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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2010, 07:36:14 AM »

I'm not sure about that Lopez entry, and I don't have time right now to check it, but that should be almost all of the FTDNA-tested guys. There is one more, Robles (Ysearch G9CRT), who is on the fringes of the cluster. He will either go L21+ and expand it or not.

That makes ten, and then there are four in SMGF (at least with the markers I was able to check there). I could get surnames for two of them, Arce Marquez (of Peru) and Ortiz (of Mexico, as I recall). The other two had "protected" surnames but listed place of origin as Mexico.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:39:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 07:53:49 AM »

I'm not sure about that Lopez entry, and I don't have time right now to check it, but that should be almost all of the FTDNA-tested guys. There is one more, Robles (Ysearch G9CRT), who is on the fringes of the cluster. He will either go L21+ and expand it or not.

That makes ten, and then there are four in SMGF (at least with the markers I was able to check there). I could get surnames for two of them, Arce Marquez (of Peru) and Ortiz (of Mexico, as I recall). The other two had "protected" surnames but listed place of origin as Mexico.

Okay, yeah, that's the right Lopez, too.

So, I count at least 12 different Spanish surnames, including the two I could glean from SMGF. I don't know what the other two surnames in SMGF are, so I cannot say they aren't reruns of a couple of the others.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 07:54:22 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2010, 07:34:59 AM »

Mr. Calzada has joined the R-L21 Plus Project and is now awaiting his L21 result.
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OConnor
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« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2010, 07:05:31 AM »

Do you think it's time FTDNA added a new catagory to their Projects page.
listing SNP Projects for the different Haplogroups ?

It seems to me that not many know about projects like R-L21 or R-L159.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2010, 07:46:03 PM »

Anatole (whose date usual agree roughly with the other number crunching experts) believes that the cluster are descendants of a common ancestor of c. 1100AD despite different surnames.  So, if a reasonable chunk of Iberian L21 is down to one guy who lived c. 1100AD then it is telling us very little about L21 in Iberia in prehistoric times.  It actually makes the Iberian L21s who are not in this cluster more interesting from a deep-time perspective.  I wonder if their is a contrast in distribution between those in the cluster and not in the cluster in Iberia. 
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2010, 08:41:04 PM »

Anatole (whose date usual agree roughly with the other number crunching experts) believes that the cluster are descendants of a common ancestor of c. 1100AD despite different surnames.  So, if a reasonable chunk of Iberian L21 is down to one guy who lived c. 1100AD then it is telling us very little about L21 in Iberia in prehistoric times.  It actually makes the Iberian L21s who are not in this cluster more interesting from a deep-time perspective.  I wonder if their is a contrast in distribution between those in the cluster and not in the cluster in Iberia.  

I wonder how many male children El Cid fathered. :-)

Archuleta is a Basque surname, and his ancestor came from Guipuzcoa in the Basque country. Calzada's ancestor came from Bilbao in the Basque country, but I am told Calzada is not a Basque surname but originated in nearby Cantabria.

Sampedro's ancestor came from Matienzo in Cantabria. Romero cannot trace his ancestor to Spain, although that is surely a Spanish surname. The World Names Profiler says it is most common in Andalucia, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha, and Madrid, and is also fairly common in Galicia.

Robles, who is on the fringes of the cluster and may expand its TMRCA a bit, also cannot trace his paper trail to Spain. The World Names Profiler has the surname Robles as most common in Castilla y Leon, Madrid, Andalucia, and Murcia.

Of the rest of our Spaniards (those not in this cluster) who can trace their ancestry to Spain, Pais and Lanso are Catalans, Trujillo traces his ancestor to Cadiz, and Montero's ancestor came from Extremadura. Arrizabalaga and Olazabal are both Basques. Arevalo has his map pin stuck in Madrid, but I'm not sure that is where his ancestor came from.

We also have two Portuguese guys, Costa and Vargas, from different islands in the Azores, and I know of another Portuguese R-L21 whose ancestor came from Portugal's NW coast.

There is also Barreto, who has not joined the project. I don't know where in Spain his ancestor came from, but I am told that is a Galician surname. Larrea has also not joined the project, but that is a Basque surname.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 08:53:50 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2010, 04:56:45 AM »

So 3 out of 4 who are certainly in the cluster that you listed are linked to the Basque country and Cantabria next door.  That is  far from random and shows a very strong tendency (75%) to the 2 NE regions of Spain.  

Then of the 11 who are not in the clluster 3 are probably Basques and 2 Catalans.  That again to my mind is a  strong bias (45%) towards the same general NE of Spain.  The remainder 6 are very thinly scattered.  

Overall t is pretty remarkable that of the 16 Iberian L21s , 8 of them come from three of the north-eastern regions of Spain close to France.  That is 50% packed into only 3 regions (I think there are 16? regions in Spain and do not forget too that the total of L21s also includes Portugal).  If you look only at Spain then its even more remarkable that 8 out of 13 appear to come from 3 of the Spanish NE regions.  That is 62%.  That is very far from random in my book and surely is a concentration.   Or to put it in a negative way the whole of Spain outside these 3 NE regions has only 5 L21s .  Even then,  it should be noted that we are party using surname origins to guess ancestral locations in several cases.  My preliminary observations would be

1. Nearly a third of the total Rich listed there may be in one late cluster,
2. Both the L21 in the cluster and the Iberian L21 outside the cluster have very strong biases towards three NE Spanish regions.  
3. Outside the NE L21 remains very thinly scattered in Spain.

Its hard to know what to make of all that but one thing I think must be resisted is any attempt to link it with one particular Iberian group.  Even the list Rich made there includes Basques, Catalans, Cantabrians, Castillians, Portuguese etc.  I think there is clearly a very strong bias to the north-east but even here it is a mix of Catalans, Basques and Cantabrians.  

As I posted earlier the cluster is a late one so we have no idea where the one Medieval L21 guy who they descend from lived although I would personally strongly suspect the Spanish-French border area given the strong bias in that direction for both the cluster and non-cluster Spanish L21.  The fact that even modest sampling has found a number of descendants of one Medieval guy scattered about is interesting and make you wonder who he was.   The fact that the non-cluster people also are screwed to the same area of north and eastern Spain does suggest there may have been a small L21 hotspot somewhere there or perhaps just over the border in France and perhaps the cluster founder emerged from there.   The Basques and Catalans have histories that straddle the Spanish-French border.  

One big question for me remains Atlantic Iberia.  There are a couple of Azores guys, one mainland Porugese and one guy with a possible Galician surname.  I have to admit that the Azores history makes me dubious about any conclusions from them.  A couple of guys  potentially from the mainland Portugal/Galicia Atlantic coast is not a lot.  However, I think perhaps it remains an unknown.  I do wonder because many L21 areas are what I would call well known ancient maritime zones with seafaring traditions - NW France, Norway, Britain, Ireland, even the Rhine would have been a major highway to and from central Europe.  We could possibly add NE Spain to that (the Basques were known sailors).  That makes the Galicia and Portugal area of especial interest because they had (and still seem to have) a big seafaring tradition.  It would be interesting t know if the maritime location and L21 count also have a correspondence there.    To date this does not seem to be the case as there are 8 people in mainland Portugal and Galicia who are S116* on the project maps compared to no L21s.  I have not counted the Azores but if you add them then there are 11 S116* to 2 L21s in that region.  I know there is someone not in the project and someone who may have a Galician surname but if the same was applied to S116* I am sure its numbers would expand too. So, it seems that the Portugal/Galicia area is much more strongly S116* than L21, as with most of Iberia.  I think a straight L21-S116* comparison is valid as both by definition require and L21 test to have taken place.  To put the L21 count into perspective in this Atlantic Iberia area, it is worth noting that even U106 is better represented in area (2 in Galicia) on the project maps.  So, the concept of a significant L21 presence in Atlantic Iberia is at present is still hypothetical.  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:53:29 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2010, 08:13:48 AM »

Clearly there is a lot more R-P312* in all of Iberia than there is R-L21, but P312* is a paragroup that probably will eventually be parsed into a number of different subclades. If that happens, then the L21 numbers in Spain will compete, not with a single megablock R-P312* as is the case now, but on a more equal footing with a number of smaller subclades. That is, unless the R-P312* in Iberia all turns out to be one thing, which I doubt is the case.

What gives me pause about the idea of L21 spilling over from France into Spain is our current lack of French R-L21 anywhere near the Spanish border. Maybe that will change.

While I think this newly-discovered Spanish R-L21 cluster may gravitate toward the Northeast of Spain, I am not really sure that will be true of Spanish L21 as a whole. Part of the problem is that we don't have enough Iberian R-L21 men who can actually trace their ancestors to an identifiable location in Spain or Portugal.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:19:13 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2010, 03:28:32 PM »

I feel that even with a sample of 16 or so of L21 that that is enough to make a strong trend unlikely to be chance.  The one mitigating factor I can think of is that R1b as a whole is a lot stronger in the east of Iberia than Galicia etc so the chances of picking up L21 is reduced.   I think comparison of project maps of well located S116* against L21 remains a useful tool as both need an L21 test (so there is no head start such as U152 and U106 have against L21) and all have the same criteria regarding paper trails to meet. So I think at least the L21-S116 ratio can be roughly established.  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:30:37 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2010, 03:45:26 PM »

But the L21/P312* ratio isn't all that meaningful until P312 is broken down into its constituent parts (unless one assumes it is one, single, monolithic thing in Iberia). Having more P312* there just means that L21 lags behind the sum of all the subclades that go into what is currently lumped together as "R-P312*".

Right now I would guess there are at least two (and probably more) subclades comprising what we currently call R-P312* in Iberia. There is the R1b North-South cluster, which I suspect is on the same branch of P312 as R-M153, since they both have similar haplotypes, with 437=14, 448=18, and many of the M153 guys sharing H4=10  with the R1b N-S guys (although some M153 guys have H4=11). R1b N-S is no doubt a subclade of P312. There is probably at least one other as-yet-unknown subclade of P312 in Iberia, and perhaps more.

Once R-P312* is broken down into its constituent subclades, L21 may turn out out to be one of the most frequent subclades in Iberia, after R-SRY2627 (R1b1b2a1b3).

I think one has to consider this (the fact that R-P312* is a paragroup and probably not just one thing) everywhere he compares R-P312* to L21 or to any other subclade.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:47:52 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2010, 04:31:35 PM »

I do not disagree with any of that.  For me the ratio is just another way of trying to tease out what % of R1b1b2 L21 is in a given area.  I totally agree that S116* will break down further. In fact its probably my biggest interest in yDNA other than L21.  The understanding of L21 is hampered badly by the lack of understanding of the story of S116.   I find what you said about the R1b North-South cluster really interesting i.e. that it may be on the same branch of P312 as R-M153.  Any thoughts on how that relationship works.  If I recall M153 is Basque centred.  

It weird the Basques seem to be making a comeback in these issues again.  What is odd to me is even the Iberian Beaker theory of R1b1b2 spread is a western Iberian origin.  I cannot think of a Basque country /north Iberia originated movement (an area that was a real backwater in many periods) unless one goes all the way back to the end of the Palaeolithic. It was a backwater in the Mesolithic, Neolithic and I think pretty well remained that way for much of prehistory.  For that reason I find it really hard to see the Basque area as the origin point of something widespread like N-S. Are you thinking that N-S is some sort of diaspora from there or the other way round?  It is always possible that people move around without leaving traces/under the archaeological radar but in a pre-industrial and pre-market economy society where everything is home made/folk crafts you would expect settlers to have brought traditions from the country of origin and therefore be detectable.  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 04:36:09 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2010, 04:54:28 PM »

The key markers of the R1b N-S seem to be shared with R-M153, which leads me to think there is a branch off of P312 that they are both on. It could be something, and it probably is, that predates the Basques as a distinctive ethno-linguistic group and originated somewhere besides NE Spain.

But I could be totally wrong, and maybe the only thing M153 and the R1b N-S have in common is that they are both P312+.

I still think the general R1b1b2 trend, which holds true for P312, as well, is East to West. That is not to say clades like M153 and SRY2627 didn't originate in Iberia. But if they did, it was from P312 progenitors who came in from the other side of the Pyrenees or perhaps by boat from the Mediterranean (either way, from the East).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 04:57:16 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2010, 06:05:43 PM »

The key markers of the R1b N-S seem to be shared with R-M153, which leads me to think there is a branch off of P312 that they are both on. It could be something, and it probably is, that predates the Basques as a distinctive ethno-linguistic group and originated somewhere besides NE Spain.

But I could be totally wrong, and maybe the only thing M153 and the R1b N-S have in common is that they are both P312+.

I still think the general R1b1b2 trend, which holds true for P312, as well, is East to West. That is not to say clades like M153 and SRY2627 didn't originate in Iberia. But if they did, it was from P312 progenitors who came in from the other side of the Pyrenees or perhaps by boat from the Mediterranean (either way, from the East).

I even once saw a post suggesting that N-S if down to the Visigoths and therefore due to movement in the opposite direction.  I wonder if anyone has ever compared variance of the N-S people in various areas to try and located its point of origin.
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2010, 03:14:55 PM »

Davila has finally joined the project and is now awaiting an L21 test result.

So, here's the progress on this cluster thus far.

Confirmed L21+
Romero, Ysearch 7K7QZ
Sampedro, Ysearch pp6sj

Awaiting L21 test results
Archuleta, Ysearch BXPKT
Calzada, Ysearch BDAWP (actually, I believe this is the Ysearch entry of a relative who is an exact match for our Calzada at the 25 markers listed)
Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY
Garcia, Ysearch ZQ6P9
Robles, Ysearch G9CRT

I still have not heard from Lopez, Manchego, or Valencia. I'm still hoping they will contact me.
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2010, 09:54:15 PM »

I just noticed something that could be quite important. The only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes, Sampedro and Calzada, both have 481=19.

481 is a slow-mutating marker. The R1b1b2 modal there is 22. R-M222, for example, can be identified by its somewhat unique 481=25.

So the fact that the only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes just happen to have 481=19 seems to me more than coincidence.

Hmmm . . .
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 10:32:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2010, 11:44:04 PM »

I just noticed something that could be quite important. The only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes, Sampedro and Calzada, both have 481=19.

481 is a slow-mutating marker. The R1b1b2 modal there is 22. R-M222, for example, can be identified by its somewhat unique 481=25.

So the fact that the only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes just happen to have 481=19 seems to me more than coincidence.

Hmmm . . .
I'm not saying 481 is not important but I wouldn't call it slow moving. 
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm
It's the 55th slowest STR of FTDNA's first 67 so it is 13th fastest.

The noteworthy thing about M222 is that 481=25 is +3 off the modal of 22.  481=19 is -3 off the modal.  Distance from the modal is of significance. 

Other than these Spanish guys I can't find any 481=19 guys with R-L21* although I did find eight 481=18 guys.  The majority of those eight are Irish Type II/South Irish (565=11 385b=15 447=24 391=10 442=13 439=11 456=15) guys.
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2010, 08:01:02 AM »

I just noticed something that could be quite important. The only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes, Sampedro and Calzada, both have 481=19.

481 is a slow-mutating marker. The R1b1b2 modal there is 22. R-M222, for example, can be identified by its somewhat unique 481=25.

So the fact that the only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes just happen to have 481=19 seems to me more than coincidence.

Hmmm . . .
I'm not saying 481 is not important but I wouldn't call it slow moving.  
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm
It's the 55th slowest STR of FTDNA's first 67 so it is 13th fastest.

The noteworthy thing about M222 is that 481=25 is +3 off the modal of 22.  481=19 is -3 off the modal.  Distance from the modal is of significance.  

Other than these Spanish guys I can't find any 481=19 guys with R-L21* although I did find eight 481=18 guys.  The majority of those eight are Irish Type II/South Irish (565=11 385b=15 447=24 391=10 442=13 439=11 456=15) guys.

481 is slow-moving in the sense that it is not one of FTDNA's red fast-mutators. It is classed by FTDNA as a slower-mutating marker.

It may not be the absolute slowest marker, but it's not one of the handful of fast mutators either.

I'm not sure what bearing Irish Type II has on this cluster. Are you seeing a relationship?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 08:07:39 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2010, 09:07:30 AM »

I just noticed something that could be quite important. The only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes, Sampedro and Calzada, both have 481=19.

481 is a slow-mutating marker. The R1b1b2 modal there is 22. R-M222, for example, can be identified by its somewhat unique 481=25.

So the fact that the only two guys in this cluster with 67-marker haplotypes just happen to have 481=19 seems to me more than coincidence.

Hmmm . . .
I'm not saying 481 is not important but I wouldn't call it slow moving.  
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm
It's the 55th slowest STR of FTDNA's first 67 so it is 13th fastest.

The noteworthy thing about M222 is that 481=25 is +3 off the modal of 22.  481=19 is -3 off the modal.  Distance from the modal is of significance.  

Other than these Spanish guys I can't find any 481=19 guys with R-L21* although I did find eight 481=18 guys.  The majority of those eight are Irish Type II/South Irish (565=11 385b=15 447=24 391=10 442=13 439=11 456=15) guys.

481 is slow-moving in the sense that it is not one of FTDNA's red fast-mutators. It is classed by FTDNA as a slower-mutating marker.

It may not be the absolute slowest marker, but it's not one of the handful of fast mutators either.

I'm not sure what bearing Irish Type II has on this cluster. Are you seeing a relationship?
I don't see the relationship of the Irish Type II people with the Spanish Cluster but I'll look a little harder.

The reason I use the STR rates at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm
is that is what I have written down as recommended in a rootsweb conversation between Vince V, Ken N and Tim J.  I have in my notes that these were the best to use. I think these are the combination of Leo Little and Bob Chandler rates.  Does FTDNA publish their mutation rates? I'd like to compare.

Anyway, 481 is 13th fastest out of 67 at the web site listed.  To compare, 481 mutates once every 184 generations. 406s1 once every 651 generations. 472 once every 67,000 gen. 425 once every 5,600 gen.   Meanwhile, CDY is once only every 28 generations!   I think that is the main point I'd like to make.  The mutation rates are vastly different between STR markers so it is important to have understanding of the depth of the differences.

I think the nice thing about 481 having a real high (as in NW Irish/M222) or a real low value (as in the Spanish cluster) is shown nicely here by Kerchner:
http://www.kerchner.com/r1bproject/histograms/pages/001D481.htm

It IS rare to be 481=19 like the Spanish guys.  Kerchner's chart is a bit out of date, but as noted in a prior post, within L21* only the Spanish guys have it so it may be a tell-tale sign.  As also noted, the South Irish/Type II guys go one better (further from modal) by being 481=18.  That means at one time their lineage had 481=19 as well.  I'll look at some other markers in comparing the two groups.

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« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2010, 12:50:04 PM »

I was just going by FTDNA's color coded system: black for slow mutators (they have 481 in black), red for fast mutators. Based on the chart at the link you gave, it's hard to see why FTDNA would call 481 a slow mutator. I don't know if they have a list of mutation rates published anywhere.

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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2010, 03:02:02 PM »

I could only spot one non-Spanish guy in our project with 481=19: Hammerlaen, kit N3933, of the Netherlands.

Over at the R-P312 and Subclades Project, Hammerlaen is the only guy with 481=19.

I need to check some of the other projects when I get the chance.
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2010, 06:53:55 PM »

There is one guy in the R-SRY2627 Project with 481=19, but he also has 490=10, which is somewhat (although not totally) unique to R-SRY2627.

I couldn't find anyone in the R1b-U152 Project with 481=19.

There are four guys in the R-U106 Project with 481=19, but they also have 492=13.

The R-M153 Project currently has only one guy with a 67-marker haplotype, but he does not have 19 at 481.

And I couldn't find any R-P312* guys with 481=19.

So, we'll see if it means anything to R-L21 when 490 and 492 also both equal 12. Anyway, it could be the modal for this Spanish cluster.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 06:54:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2010, 10:27:53 PM »

I could only spot one non-Spanish guy in our project with 481=19: Hammerlaen, kit N3933, of the Netherlands.

Over at the R-P312 and Subclades Project, Hammerlaen is the only guy with 481=19.

I need to check some of the other projects when I get the chance.
Here is the other R-L21* non-Spanish guy that is 481=19:
30985 Michael Joseph Cullen, b.1801, Ireland (? Co. Tipperary or Co. Limerick)

He is in the 11-13 Combo project but never deep clade tested so I guess I should say he is "predicted" L21+.  Both 30985 Cullen and N3933 Hammerlaen, besides matching at 481=19, match on these other off-modals:
406s1=11 617=13 385=11,15 576=17 570=16.  Still, these two guys have a GD of 17 over 67.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 10:31:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
OConnor
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2010, 06:42:58 AM »

Is 17 off a big deal?
I am G/D of 20 from Nealthered, and we are both R-L159.2+ (at 67)
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rms2
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2010, 07:15:00 AM »

I could only spot one non-Spanish guy in our project with 481=19: Hammerlaen, kit N3933, of the Netherlands.

Over at the R-P312 and Subclades Project, Hammerlaen is the only guy with 481=19.

I need to check some of the other projects when I get the chance.
Here is the other R-L21* non-Spanish guy that is 481=19:
30985 Michael Joseph Cullen, b.1801, Ireland (? Co. Tipperary or Co. Limerick)

He is in the 11-13 Combo project but never deep clade tested so I guess I should say he is "predicted" L21+.  Both 30985 Cullen and N3933 Hammerlaen, besides matching at 481=19, match on these other off-modals:
406s1=11 617=13 385=11,15 576=17 570=16.  Still, these two guys have a GD of 17 over 67.

So, the 11-13 thing must be fairly old, which explains why it pops up on the Continent as well as in the British Isles.

There is another non-Spanish guy who has 481=19 and is probably L21+, too. Last night I ran a set of run-of-the-mill R1b1b2 markers, with 481=19, 490=12, and 492=12. I saw Cullen and this other guy. I don't remember his name for certain, but I think it was Ponder or something like that. He's not in the Spanish cluster (of course, neither are Hammerlaen or Cullen). I don't feel like going back and rerunning everything now to verify who that was (and I don't have time this morning anyway).

EDIT: Yeah, it was Ponder, Ysearch 7FK7E, whose ancestor came from Middlesex in England. He's not an 11-13 guy though.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 07:20:51 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2010, 10:53:29 AM »

I could only spot one non-Spanish guy in our project with 481=19: Hammerlaen, kit N3933, of the Netherlands.

Over at the R-P312 and Subclades Project, Hammerlaen is the only guy with 481=19.

I need to check some of the other projects when I get the chance.
Here is the other R-L21* non-Spanish guy that is 481=19:
30985 Michael Joseph Cullen, b.1801, Ireland (? Co. Tipperary or Co. Limerick)

He is in the 11-13 Combo project but never deep clade tested so I guess I should say he is "predicted" L21+.  Both 30985 Cullen and N3933 Hammerlaen, besides matching at 481=19, match on these other off-modals:
406s1=11 617=13 385=11,15 576=17 570=16.  Still, these two guys have a GD of 17 over 67.

So, the 11-13 thing must be fairly old, which explains why it pops up on the Continent as well as in the British Isles....
According to Klyosov, 11-13's TMRCA is at least 2000 ybp, probably more like 2500.  I'm not sure it should be considered a single clade ....well, other than it probably does come together before the L21 MRCA.    I guess all I'm saying is that just because someone is 11-13 doesn't mean they are closely related.  "Closely" is a relative term.   On the other hand, most of the 11-13 subgroups have TMRCA's of 800-1400 AD.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 10:54:27 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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