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rms2
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« on: June 05, 2010, 10:00:13 PM »

It may seem silly to try to figure out to what ancient tribe one's ancestors belonged, but I don't have much else going on this evening, so I thought I would post something on the subject.

My own paper trail is stuck in West Virginia in 1804 (part of Virginia back then), with the birth of my ggg-grandfather. However, I have an English surname, and my closest match (65/67) outside my own family is with a man who was born in England and whose family has always, at least as long as they can remember, lived in Shropshire.

Shropshire is in the West Midlands of England, and it seems most of my closest matches have surnames that are common in that area.

Anyway, my y-dna seems to point to Shropshire, at least for now. The ancient Celtic tribe who called Shropshire home was the Cornovii.

So, were my y-dna ancestors Cornovii? I don't know, but it's kind of fun to consider the possibility.

(I think I may have posted something along these lines on another thread here awhile back, but I cannot remember which thread it was.)

So, what was your ancient tribe? Any educated guesses?

« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 05:22:45 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2010, 10:48:20 PM »

I believe I am part of the R1b-Martian tribe (based on the number of my matches).
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vtilroe
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2010, 11:10:19 PM »

I have no solid idea - I could be descended from a Germanic kelt, or a Keltic german.  My y-DNA ancestral home is near the bottom, left-hand side, presumably somewhere along the red line of the Scheldt river, on the map given at this link:

http://ivan.ahk.nl/kaarten/lagelandenromeins.jpg
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 11:12:11 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2010, 01:04:41 AM »

My known Y line goes back to 1799 in Lackendarragh, Kilrush Parish, County Wexford, Ireland, and oral family History says we were in County Wicklow before moving to Wexford in the mid 1700s. My only close matches are with a guy from the north of Ireland and  guys with a Scots name who are from the north of Ireland.

However, like all L21s, the prevailing opinion is that we are all from the area of the Rhine. So, I guess I'd say my ancient tribe is the Germanic (or pre-Germanic) Tribe. This actually, would be the answer for any L21.
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2010, 06:58:50 AM »

If L21 actually originated somewhere near the Rhine, it did so so long ago that the designation "Germanic" would not apply. In fact, the Rhineland and most of western Germany was not Germanic-speaking until relatively late. I am going from memory, so pardon me if I am off somewhat, but I don't think Germanic tribes started arriving in western Germany, and especially SW Germany, until the 3rd or 2nd century BC. Before that, the area was mostly Celtic.

It seems to me likely that the first L21s to go to the British Isles brought some early form of Celtic speech with them.

Of course, language is not a biological trait. People can switch languages without any apparent genetic effects, but if L21 were primarily "Germanic" or "pre-Germanic" simply because it might have originated in SW Germany, then the prevailing languages in the British Isles before the Romans arrived should have been some kind of Germanic, and they weren't. The prevailing languages there were Celtic.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2010, 08:11:34 AM »

Aside from the Cornovii, there is the story or legend that at least some of the people with my surname are descended from a Breton knight with the surname FitzStephen who came to England with William the Conqueror.

I like that one, but who wouldn't?

Currently there is no way to prove it. Someday maybe they will find and exhume the body of "FitzStephen", miraculously get some decipherable y-dna from it, and then  (as the wonders continue to mount) my descent from him will be confirmed by a high-order y-dna match.

Overcome by the startling evidence, the governments of both the UK and France will award me lands and title, and Ridley Scott will make an heroic epic film about FitzStephen starring Russell Crowe in the title role.

(Probably my ancient or medieval match will come from the bones of some nameless peasant farmer recovered from beneath a dunghill.)

« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 08:44:06 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 02:52:56 PM »

Apologies for being flippant before. As a P312* from central England, I am unable to narrow down the issue of deep ancestry. Everything is open, nothing can be ruled out. My five closest matches from outside England include one each from Denmark, Germany, Scotland and Ireland. Take your pick.
I do however refer to my small cluster as the R1b-Martian cluster, as it has so very few members.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 02:56:47 PM »

If L21 actually originated somewhere near the Rhine, it did so so long ago that the designation "Germanic" would not apply. In fact, the Rhineland and most of western Germany was not Germanic-speaking until relatively late. I am going from memory, so pardon me if I am off somewhat, but I don't think Germanic tribes started arriving in western Germany, and especially SW Germany, until the 3rd or 2nd century BC. Before that, the area was mostly Celtic.

It seems to me likely that the first L21s to go to the British Isles brought some early form of Celtic speech with them.

Of course, language is not a biological trait. People can switch languages without any apparent genetic effects, but if L21 were primarily "Germanic" or "pre-Germanic" simply because it might have originated in SW Germany, then the prevailing languages in the British Isles before the Romans arrived should have been some kind of Germanic, and they weren't. The prevailing languages there were Celtic.
Agreed. If L21 was first born somewhere along the Rhine valley in the late Neolithic or Copper Age,  there were no Germanics anywhere in that area at the time. The Germanic culture and language probably formed in Scandinavia during what is called the Nordic Bronze Age, and they did not begin moving south until much later.
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Jean M
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 03:49:34 PM »

If L21 actually originated somewhere near the Rhine, it did so so long ago that the designation "Germanic" would not apply. In fact, the Rhineland and most of western Germany was not Germanic-speaking until relatively late. I am going from memory, so pardon me if I am off somewhat, but I don't think Germanic tribes started arriving in western Germany, and especially SW Germany, until the 3rd or 2nd century BC. Before that, the area was mostly Celtic.

That's right. The river name "Rhine" (Rhenus) is thought to be Celtic. A string of names of Roman places along it certainly were Celtic. See http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/2160/282/12/FalileyevMap.pdf (You can enlarge it to read the names.) 
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IALEM
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 05:54:09 AM »

My Y line goes back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so my guess is my Ancient tribe would be the Vascones, or maybe the Aquitani if the late Vasconization theory is true.
How my L21 acenstor from a supossedly origin in Central Europe arrived there is a mistery, maybe as Bell beaker (BB in the Basque Country came from the North), or later when Baques and Frank chiefs got familiar links.Normans also made several incursions and established a small settlement independent until the Normans were defeated by Sancho Abarca. BTW for some years there was a Saxon dux of Vasconia, so plenty of different chances.
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 07:21:18 AM »

 agree that it's an error to thnk of all of ancient Germany as german in a modern sense.  Only north Germany was Germanic until fairly late expansions into the rest of Germany happened. West, south and even central Germany were as Celtic as anywhere else and I suspect there is still a lot of Celtic blood in Germany. Most people think the Germans were confined to north Germany, north holland, Denmark etc until the last few centuries bc.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 07:49:55 AM »

The only thing I feel s a virtual certainty is that L21 must have passed through France on its way to the isles.  I wouldn't feel confident about anything else until the story of S116* is clearer. My own matches distribution very strongly suggest seafaring was involved in it's spread throught Atlantic Ireland and Scotland.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 08:01:50 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2010, 10:41:05 AM »

Apologies for being flippant before. As a P312* from central England, I am unable to narrow down the issue of deep ancestry. Everything is open, nothing can be ruled out. My five closest matches from outside England include one each from Denmark, Germany, Scotland and Ireland. Take your pick.
I do however refer to my small cluster as the R1b-Martian cluster, as it has so very few members.
I think I can now rank the options for myself but the ranking depends on data that is incomplete and still coming in.  It's already changed a couple of times.

As far as small clusters go, I think we should bear in mind that small today doesn't mean small in the real population.   It could just be that most of a "small" cluster remained back home in Europe in a place where DNA testing is not thought of.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:26:19 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Heber
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2010, 02:49:08 PM »

My ancestors lived in Clonfert Co. Galway. Their headstones are still readable in the graveyard of Clonfert Cathedral. This church is the oldest continuous place of worship in Ireland and is famous for its Hiberno Roman doorway. Near the family plot is the unmarked grave of Brendan the Navigator who founded the original church and monastery in 563.
Brendan sailed the North Atlantic in a Curragh with his fellow monks and his adventures are recorded in a 10th century manuscript Navigatio Sancti Brendani Abbatis. I am very interested in the maritime capabilities of the Celts as trade networks existed along the Atlantic façade for thousands or years.
The family was a traditional family of Erenaghs (managed Church land). This was significant as the Church owned over a third of land in Ireland at the time and the family produced Abbots, Bishops and Bards.  Many of the family locations are clustered around sites on early Christian monasteries. They were also connected into the network of  European Celtic monasteries and there are manuscripts in European universities of their doctoral studies in the 13th Century.
Further back in time they originated on the shores of Lough Erne in Fermanagh in the 6th century. According to celtic genealogies, Amruadh, the eponymous ancestor of the Corcorans lived in the early 6th C. This corresponds to the TMRCA of my genetic signature which is ~500 AD.  They are related to Eoghanacht, Dál Cais, and Clan Cian tribes and were one of the eight septs of the Ely O’Carrolls.  I am hoping that a sister clade of R1b-L226 will be found which proves this connection.
According to semi mythical Celtic genealogies, these tribes are descended from Heber who ruled over the southern half of Ireland and died in 1698 BC. Dr Anatole Klyasov latestest TMRCA for R1b-L21 is 3725±380 ybp.  I look forward to future research which may shed light on this interesting coincidence.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2010, 07:20:07 PM »

But Dr. Klyosov himself will tell you that, even though we have loads of Irish results, and plenty of them with 67 markers, Irish L21 is not the oldest L21. That honor goes to France, even though we have far fewer results from there and far fewer 67-marker haplotypes.  I think the L21 in England and Scotland is older than that in Ireland, as a matter of fact.
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OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 11:06:03 AM »

I raised an eyebrow having some L159+ matches with Leinster Surnames who claim descent from Cathair Mor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathair_M%C3%B3r

Curiously..for fun.. I'm waiting to see if there is a Toole( O'), and some Murphy's who are also  L159.2+

I suppose the Tribe would be Laigin. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/leinst2.htm

(or a viking turned Irishman...or are we all Romans?)

Gladiator Graveyard found...DNA would be nice.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jun/07/york-gladiator-graveyard

« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:50:18 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 05:51:44 PM »

Well, I never knew too much about my ancestors on my dad's side, considering I only found him when I was 20 years old. When I was 13, I went through a family tree book and noticed that my biological father had a different name than my stepfather at the time. This is how I found out who I am, so I contacted him. Long story short, my parents got remarried after 20 years of not seeing each other!

I do know that my MDKA, Renatus Downing, got excommunicated from the Primitive Baptist Church for starting a fight with another member of the congregation. Did I mention he was drunk? I just know we came from England.

Speaking of Romans, my mom's side (the side I knew my whole life) came from Southern Italy. That side is definitely Greco-Roman.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Heber
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 03:26:25 AM »

Tribes and Territories of Munster

"he modern province of Munster contains the counties of Clare, Cork, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford. Prior to the establishment of the county system between the 13th and 16th centuries, each county comprised a variety of "tuaths", or clan territories. The Leabhar na gCeart tells us the 22 stipendiary princes of Muma were the Kings of Dál Cais, Gabhrán, of Eoganacht (when not King of Cashel), the Deise, Ui Liathain, Raithleann, Muscraighe, Dairfhine, Dairfhine of the mt., of L. Léin, Ciarraighe Lúachra, Corca Bhaiscinn and Léim na Con, Ui Chonaill Gabhra, Ui Chairbre, Cliu, Uaithne, Eile, Glenn Amhnach, Corcu Luigde, Corcu Duibne, Boirenn, and Sechtmodh."

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/munster.htm

Dal Cais is associated with R1b-L226.
I guess many of the other have yet to be discovered.
I am working on the Eile  (Ely O'Carroll) which would be closest to my family name history.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


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Heber
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 06:23:12 AM »

Two powerful new genealogy tools released recently:

Sources for London Lives
A fully searchable edition of 240,000 manuscripts from eight archives and fifteen datasets, giving access to 3.35 million names.

http://www.londonlives.org/


"The household returns and ancillary records for the censuses of Ireland of 1901 and 1911, which are in the custody of the National Archives of Ireland, represent an extremely valuable part of the Irish national heritage, and a resource for genealogists, local historians and other scholars which has not as yet been developed to its fullest potential. The Irish diaspora is estimated to amount to 70 million people in all parts of the globe, and many of these have an interest in their family and local history".

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

The 1901 Census for England and Wales is at:

http://www.1901censusonline.com/

It would be interesting to map the frequency of names in the 1901 census with the tribe names and derived family names fom the historical period.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



appalachiaemmitt
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2010, 10:31:29 PM »

I've learned that genealogy and historical records must accompany any DNA analysis.  I've tracked our ancestry to 1691 in County Armagh, Ireland, but the coat of arms is from County Cork. (Quarterly per fess Indentured Or and Azure).  All coat of arms were issued to English subjects, not Irish dissidents.  This coat of arms was commissioned at the beginning of King Henry II's Norman Invasion when English Lords were issued Irish land grants.
     Oliver Cromwell nearly exterminated all the Irish Catholic population from 1648-1650 which further erased much of Ireland's ancestral archives.
   What is a "Last Name"?  Last names had no relevance till taxes were collected, which was the Roman times, and only then documentation depended on citizenship.  Usually it was the town who had to cough up tribute or else the whole town was whipped off the map.
   Last names might originate from occupation, certain clothing or special characteristics.  DNA has the capability to bridge 3000 years of lineage based on the family from Germany and the graves from a bronze age cave.  So why can't archeologists collect DNA samples from all known and newly discovered grave sites to connect to the modern day?  DNA has collected millions of samples from today's population, but for DNA to work in genealogy, we need to sample the ancient records as well.
   My last known relative was 1691, County Armagh, Ireland because Catholics were routinely hunted and killed, that's why they fled to America.  It was also here that many families changed their last names to survive the English onslaught.  It wasn't that I was frustrated that my research hit a dead end, it was that they survived in the history that much of us have forgotten. 
AppalachiaEmmitt
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A.D.
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2010, 02:52:30 PM »

It doesn't matter what the dna says everone still has me down as a Neanderthal!
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lyza
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2011, 07:21:32 AM »

   
What's Your Ancient Tribe? Any Educated Guesses?

Hello Members!
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Click below and gain experience of our Analysis!

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OConnor
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2011, 05:47:27 PM »

oooops...I think you forgot to add the link?

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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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