- "Nordic Zone" includes Southern Norway, Southern Sweden, Southern Finland, Denmark and Northern Germany and the Baltic states.

I won't describe them but there are also the "Tyrrhenian Zone, the "East Mediterranean Zone", and the "Minoan-Mycenaean Zone".

There is also a large swath across Southern Russia, the Ukraine, Moldavia and Romania.  That swath is called the "Steppes Zone."  

I was interested if these maps shows any links to the east.  I can't say they show a clear link.  Cunliffe does show that about 40% of the "Carpathian Basin" cultural zone overlaps with the Steppes Zone.  He also shows the Carpathian Basin as being adjacent (just of east) to the Gaulish language area.  I am a little puzzled that Cunliffe stops his Gaulish zone at the western edge of the Czech Republic.  Most maps show the eastern edges of Celtic culture crossing into the Carpathian Basin, don't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png
Is Cunliffe saying the Boii and other Celtics were a late (post 1300BC) movement to the east with no earlier cousins in the area of the Carpathian Basin during the 2800-1300BC timeframe?
What about archaic Q-Celtic?  What's the furthest east it is found?
Same question as far as Italic.  What's the furthest east it is found?



« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 11:49:00 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2010, 12:22:09 PM »

Just to clarify a possible point of confusion, the postulated Lusitanian language is different from the postulated Celtic Tartessian language, they are based upon a completely different set of texts, although located in neighbouring areas.
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Jean M
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2010, 12:52:52 PM »

I can print out the latest version of my P of E and press it into Prof. Cunliffe's hand. That has my speculative R1b movement map, but I don't have an up-to-date distribution map of L21. If someone can point me to one, I can stick it in.  

[Added] No matter - I can create a makeshift one from the Google maps R-L21* Map.


OK - R1b-L21 map added, with source on it. 

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rms2
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2010, 02:09:51 PM »

I got an email reply this morning from Dan Bradley. He simply thanked me for my email.

At least I know he got it, and I must say that getting a "Thank you, Richard" is better than nothing.
Thanks, Rich. 

Is there anyway to blitz all of these guys with a summary of R-L21's distribution, TMRCA age estimates, Vince V's diversity maps and Dr. Hammer's R1b1b2 subclade SNP expansion/origin map?

I don't understand how they think, but if I was someone sincerely interested in uncovering facts about the Celts I'd certainly appreciate information on potential genetic "discoveries."

I wouldn't suggest blitzing them. As it is, Dr. Koch's page, listing his email address, is no longer available at the U. of Wales web site. Did the single email I sent him do it? Or was he bombarded with emails from Celtomaniacs?

My email to Dr. Bradley was brief. I gave him a link to the R-L21 Plus Project web site and asked him to take a look at all (five) of its pages, and especially to take a look at the Google maps on our Results page.

Hopefully what I requested was easy enough to do and perhaps also intriguing enough that Dr. Bradey would want to do it.

He seemed interested enough back when I first contacted him back in 2009.
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Jean M
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2010, 05:01:44 PM »

I second the plea not to abuse access to busy people. The way to present new research is by publication. That is what academics expect. I've tried to stick to citing published papers, rather than unpublished research or commentary, but the amateurs are ahead of the field on some things, notably the significance of L21.

 
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« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2010, 07:51:23 PM »

I got an email reply this morning from Dan Bradley. He simply thanked me for my email.

At least I know he got it, and I must say that getting a "Thank you, Richard" is better than nothing.
Thanks, Rich.  

Is there anyway to blitz all of these guys with a summary of R-L21's distribution, TMRCA age estimates, Vince V's diversity maps and Dr. Hammer's R1b1b2 subclade SNP expansion/origin map?

I don't understand how they think, but if I was someone sincerely interested in uncovering facts about the Celts I'd certainly appreciate information on potential genetic "discoveries."

I wouldn't suggest blitzing them. ...

Quote from: JeanM
I second the plea not to abuse access to busy people...
Sorry, wrong word.  I didn't mean "blitz" them as in a high quantity of communications.  I should have used the word "overwhelm" them (their way of thinking) with a substantive quality package.

By that I mean, not just one map or table of data, but a several pointed charts and probably a summary chart or "executive" overview.
That's why I listed the Vizachero's R1b1b2 diversity cline map, Hammer's SNP origin/expansion chart, as well as the continental L21 map. Probably need to show M222's map as well.  We could also use Klyosov's variance's per country and perhaps his TMRCA estimates of the subclades.
We probably need an estimated % L21 per country which would include at least Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, France, Norway, Germany and Iberia.

If you look at the genetic information from a couple of summary formats,  it is compelling.  Many people get stuck on the high level R1b (not-subclade) hg by country maps and don't realize what the subclade and variance information is saying.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 08:06:39 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2010, 07:47:23 AM »

I just wonder how much any of these bigshots is going to accept from a hobbyist and amateur like me.

A brief email and a link to a five-page web site are things I think they might be willing to take in and digest, but a big collection of data is something else again.

If it came from Dr. Hammer or someone like that, yeah, they would sit up and take notice. But from me?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 07:48:02 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2010, 08:50:18 AM »

I just wonder how much any of these bigshots is going to accept from a hobbyist and amateur like me.

A brief email and a link to a five-page web site are things I think they might be willing to take in and digest, but a big collection of data is something else again.

If it came from Dr. Hammer or someone like that, yeah, they would sit up and take notice. But from me?
I agree with you, and I don't mean this negatively, that amateurs (including myself) have no credibility.

I also agree that they may not read 40-50 pages of material, but I don't think five charts and and a several paragraph summary would be too much.

The credibility is in the references of the charts, and like it or not, having a "doctorate" in the title with the nature of that background is probably important.

Even though these guys may seem like bigshots, I have enough optimism in people that "inquiring minds want to know" and these guys inquirers, no doubt.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 08:51:46 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2010, 09:21:47 AM »

I may publish something in due course. In the meantime the Peopling of Europe is out there. It aims to make clarity out of complexity. So I don't go into any more detail than I have to. The gist about L21 should be easy enough to grasp from one sentence and one image.

I shouldn't worry too much about the volume coming out next month. There is absolutely nothing that can be done now to influence its content, but the project is continuing and I wouldn't be surprised to see a new book from Prof. Cunliffe on the Celts further down the line. He's very interested in the genetic evidence.   
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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2010, 11:33:45 AM »

I may publish something in due course. In the meantime the Peopling of Europe is out there. It aims to make clarity out of complexity. So I don't go into any more detail than I have to. The gist about L21 should be easy enough to grasp from one sentence and one image.

I shouldn't worry too much about the volume coming out next month. There is absolutely nothing that can be done now to influence its content, but the project is continuing and I wouldn't be surprised to see a new book from Prof. Cunliffe on the Celts further down the line. He's very interested in the genetic evidence.   

Jean,
I have reread your paper "The Peopling of Europe" and it is the one of the clearest explanations of the migrations of ancient people in Europe and refreshingly written in plain English with beautiful illustrations.

I was fascinated by your Stelae People and the statues reminded me of the enigmatic pre Christian statues located on Boa Island in Lough Erne. Although much later that the Staelae People could there be any connection. Lough Erne is not far from the ancient Megalithic site of Carrowmore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boa_Island
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrowmore

My ancestors are believed to have lived at one time on the nearby White Island, where a stone marker with the old gaelic form of the name and Ogham script was found.
It would be useful to review the Cunliffe and Koch book when it comes out and publish a reply based on the latest genetic information available from this board as well as others.
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Jean M
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« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2010, 02:29:23 PM »

Jean,
I have reread your paper "The Peopling of Europe" and it is the one of the clearest explanations of the migrations of ancient people in Europe and refreshingly written in plain English with beautiful illustrations.

All praise is gratefully received! Recently I have been concentrating on improving some of the images, adding sub-sub-headings and revising for clarity. When text has been updated countless times, it can end up losing the flow. So I thought it was time for a polish-up.    

Quote
I was fascinated by your Stelae People and the statues reminded me of the enigmatic pre Christian statues located on Boa Island in Lough Erne.

Wow! Thanks! Those don't look like the Copper Age stelae, but a bit like much later Scythian balbals. The Janus figure is interesting. I must read up on it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 02:30:11 PM by Jean M » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2010, 03:57:30 AM »


Quote
I was fascinated by your Stelae People and the statues reminded me of the enigmatic pre Christian statues located on Boa Island in Lough Erne.

Wow! Thanks! Those don't look like the Copper Age stelae, but a bit like much later Scythian balbals. The Janus figure is interesting. I must read up on it.


Jean,
These Scythian Balbals are remarkably similar to the Boa Island figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_stelae
"Such stelae are found in large numbers in Southern Russia, Ukraine, Prussia, southern Siberia, Central Asia and Mongolia".
The Wiki article make no mention of them being found in Irleand. Has a connection ever been made before. Of course all the mythical Celtic Genealogies trace their ancestors back to the Scythian kings. I would be interested in the outcome of your research.

Edit:
From todays Irish Times, Bronze Age (4,000 bce) gold lunula crescent shaped collar put on display.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0624/1224273185886.html
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 04:40:12 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
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Jean M
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2010, 09:01:12 AM »

It would be useful to review the Cunliffe and Koch book when it comes out and publish a reply based on the latest genetic information available from this board as well as others.

I have created a blog post on the launch event and related matters: The Romantic Atlantic Route.

I have included my image taken from the R1b-L21 project, but also included the evidence from genome-wide studies, particularly the one published online yesterday specifically looking at Ireland and Britain. It provides no support for the Atlantic route.
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Jean M
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« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2010, 09:03:55 AM »

Of course all the mythical Celtic Genealogies trace their ancestors back to the Scythian kings.

I know. I thought you might wonder about that. But it doesn't add up genetically or archaeologically. I cover the various myths in European national origin stories.
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« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2010, 07:14:13 PM »

Of course all the mythical Celtic Genealogies trace their ancestors back to the Scythian kings.

I know. I thought you might wonder about that. But it doesn't add up genetically or archaeologically. I cover the various myths in European national origin stories.

Your piece there is very much in line with what I understand.  These myths have been exposed by academics for many decades.  I think too many people have books on the subject that are 50-100 years ld before scholars really dissected the myths.  One comment I would add is that Scythians seem to have originally been linked using the usual classical similar name=common origin approach to anthropology and history.  In the case of the link to the Irish it seems to have been the Scyth/Scotti comparison that they used although the story quickly got mixed up with the Picts too.
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