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jhaze
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« on: June 02, 2010, 01:41:25 PM »

Hey Everyone,

I've been doing some reading on my own, but I am fairly new to this hobby and I am looking for some advice from some of the experts on this forum.  Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Background: I just got my results back from the National Geographic Genographic Project last night and I found out I am R1b1b2.


Specifically,

13 - 24 -15 11 - 11 - 15 - 12 - 12 - 12 - 13 -13 - 29
   

 I know this measures ancient paternal ancestry, but I was surprised because both of my parents were born in Poland and I assumed I was going to be R1a.  My last name is Haze, which was changed from Hejza and  that was changed from something similar to Hesse.  Both my grandfather and great grandfather served in the polish military and I believe my great grandfather changed their name from Hesse (or something similar) to Hejza to make it look more polish than german.  Hesse pronounced in german is somewhat similar to how Hejza is pronounced in English (Hess-eh vs Hay-zah).  I have very to little information on my grandfather, let alone my great grandfather, so I have very little to go on.  Family tree dna says I have 86 exact matches, but none them are close to Hesse or something similar. 

Questions:
1) Given this information and the R1b1b2 haplogroup, it seems I might be of germanic, not polish/slavic origin, huh?
2) What would dyou advise/What is my best bet for further testing? Deep sub-clade test or 37 or 67 marker test?  Given I have no close surname matches at 12, what are the chances if I get a 37 or 67 marker.  I don't want to waste my money.  On the other hand, at least with the marker tests I getting something concrete vs. the deep sub-clade test which is just a very wide variety of theories.  Would a family finder (6 generations) be very helpful in your opinion.
3) Is there any interesting reading studies for polish R1b1b2 or german R1b1b2 you know about?

Thank you very much for you time and I look forward to reading any responses,

Jack Haze
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bart otoole
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 05:20:36 PM »

Jack,

you reallyshould upgrade to 37 or 67 and get a deep clade test.

12 markers does not tell much.  You and I match 12/12.  Based on 67 markers, I am of an Irish/Scottish cluster and L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5).

So, I recommend further testing to define your roots.

Bart O'Toole
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yDNA L21+ null 425


mtDNA T2e

GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 09:40:16 PM »

R1b1b2 has in fact been found in not only ethnic Poles, but Ukrainians as well. But it is certainly much more common in Germany.

A word of warning. This science is in its infancy and there aren't many instant answers. You may not have an answer to your questions even with a deep clade test and 67 markers, but you will know more than you do now. The journey of discovery is however one which has enthralled many of us. But while the pace at which it advances frustrates many of us, it is in fact amazing how much more we know now than we did just a few years ago.

Welcome to a fascinating hobby.

To specifically answer your question, I would go for a deep clade test and 37 markers, unless the cost of the works is not an issue.
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jhaze
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 02:01:07 PM »

Thank you both for the responses... They were very informative...

I figured both a deep clade test and further markers would be necessary, but thanks for verifying.  I wasn't sure if I could do the 67 markers and input the results into some sort of deep clade predicter, like I did with my haplogroup.  When I put my results in the haplogroup predictor, even though family tree dna has not confirmed my haplogroup, this program says I am 100% R1b.

I am wondering how you know you are a scotish/irish cluster.  How can you tell what kind of cluster your are and also how many clusters are there.  Also, given my polish background and possibly german, can you predict or let me know the probability of which deep sub-clad I am going to be?  I want to do some more reading, so any articles or helpful information for newbies would be appreciated, especially in regards to R1b or R1b1b2.


I would love to get 67, but I will probably get deep clade first and then 37.  Thanks :)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 02:32:35 PM »

Thank you both for the responses... They were very informative...

I figured both a deep clade test and further markers would be necessary, but thanks for verifying.  I wasn't sure if I could do the 67 markers and input the results into some sort of deep clade predicter, like I did with my haplogroup.  When I put my results in the haplogroup predictor, even though family tree dna has not confirmed my haplogroup, this program says I am 100% R1b.

I am wondering how you know you are a scotish/irish cluster.  How can you tell what kind of cluster your are and also how many clusters are there.  Also, given my polish background and possibly german, can you predict or let me know the probability of which deep sub-clad I am going to be?  I want to do some more reading, so any articles or helpful information for newbies would be appreciated, especially in regards to R1b or R1b1b2.


I would love to get 67, but I will probably get deep clade first and then 37.  Thanks :)

For general background, I recommend the R1b pages at both Wikipedia and Eupedia. Don't take anything you read there as gospel. As I said, this is a fast evolving subject and today's opinions might be completely disproved tomorrow. Certainly the consensus about R1b of a very short while ago (and still maintained by National Geographic) has been almost totally abandoned.

For predicting R1b subclades, they are all so closely related that it is generally difficult to impossible to predict subclades from STR markers alone. There are a few signatures that appear to be only found in one particular subclade, but for the majority there is just no way of knowing. Even DYS492 (part of the 67 marker test, but also available individually), which is very indicative of P312 vs. U106 status (these are the two main divisions of European R1b), is only about 90% reliable.  R1b in Germany is, I believe, divided roughly equally between P312 and U106, although some people like to identify P312 with the Celts and U106 with the Germanics, a notion that in my mind is more wishful thinking than fact.
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