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Author Topic: Cunliffe's Map and R-L21  (Read 6226 times)
rms2
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« on: June 15, 2010, 09:20:47 PM »

If you have Barry Cunliffe's book, Europe Between the Oceans, take a look at map 8.18 on page 257, entitled, "The 'Celtic' Languages". The caption reads:

Quote
The map shows the extent of spoken Celtic in its various dialects in relation to the area of distribution of artefacts of the Atlantic Late Bronze Age. It could be argued that Celtic developed as an Atlantic facade lingua franca which spread along riverine exchange networks into the European hinterland.

Read the section entitled, "Atlantic-Facing Europe", pages 254-258. On page 258, after suggesting that some form of Indo-European was probably introduced to the Atlantic facade during the Neolithic Period, Dr. Cunliffe says this:

Quote
Celtic probably evolved in the Atlantic zone during the Bronze Age.

This is also apparently the opinion of Dr. John Koch, one of the world's foremost Celticists.

There is definitely some similarity between the map in Dr. Cunliffe's book and the distribution of R-L21.

I'm just throwing this out for discussion, not attempting to put it forth as settled dogma.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2010, 05:16:43 PM »

I quite liked some variation of the model as a development of language through trade and elite interaction although I am not sure I agree with the map in detail.  However, I think the project L21 map is more supportive of the old model of Celts than this Atlantic model.   
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2010, 11:29:51 PM »

Have you seen the recent article at the University of Wales related to work that Koch and Cunliffe are doing?
http://tiny.cc/ehyeu

Quote
Arguments based in archaeology and genetics have recently been put forward in favour of Celtic origins in the Atlantic Bronze Age rather than the central European territories of the early Hallstatt and La Tène archaeological cultures of the Iron Age.

Quote
Project publications will also include contributions by external experts in Linguistics, Archaeology, and Genetics. The first of these will be a collaborative volume to be published in 2010, edited by Koch and Cunliffe.

Reportedly, we will see new work which ties genetics in.  Unfortunately, my guess is their genetic data will not include the latest R1b1b2 sub-clade information.

My understanding of the maps is that Cunliffe's Atlantic Bronze Age zone is the true coastal areas including Portugal, these provinces of Spain: La Coruna, Lugo, Pontevedra and Orense (the vincinity of Galicia), French Brittany, Wales and the southern half of Ireland.  That's it (although I need to double check.. it seems like Cornwall would be included.)  I've been looking for some clusters that might cross these areas by I think we are talking about so long ago that only an SNP could signal the genetic link.   The problem is, I don't see any of the current R1b1b2 subclades that distribute across this Atlantic trade zone/network.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 11:30:57 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2010, 08:08:03 AM »

I don't have Cunliffe's book with me right now, but, as I recall, the map I referred to in my original post shows the Atlantic Bronze Age Network and the extension of early Celtic beyond it in conjunction with finds of artefacts from the network. It's that shaded area of the map (not just the portion within the Atlantic Bronze Age Network boundary line) which seems to me to be not too far off the distribution of R-L21.

I found this part of the article linked above by Mike very interesting:

Quote
However, a hypothesis of ‘Celticization from the West’ has yet to be fully formulated or tested in detail from the perspective of Celtic and Indo-European historical linguistics. Professor John T. Koch’s recent research on the Tartessian language of the Early Iron Age in southern Portugal and south-western Spain has now suggested similar preliminary conclusions. In its abundance, diversity, archaism, antiquity, and geographic and cultural remoteness from Hallstatt and La Tène, the Hispano-Celtic linguistic evidence sits more comfortably with a theory of Atlantic Bronze Age Celtic origins than with the established central-European model. Celtic scholars, especially in the English-speaking world, have not yet completely ‘factored in’ this material and its implications. Accordingly, the agenda of the project includes collecting, updating, and resifting evidence of the Bronze and Iron Age (third to first millennia BC) to evaluate the case for emergence of the Celtic subfamily of Indo-European in the west.

I think their ideas are certainly worthy of consideration, but I suspect that, if they will be ready to publish this year, they won't have much on L21, if anything, and that will be a serious shortcoming in their work, at least on the genetic side of things.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 08:09:16 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2010, 06:01:26 PM »

The volume edited by Cunliffe and Koch is coming out in July. I am going to the launch.

The book and its contents were discussed in April this thread: North Caucasus origin for P312 and U106?.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 06:01:54 PM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2010, 06:04:33 PM »

As I said there:

1) The "lingua franca"

Barry Cunliffe was forced into the dotty idea of Celtic becoming a "lingua franca" ... by the anti-migrationist dogma that wouldn't admit that real, live people actually moved into the British Isles, carrying a Celtic language (or several of them). So we were supposed to believe that the entire  population of two large islands completely abandoned their native tongue  and learned that of Iberia in order to speak to a few passing traders.

Thank goodness genetics has made it possible to drop that idea down a deep well. Looks like the volume edited by Cunliffe and Koch, due out this year, will argue that genuine, real, living Celts came from Iberia to the British Isles in the Bronze Age.

2) Out of Iberia

That still leaves said academics stuck with out-of-date genetics, which they thought backed this Iberian-British connection. They will catch up eventually.

3) Central Europe

The old idea was that the Celts spread in the Iron Age from the Hallstatt and La Tene centres. In fact they did. However it now looks as though that was just the last of a series of movements, rather than The Whole Story.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2010, 06:12:23 PM »

Here's the list of contributors to the volume: 

(Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra;

(Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley*; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik**;

(Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
----------------------------------------

* Previous publications:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006)

Brian McEvoy, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008)

**Ellen Christine Røyrvik,  a research fellow at the University of Oxford, working with Sir Walter Bodmer on http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 06:54:22 PM »

Here's the list of contributors to the volume: 

(Archaeology) Barry Cunliffe; Raimund Karl; Amilcar Guerra;

(Genetics) Brian McEvoy & Daniel Bradley*; Stephen Oppenheimer; Ellen Rrvik**;

(Language & Literature) Graham Isaac; David Parsons; John T. Koch; Philip Freeman; Dagmar S. Wodtko.
----------------------------------------

* Previous publications:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G. Bradley, Y-chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, Human Genetics (2006)

Brian McEvoy, Katharine Simms, Daniel G. Bradley, Genetic Investigation of the Patrilineal Kinship Structure of Early Medieval Ireland, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008)

**Ellen Christine Røyrvik,  a research fellow at the University of Oxford, working with Sir Walter Bodmer on http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/


Well, Bradley at least knows about L21. He and I exchanged a few emails about it over a year ago. I have to think he at least may have mentioned it to the others.

Maybe they will surprise us.
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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 07:12:58 AM »

Prof. Cunliffe saw my Peopling of Europe when it first went up in March last year. It was in a pretty raw state at the time, and I can't honestly recall what was in it. The earliest version that I have a copy of was printed out in July, and that mentioned L21.

The problem lies in the time-scale from research to publication. This volume mainly contains papers written for a conference in 2008. Some alterations could be slipped in during the editing process, but there comes a point when the text has to be handed over to the printers.
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 07:58:14 AM »

I know we dscussed this subject briefly back in April, so I apologize for seeming forgetful, but I could not remember which thread it was on, and Cunliffe's map (the one I mentioned in my original post) just struck me as fairly close to the distribution of R-L21.

It will be too bad if much of what they say in this new volume is just a rehash of the same tired, old "Ice Age R1b" stuff jazzed up with some blather about Neolithic E1b1b and J bringing Indo-European in from the Near East.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 07:59:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jean M
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 06:07:31 PM »

Don't worry. My memory is notoriously bad. I only found that thread again by search.

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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 09:20:34 PM »

If Tartessian is actually an early Celtic language and very archaic, as Dr. Koch indicates, and if the Q-Celtic of both Iberia and Ireland is the older form, then it would seem there is a Celtic language age gradient there from West to East rather than the other way around.

And Jean, haven't you maintained that there is a seaborne connection from the Black Sea to Iberia bringing, among other things, the same sort of stelae mentioned by Anthony in his book, The Horse, the Wheel and Language?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 05:20:43 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2010, 08:08:40 AM »

If Tartessian is actually an early Celtic language and very archaic, as Dr. Koch indicates, and if the Q-Celtic of both Iberia and Ireland is the older form, then it would seem there is a Celtic language age gradient there from West to East rather than the other way around.

And Jean, haven't you maintained that there is a seaborne connection from the Black Sea to Iberia bringing, among other things, the same sort of stela mentioned by Anthony in his book, The Horse, the Wheel and Language?

Map 8.18 in Cunliffe's book shows Q Celtic shaded for West and Central Iberia (Celtiberian and Lusitanian) along with all of Ireland, Scotland and the Western Isles as well as Lepontic (near Halstatt).
P Celtic is cross hatched for most of France and western Germany (Gaulish) England and Wales (Brittonic).
The illustration on the facing page shows almost identical designs for shields depicted in carved stelae found in Solance de Cabanas (near Tartessian) and actual shields found in bogs in Co. Longford in Ireland.
Among the 400 or so objects dredged from the river in nearby Huevla were 88 spearheads some of the Irish type.
It is interesting that in an earlier chapter "Assimilation in the Maritime Regions" he argues for a three route migration of the early Neolithic people into the Isles, including the great rivers of Europe and also the Atlantic facade (4,000 BC).
Anthony emphasised the maritime migration route from the earliest settlement of the Greek Islands using Byblos boats to the later Phoenician voyages beyond the Pillars of Hercules and settlement near Tartessian. The Megalithic builders 4,500 -3,500 BC traded along the Atlantic Facade including Brittany and Ireland.
He made the point that a round trip from Black Sea to the Pillars of Hercules and back again could easily be accomplished in the Summer sailing season using the favorable currents of the Meditteranean. He also pointed out that Neolithic people could navigate the great rivers of Europe from the Black Sea to the Atlantic coast in less than six months. We know that the later Vikings made bi annual raiding trips to the Isles  after sowing in the Spring and Harvest in the Autumn.
During the Bronze age, copper mines in Ross Island in Co. Kerry (2,500  - 2,400 BC) producing flat axes and halberds  and Gold Mines in Co. Wicklow producing gold collars (lunulae) were trading with the tin producers of Cornwall and the Morbihan Loire estuary (p206).
I am hoping that the new book will explore multiple waves of migration along the great rivers of Europe but also along the Atlantic facade. I also agree that it is essential to conduct a truely pan European study using the latest genetic technology and haplogroups.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 09:45:45 AM by Heber » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 08:29:23 AM »

I can really see why people are attracted to this idea.  Its very picturesque.  The important thing from the point of view of Iberia and R1b was to face down the ice age idea.  I cannot believe some people still buy into it.  I have a more open mind about later periods but people should note that the Atlantic Bronze Age is a rather wooly concept and what maps I have seen of various types of late Bronze Age material found in Ireland and the continent (including the so called Atlantic Bronze Age stuff) tends to suggest the link with Ireland was mainly with NW France and that the number of Iberian objects in Ireland is incredibly small.  I think if there was any sort of Atlantic trade network that it was relay style (this is what Cunliffe himself tends to argue in his books) with short hops leading across the Atlantic facade rather than huge open sea journeys.   I would repeat that the amount of Iberian material in Ireland is miniscule in the Bronze Age and pretty well non-existent in the Iron Age.  So this approach is very over-egged IMO.  If on the other hand they produce a load of new evidence (perhaps analysis of copper and tin sources and metalwork composition that link the areas then OK but I doubt it.  
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 05:28:21 PM »

I don't know that I am attracted to the idea, just that it is something to consider. I do like the idea that Koch and Cunliffe et al are considering options other than the usual Hallstatt-to-everywhere-else notion.

Either Iberia and Ireland spoke archaic forms of Celtic because they were at the western edge of Europe, i.e., they were backwaters, or they spoke archaic forms of Celtic because Celtic started in the West and worked its way east.

I know arguments from authority aren't all that good, but Cunliffe seems to think the Atlantic Bronze Age Network was real enough, and Koch doesn't seem to disagree.

However it comes out, it should be interesting to read what they come up with over the next few years. I sure hope that at some point someone takes L21 into account.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2010, 07:50:08 AM »

Prof. Cunliffe saw my Peopling of Europe when it first went up in March last year. It was in a pretty raw state at the time, and I can't honestly recall what was in it. The earliest version that I have a copy of was printed out in July, and that mentioned L21.

The problem lies in the time-scale from research to publication. This volume mainly contains papers written for a conference in 2008. Some alterations could be slipped in during the editing process, but there comes a point when the text has to be handed over to the printers.

I just sent Dr. Bradley an email giving him a very quick update on L21 and a link to the R-L21 Plus Project web site. I kept the email brief in the hope that he will read it.

Perhaps L21 looms large in my imagination because I am L21+, but I cannot see how anyone involved in deciphering the prehistory of Western Europe can avoid taking it into consideration.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2010, 10:11:57 AM »

Are they seriously arguing that the Atlantic Bronze Age marks a major migration.  I ask that because where you have some trade in metalwork between two areas but there is otherwise no similarity in other areas of their culture (pottery, houses, burial traditions etc) it is easier to see it as trade. Certainly if the burden of proof only requires some metalwork similarities then we could equally claim the scattering of La Tene and Hallstatt C metalwork in places like Ireland as evidence of Iron Age invasions from 'Gaul' and Britain.  I think if the bar is set as low as that in terms of inferring invasion then its practically a case of 'take your pick' and guessology. 

The Atlantic Bronze Age is not normally thought of as more than a trade network.  The weird thing is that the theory of an Atlantic origin for Celtic is down to a lack of convincing evidence for central European migration to the far west,  However, is swapping inferring based on one group of metalwork any better than another?  This is the wikipedia entry. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age

Its worth looking at the map carefully.  It hardly makes a convincing case in terms of a Q-Celtic Ireland-Iberia link. 



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Heber
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2010, 10:28:15 AM »

 I think if there was any sort of Atlantic trade network that it was relay style (this is what Cunliffe himself tends to argue in his books) with short hops leading across the Atlantic facade rather than huge open sea journeys.  

Alan,
I agree that the journeys were probably short hops along the Atlantic facade and I defer to your vastly superior knowledge of the archealogy of the period and the Bell Beakers in particular.
In the same book in map 7.22 Professor Cunliffe clearly shows the distribution networks of the Maritime Bell Beakers, in the Bronze Age, from the Rhone estuary, crossing the Garonne Axis to the Gironde estuary or around the south of Iberia, Cadiz and the Tagus estury, Morbihan and the Loire estury, Lower Flemish and the Rhine estuary, Wessex with additional arrows pointing to Ireland (Ross Island and Wicklow Mts.) and Western Britain. Figure 7.24 shows the early Irish Copper axes from the Cappeen hoard in Co. Cork, made probably in Ross Island and distributed in Britain.
According to the Wiki article on the Atlantic Bronze Age, "The origins of the Celts were attributed to this Atlantic Bronze Age in 2008 by Professor John Koch[2] and supported by Sir Barry Cunliffe[3] but this stands in contrast to the more generally accepted view that Celtic origins lie with the Hallstatt culture".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age

Map 6.15 shows the Megalithic Tombs (4,500-3,500) to be "essentially an Atlantic phenomenon...suggesting that the beliefs and technologies behind their construction were communicated along the Atlantic seaways".

By the time the Iron Age arrived P312 had already developed into L21. Could a branch of L21 have taken the direction of the Isles along the Atlantic facade and another branch ascended the great rivers to the Iron Age heartland of Halstatt. This could explain the division of Celtic into Q Celtic and P Celtic, which made its way through the European heartland along the great rivers to the Isles. Which brings us back to our initial point Map 8.18

Edit: Typos
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:42:08 AM by Heber » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2010, 11:24:26 AM »

Heber

The issue of how L21 is common in both the north Atlantic areas and deep in west-central Europe has always been a problem.  All I will say is that L21 does have a continental distribution that resembles that of 'Gaul', especially Celtic Gaul or Gallia Celtica. At the moment I think the project maps best match the traditional view of the isles linked to Gaul rather than an Atlantic facade idea. That may be misleading but certainly that is the way it looks so far. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2010, 11:38:58 AM »

Heber

I forgot to say, your idea of L21 splitting into two branches is one I have too pondered.  It seems to me that the best intermediate position for early L21 would have been southern France where it could easily have reached the Atlantic coast of France from the Garrone and south Germany etc from the Rhone.  A starting point elsewhere is possible and it is probably common for a clade to actually be rare where it first occurred.
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2010, 02:19:49 PM »

Are they seriously arguing that the Atlantic Bronze Age marks a major migration . . .

That is a good question, and it reminded me of something.

The gentlemen involved in this study are not known for being too big on invasion and migration as the means of spreading language and culture. I'm guessing that if they do take L21 into account, we may not like their conclusions. I'm guessing they will still see R1b as the "Paleolithic hunter-gatherer" haplogroup emerging from the Iberian Ice Age Refuge and only much later acquiring Celtic, imparted from E1b1b and J Neolithic farmers, as a lingua franca that facilitated trade.

If they don't do all that, they will have to reverse themselves and disavow much that they have already written.

I wouldn't look for them to do that. Instead they will probably double down on it and make it worse than it was.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2010, 05:12:10 PM »

I think it was Bradley who was on the blood of the Irish series a couple of years ago. Although entertaining it was still very much in the M269* Atlantic trogladytes versus the U106 and U152 real celts.  Much is debatable but one thing is not: S116 proved that the atlantic  celts were of the same stock as those from Gaul and west central Europe. Variance showed S116, L21 and U152 all were very closely related.  That is a sea change to the idea that the Celtic fringe people were pre-Celtic peoples who bad learned the language from a tiny minority or as a lingua Franca, ideas which had been around since the Victorian physical anthropologists who tended to view the Celtic fringe peoples in a pretty derogatory way. Now we know that the S116 clades collectively are the biggest group among the Swiss, the Irish, the French, Iberians, south Germans, north Italians etc
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Jean M
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2010, 06:38:12 PM »

And Jean, haven't you maintained that there is a seaborne connection from the Black Sea to Iberia bringing, among other things, the same sort of stelae mentioned by Anthony in his book, The Horse, the Wheel and Language?

Yes indeed. Here's my latest map: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/StelaePeople.jpg
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Jean M
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2010, 06:51:07 PM »

If Tartessian is actually an early Celtic language and very archaic, as Dr. Koch indicates, and if the Q-Celtic of both Iberia and Ireland is the older form, then it would seem there is a Celtic language age gradient there from West to East rather than the other way around.

Not exactly. Languages of northern Italy -  Ligurian and possibly Lepontic -  may be the most archaic. There is too little evidence to be sure, but Ligurian seems to be sort of Italo-Celtic. I strongly suspect from a few early references that "Ligurian" was the name the Greeks initially used for what I call the "Stelae People" all along the Mediterranean coast and up the Atlantic coast. By the time of the Roman geographers, the name was confined to the present Liguria in NW Italy.   
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Jean M
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2010, 07:08:26 PM »

If they don't do all that, they will have to reverse themselves and disavow much that they have already written.

Barry Cunliffe does that all the time. He is noted for saying "There is no such thing as a fact in archaeology". He happily points out that our interpretations of the same data tend to get revised every decade or so, in the light of new discoveries and/or perspectives.  The book you have been quoting from - Between the Oceans - was written in the midst of paradigm change, which he discusses on page 21. In fact I quote from him on the subject.

Quote
Some prehistorians went into a state of denial, implicitly refusing to accept that population movements had ever been a significant feature of European prehistory.
 
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