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Author Topic: A Spanish R-L21 Cluster?  (Read 5160 times)
rms2
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2010, 03:03:41 PM »

I could only spot one non-Spanish guy in our project with 481=19: Hammerlaen, kit N3933, of the Netherlands.

Over at the R-P312 and Subclades Project, Hammerlaen is the only guy with 481=19.

I need to check some of the other projects when I get the chance.
Here is the other R-L21* non-Spanish guy that is 481=19:
30985 Michael Joseph Cullen, b.1801, Ireland (? Co. Tipperary or Co. Limerick)

He is in the 11-13 Combo project but never deep clade tested so I guess I should say he is "predicted" L21+.  Both 30985 Cullen and N3933 Hammerlaen, besides matching at 481=19, match on these other off-modals:
406s1=11 617=13 385=11,15 576=17 570=16.  Still, these two guys have a GD of 17 over 67.

So, the 11-13 thing must be fairly old, which explains why it pops up on the Continent as well as in the British Isles....
According to Klyosov, 11-13's TMRCA is at least 2000 ybp, probably more like 2500.  I'm not sure it should be considered a single clade ....well, other than it probably does come together before the L21 MRCA.    I guess all I'm saying is that just because someone is 11-13 doesn't mean they are closely related.  "Closely" is a relative term.   On the other hand, most of the 11-13 subgroups have TMRCA's of 800-1400 AD.

That's a good point, but perhaps those within L21 are related . . . but perhaps not, since 406S1 and 617 are but two markers, after all. Still, the tendency for 11-13 to pop up at those two places more within L21 than elsewhere is rather odd.
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Jdean
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2010, 08:49:28 PM »

That's a good point, but perhaps those within L21 are related . . . but perhaps not, since 406S1 and 617 are but two markers, after all. Still, the tendency for 11-13 to pop up at those two places more within L21 than elsewhere is rather odd.

I think this is a good point in cluster spotting. I think I've stumbled on a cluster in R-U106 that relies on three values. I've found these values in various haplgroups but it appears to be exclusive to U106 amongst R1b1b2 people which I'm sure is significant.
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

rms2
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2010, 07:36:51 AM »

Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9, went L21+ sometime yesterday evening. He is squarely in this cluster.

You can see the haplotype in the Spain category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project, too.

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rms2
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« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2010, 09:49:07 AM »

Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY, just got his L21+ result. He is also in this cluster. He is in the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project. His mdka was born in Mexico.
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rms2
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« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2010, 08:53:01 PM »

Calzada, kit 128223, got his L21+ result today. He is in this cluster. Calzada's ancestor came from Bilbao in Spain. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry of his own yet.
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 08:21:30 AM »

So, here's the progress on this cluster thus far.

Confirmed L21+
Romero, Ysearch 7K7QZ
Sampedro, Ysearch pp6sj
Calzada, Ysearch BDAWP (actually, I believe this is the Ysearch entry of a relative who is an exact match at the 25 markers listed)
Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY
Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9

Awaiting L21 test results
Archuleta, Ysearch BXPKT
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT

Thus far, the cluster is 100% L21+. Robles is on the fringe of it, having 390=23 and 459=9-10, so I'm waiting to see how his result goes. I hope he gets an L21+ result both because I simply want him to be L21+ and because it will help expand the search for new recruits.

There are a number of others in this cluster, like Lopez, Manchego, and Valencia. I have tried to contact them a number of times but have received no response. I guess they are either deceased or just not interested.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:22:11 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2011, 08:47:03 PM »

So, here's the progress on this cluster thus far.

Confirmed L21+
Romero, Ysearch 7K7QZ
Sampedro, Ysearch pp6sj
Calzada, Ysearch BDAWP (actually, I believe this is the Ysearch entry of a relative who is an exact match at the 25 markers listed)
Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY
Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9

Awaiting L21 test results
Archuleta, Ysearch BXPKT
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT

Thus far, the cluster is 100% L21+. Robles is on the fringe of it, having 390=23 and 459=9-10, so I'm waiting to see how his result goes. I hope he gets an L21+ result both because I simply want him to be L21+ and because it will help expand the search for new recruits.

There are a number of others in this cluster, like Lopez, Manchego, and Valencia. I have tried to contact them a number of times but have received no response. I guess they are either deceased or just not interested.


It's been almost a year since I last posted an update to this thread.

Anyway, all the members in this cluster who have tested have proven to be L21+, including those listed as waiting for results above.

We also added at least one additional cluster member since that time.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2011, 12:31:28 AM »

So, here's the progress on this cluster thus far.

Confirmed L21+
Romero, Ysearch 7K7QZ
Sampedro, Ysearch pp6sj
Calzada, Ysearch BDAWP (actually, I believe this is the Ysearch entry of a relative who is an exact match at the 25 markers listed)
Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY
Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9

Awaiting L21 test results
Archuleta, Ysearch BXPKT
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT

Thus far, the cluster is 100% L21+. Robles is on the fringe of it, having 390=23 and 459=9-10, so I'm waiting to see how his result goes. I hope he gets an L21+ result both because I simply want him to be L21+ and because it will help expand the search for new recruits.

There are a number of others in this cluster, like Lopez, Manchego, and Valencia. I have tried to contact them a number of times but have received no response. I guess they are either deceased or just not interested.


It's been almost a year since I last posted an update to this thread.

Anyway, all the members in this cluster who have tested have proven to be L21+, including those listed as waiting for results above.

We also added at least one additional cluster member since that time.

This guy isn't in that Spanish cluster, but I'm trying to get him to deep clade test. He's 406s1=11 617=13 so I think there is a good chance he is L21+... however, he does have some other strange marker results that make him sort of one of a kind.

f202314___ Felino Fernández, b.c.1800's, Asturias, Spain__ CB596
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2011, 08:34:05 AM »

Interesting. That 11-13 cluster seems to be pretty widespread. What is your age estimate on it thus far?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2011, 09:28:10 AM »

Interesting. That 11-13 cluster seems to be pretty widespread. What is your age estimate on it thus far?
Anatole Klyosov has it as right at "B.C."   Alex Williamson has it at 200 BC, give or take 500-600 years.

It kind of feels like the MRCA was a Gaul.  Some may have fled the Roman Empire early and established themselves in the Isles.  Others integrated or survived in Romano-Gaul and came into the Isles later.  I don't know.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 09:28:26 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2011, 08:51:52 PM »

So, here's the progress on this cluster thus far.

Confirmed L21+
Romero, Ysearch 7K7QZ
Sampedro, Ysearch pp6sj
Calzada, Ysearch BDAWP (actually, I believe this is the Ysearch entry of a relative who is an exact match at the 25 markers listed)
Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY
Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9

Awaiting L21 test results
Archuleta, Ysearch BXPKT
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT

Thus far, the cluster is 100% L21+. Robles is on the fringe of it, having 390=23 and 459=9-10, so I'm waiting to see how his result goes. I hope he gets an L21+ result both because I simply want him to be L21+ and because it will help expand the search for new recruits.

There are a number of others in this cluster, like Lopez, Manchego, and Valencia. I have tried to contact them a number of times but have received no response. I guess they are either deceased or just not interested.


Since Robles went L21+ I wonder if that changes the TMRCA of this cluster much. He was the one furthest off the other guys, as I recall.
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