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Author Topic: A Spanish R-L21 Cluster?  (Read 9224 times)
rms2
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« on: June 01, 2010, 09:37:06 PM »

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12

439=11

459a=10

447=24

449=31-32

464a=14

456=15

607=16

438=11


Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.

Archuleta BXPKT

Calzada BDAWP

Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)

Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)


I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2010, 11:04:09 PM »

If you find another cluster, Rich, one of these folks may be up for WTY.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 12:38:07 AM »

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12
439=11
459a=10
447=24
449=31-32
464a=14
456=15
607=16
438=11


Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.
Archuleta BXPKT
Calzada BDAWP
Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)
Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)


I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).


I agree.   This looks like a clade.  Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it.  Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

yBXPKT   Archuleta, b.Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain    BXPKT,
f167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain)   7K7QZ,
f46334   Pedro Sampedro, 1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain    PP6SJ,
yPP6SJ   Santander, b.Ruesga, Spain    PP6SJ,
yBDAWP   Calzada, b.Unknown    BDAWP,
yZQ6P9   Garcia, b.Spain    ZQ6P9,

« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 12:38:48 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 07:40:28 AM »

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 07:43:54 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 08:58:34 AM »

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.
This does look to be fairly young.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2010, 07:44:56 PM »

I see another one who looks like he belongs: Davila, Ysearch 3SZYY.

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 08:46:46 PM »

I just about fell of my chair when I saw the first 29 markers as I compared them to mine. Not close afterwards but...

http://tinyurl.com/g47vv

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 11:33:32 AM »

I just about fell of my chair when I saw the first 29 markers as I compared them to mine. Not close afterwards but...
http://tinyurl.com/g47vv
WAMH is still WAMH.  We are all closely related (in context of Homo Sapiens Sapiens Y DNA) to some Western Atlantic man who had a haplotype similar to WAMH.  Ironically, that man perhaps would be better labeled Western Black Sea man or Western Caspian Sea man or Western Iranian man.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 11:46:07 AM »

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.
This does look to be fairly young.

How young do you think? 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2010, 12:07:15 PM »

A young Iberian cluster that is spread widely but thinly across Iberia may be interesting.  It would take some explaining if it is historic period (say early Medieval perhaps) because in the historic period Iberia was regionally divided rather than united and it would be hard to pinpoint common denominator that could have spread L21.  This is especially so when you consider it is scattered between Basques, Catalans, Portuguese etc.  So, it must either pre-date or post-date the emergence of these separate identities.  It it turns out most fall into a young cluster and this leaves little older plain L21 then that would suggest an outside intrusion from somewhere where L21 is older.  So, once the cluster is defined, the remainder of Iberian ancestry who are L21* but who do not fall into it will be of as much interest as those who do.  A cluster needs pre-cluster ancestors whether or not they are local, in the same way as M222 must have ancestors among the non-M222 L21* populations either locally or elsewhere.    
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 12:13:00 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mark Jost
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2010, 01:06:10 PM »

WAMH is still WAMH.  We are all closely related (in context of Homo Sapiens Sapiens Y DNA) to some Western Atlantic man who had a haplotype similar to WAMH.  Ironically, that man perhaps would be better labeled Western Black Sea man or Western Caspian Sea man or Western Iranian man.

More Haplogoups needed.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2010, 02:15:57 PM »

Sampedro and Santander are the same person; Sampedro is just the ancestral surname.

Garcia needs to update his Ysearch entry (where he has only 12 markers), but he is actually tested to 37 markers (which can be seen in the "L21 Pending, Test in Progress" category of the project web site). He has all those off-modal values.

It would be nice if we had 67-marker haplotypes for these folks, but some of them have 37 markers at least.

I'm wondering how many more are out there and what their ultimate TMRCA might be. I'm thinking it's relatively recent, not genealogical but perhaps dating to the historical period at least.
This does look to be fairly young.
How young do you think? 
If you really want it here it is, but I feel a bit like Tim J.  At the end of the day I'm not sure all of the gyrations have helped that much.  This is using his spreadsheet.

Ysearch BDAWP Calzada only had 25 markers so I dropped him from the analysis.

TMRCA estimates for
82247   Juan García, b.c.1880, Spain (Cortez-Valdez) ZQ6P9,
58857   Juan de Archuleta, b.1540 Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain BXPKT,
167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain) 7K7QZ,
46334   Pedro Sampedro, b.1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain PP6SJ,
?????   Davila, b.c.1880, Zacatecas, Mexico 3SZYY,

are as follows:

503 ybp  37 markers / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen

527 ybp 37 markers (less 464) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen

607 ybp  37 markers (less CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen / after removing CDY & 464

677 ybp 37 markers (less 464 & CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen

465 ybp  37 markers (less 385, 459, 464, YCAII & CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen

1224 ybp  37 markers / Heald method / Chandler rates

1396 ybp  37 markers (less 464 & CDY) / Heald method / Chandler rates

1032 ybp  37 markers (less 385, 459, 464, YCAII & CDY) / Heald method / Chandler rates

I'm not the one to explain the numbers but I think Vince V will say you should allow 30% up or down as a potential range.

If you want a (claimed to be) precise TRMCA, I'll try to get that too straight from the horse's mouth, but some will disagree with the method used.

What's my opinion?  If I give some credibility to the MDKA's listed and some history I'm going with an MDKA of 900 ybp, give or take 300 years... but more likely to give than reduce.  This is just a guesstimate.  If you want speculation.. I'd wonder if these were people that fled or otherwise found refuge and then expanded with the Reconquista or whatever you want to call it.

I wish I could look at all six ht's with 67 markers.  I'd feel better if I could see GD's over 67 markers.

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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2010, 04:20:25 PM »

I think - and I think Mike would agree - we also need many more members of this cluster who are kind of on the far reaches of it to get a truly fair estimate of its age.

Of course, our Portuguese guys aren't in this cluster, nor are all of our Spanish guys.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2010, 05:58:47 PM »

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12
439=11
459a=10
447=24
449=31-32
464a=14
456=15
607=16
438=11


Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.
Archuleta BXPKT
Calzada BDAWP
Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)
Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)


I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).


I agree.   This looks like a clade.  Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it.  Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

yBXPKT   Archuleta, b.Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain    BXPKT,
f167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain)   7K7QZ,
f46334   Pedro Sampedro, 1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain    PP6SJ,
yPP6SJ   Santander, b.Ruesga, Spain    PP6SJ,
yBDAWP   Calzada, b.Unknown    BDAWP,
yZQ6P9   Garcia, b.Spain    ZQ6P9,



That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure.  Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2010, 06:09:50 PM »

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12
439=11
459a=10
447=24
449=31-32
464a=14
456=15
607=16
438=11


Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.
Archuleta BXPKT
Calzada BDAWP
Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)
Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)


I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).


I agree.   This looks like a clade.  Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it.  Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

yBXPKT   Archuleta, b.Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain    BXPKT,
f167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain)   7K7QZ,
f46334   Pedro Sampedro, 1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain    PP6SJ,
yPP6SJ   Santander, b.Ruesga, Spain    PP6SJ,
yBDAWP   Calzada, b.Unknown    BDAWP,
yZQ6P9   Garcia, b.Spain    ZQ6P9,



That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure.  Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?


According to the World Names Profiler, the surname Romero is most common in Extremadura, Andalucia, Castilla-La Mancha, and Madrid.

It has Calzada as most common in Castilla Y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco.

Garcia is kind of like Smith and Jones, I guess. It is widespread throughout Spain but least common in Navarra and Catalonia.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 06:10:54 PM »

This does look to be fairly young.
How young do you think?  
....

503 ybp  37 markers / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen
527 ybp 37 markers (less 464) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen
607 ybp  37 markers (less CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen / after removing CDY & 464
677 ybp 37 markers (less 464 & CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen
465 ybp  37 markers (less 385, 459, 464, YCAII & CDY) / Nordtvedt method / Chandler rates / 30y/gen
1224 ybp  37 markers / Heald method / Chandler rates
1396 ybp  37 markers (less 464 & CDY) / Heald method / Chandler rates
1032 ybp  37 markers (less 385, 459, 464, YCAII & CDY) / Heald method / Chandler rates
....
If you want a (claimed to be) precise TRMCA, I'll try to get that too straight from the horse's mouth, but some will disagree with the method used.
....

A little less stringent confidence interval than I thought he'd give, but here is another calculation.
Quote from: Anatole Klyosov
Dear Mike,
 
Those 6 haplotype is a rather recent family, their common ancestor lived 925+/-310 years back, that is around the 11th century AD. Its base haplotype differs by 10 mutations in the first 37 markers, that is by 3100 years from the L21 base haplotype, which places the common ancestor of L21 and those 6 haplotypes at 3100+925 = 4025 years before present. This is the L21 itself.
 
In other words, those 6 haplotypes descended from L21.
 
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:11:59 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 06:41:51 PM »

That makes sense to me. When I spotted that cluster, I thought it probably arose before the advent of surnames but not too long before. That wasn't based on math; it was based on the sheer number of different surnames that share it and Spanish origin, and there may be more to come.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:42:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 07:08:52 PM »

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think there could be a Spanish L21+ haplotype cluster with the following off-modal (for R1b1b2) values:

385a=12
439=11
459a=10
447=24
449=31-32
464a=14
456=15
607=16
438=11


Run the following in Ysearch's "Research Tools" along with the R1b1b2 modal, C7BED. Compare them and see what you think.
Archuleta BXPKT
Calzada BDAWP
Garcia ZQ6P9 (this one has all the off-modal values named above but needs to enter his additional markers in Ysearch)
Romero 7K7QZ (tested L21+)

Sampedro pp6sj (tested L21+)


I haven't tried looking for any more men with those values or close to those values. I'm pretty sure the near matches of Romero - Lopez, Manchego and Valencia - who have not yet responded to my emails would fit in the cluster, as well (if it is a cluster).


I agree.   This looks like a clade.  Archuleta and Romero look like they are on one sub-branch of it.  Sampedro and Santander on another. Calzada and Garcia would be the asterisk guys of the clade but this is where 67 markers on everyone would help a lot.

yBXPKT   Archuleta, b.Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain    BXPKT,
f167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain)   7K7QZ,
f46334   Pedro Sampedro, 1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain    PP6SJ,
yPP6SJ   Santander, b.Ruesga, Spain    PP6SJ,
yBDAWP   Calzada, b.Unknown    BDAWP,
yZQ6P9   Garcia, b.Spain    ZQ6P9,



That list contains a Basque, a Cantabrian and the name Santander is also the main town in Cantabria. That is 50% in the the two most north-easterly parts of Spain and none located anywhere else for sure.  Do the other surnames link to any particular areas of Spain?


According to the World Names Profiler, the surname Romero is most common in Extremadura, Andalucia, Castilla-La Mancha, and Madrid.

It has Calzada as most common in Castilla Y Leon, Cantabria, and Pais Vasco.

Garcia is kind of like Smith and Jones, I guess. It is widespread throughout Spain but least common in Navarra and Catalonia.

Sounds like a good chance that Calzada may be from the same area as the three from the Basque area and Cantabria.  So, that would be 4 out of the 6 with only one looking fairly unlikely to be from the NE (Romero).  I know its premature but I find that a little odd if its just chance.  It also seems to echo a bit of a bias towards the eastern border area in the overall L21 distribution in Iberia.
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2010, 12:07:50 AM »



Sounds like a good chance that Calzada may be from the same area as the three from the Basque area and Cantabria.  So, that would be 4 out of the 6 with only one looking fairly unlikely to be from the NE (Romero).  I know its premature but I find that a little odd if its just chance.  It also seems to echo a bit of a bias towards the eastern border area in the overall L21 distribution in Iberia.

Time will tell, of course, but not all of our Iberian guys belong to this particular cluster, and we don't know yet how extensive the outliers of this cluster are. There may be some men out there who share most but not all of its characteristic marker values. They could push the TMRCA back a bit, if it turns out that they, too, are L21+.

Take Robles, Ysearch G9CRT, for example. He is on the fringe of the group. If he is L21+, that might push the TMRCA of the cluster back a bit. That surname is most common in Andalucia, Castilla Y Leon, Madrid, and Murcia. Of course, Robles might be L21-; we don't know.

http://tinyurl.com/2g7bjej (Just enter the captcha codes at the bottom and click on "Show comparative y-dna results".)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 12:17:23 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2010, 01:48:57 AM »

Could they be of Frankish origin?.. a time before surnames?

Charlemagne
Wars with the Moors::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Charles_and_his_children

In Hispania the struggle against the Moors continued unabated throughout the latter half of his reign. His son Louis was in charge of the Spanish border.

In 785, his men captured Gerona permanently and extended Frankish control into the Catalan littoral for the duration of Charlemagne's reign (and much longer, it remained nominally Frankish until the Treaty of Corbeil in 1258).

The Muslim chiefs in the northeast of Islamic Spain were constantly revolting against Córdoban authority and they often turned to the Franks for help. The Frankish border was slowly extended until 795, when Gerona, Cardona, Ausona, and Urgel were united into the new Spanish March, within the old duchy of Septimania.

In 797 Barcelona, the greatest city of the region, fell to the Franks when Zeid, its governor, rebelled against Córdoba and, failing, handed it to them. The Umayyad authority recaptured it in 799. However, Louis of Aquitaine marched the entire army of his kingdom over the Pyrenees and besieged it for two years, wintering there from 800 to 801, when it capitulated. The Franks continued to press forwards against the emir. They took Tarragona in 809 and Tortosa in 811. The last conquest brought them to the mouth of the Ebro and gave them raiding access to Valencia, prompting the Emir al-Hakam I to recognise their conquests in 812.

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2010, 07:28:27 AM »

I don't know, but I don't really see L21 closely connected with the old homelands of the Franks, not in a big way, at least.

The Franks were a confederacy of Germanic tribes from the lower Rhine mainly. There is L21 there, but not so much that I think one can conclude that the Franks had a lot of it. Could the Franks have spread some L21? Sure, but I just don't think there is a close connection between the early medieval Franks and L21. A better case could be made for a connection between the Franks and U106, IMO.
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2010, 11:56:21 AM »

If you go to the New Mexico DNA Project and scroll down to 785-789, you will see five members of this cluster lined up together, including Lopez, Manchego and Valencia:

New Mexico DNA Project

Of course, those order numbers may change, so here are the names and kit numbers to look for:

Valencia kit 73233
Lopez  kit 152157
Archuleta  kit 58857
Romero  kit 167768
Manchego kit  157776


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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2010, 01:32:02 PM »

I ran a search for this cluster in SMGF using 385a,b=12,14; 439=11; 447=24; 449=31; 456=15 and 459a,b=10,10; with 454=11 and 455=11. Here's who I found:

Ortiz (Mexico)

Arce Marquez (Peru)

? Name Protected (Mexico)

? Name Protected (Mexico)

If I understand Spanish naming processes correctly, I think the y-dna line surname for Arce Marquez is Arce, but I could be mistaken on that.

Anyway, I think this cluster might be fairly widespread among men of Spanish descent.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 01:32:24 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 03:33:19 PM »

Could they be of Frankish origin?.. a time before surnames?

Charlemagne
Wars with the Moors::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Charles_and_his_children




I visited the tomb of Chalemange in Aachen Cathedral today. Most of his "giant" bones are preserved in a golden casket in the cathedral and his skull right arm and thighbone are on display in golden containers in the nearby Treasury.
It would be interesting if permission was given to extract DNA especially as he has a well documented genealogy including most of the European royal families. Unfortunately it appears many of the direct male lines have not survieved.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/families_descending_from_charlemagne_clovis.shtml
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2010, 11:53:02 PM »

I ran a search for this cluster in SMGF using 385a,b=12,14; 439=11; 447=24; 449=31; 456=15 and 459a,b=10,10; with 454=11 and 455=11. Here's who I found:

Ortiz (Mexico)

Arce Marquez (Peru)

? Name Protected (Mexico)

? Name Protected (Mexico)

If I understand Spanish naming processes correctly, I think the y-dna line surname for Arce Marquez is Arce, but I could be mistaken on that.

Anyway, I think this cluster might be fairly widespread among men of Spanish descent.

I'm counting nine at this point.  Are these the right guys?

f46334   Pedro Sampedro, b.1800, Matienzo, Cantabria, Spain    PP6SJ,
f73233   Valencia, New Mexico, USA,
f167768   Juan de Mata Romero, b.c.1850, Pojoaque, New Mexico, USA (Spain)   7K7QZ,
f157776   Manchego, New Mexico, USA    ,
f152157   Gregorio Lopez, Santa Cruz, Rio Arrida, New Mexico, USA   ME66Q,
f82247   Juan García, b.c.1880, Spain (Cortez-Valdez)   ZQ6P9,
y3SZYY   Davila, b.c.1880, Zacatecas, Mexico   ,
f58857   Juan de Archuleta, b.1540 Eibar, Guipuzcoa, Spain   BXPKT,
yBDAWP   Calzada, b.Unknown    BDAWP,
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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