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OConnor
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« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 09:53:06 AM »

I have found some reference to Celtic People in Iceland and Greenland, though I do not have the time right now to read it over.

I'll post a link here, in case you want to read it.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/medieval.www/sagaconf/ulfmoller.pdf
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2011, 08:09:08 PM »

We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.

Three of the Norwegians you recruited got their L238 results today, and all three were positive. L238 results were also posted for someone of French ancestry, who was negative.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 08:09:24 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2011, 07:06:08 AM »

We've got yet another Norwegian testing for L238 now: Hatvik, kit 148471, Ysearch 5T6QZ. He was one I had written to myself, although he does also belong to the Norway Project.

That gives us 7 Scandinavians awaiting L238 results. It would be neat if all 7 were L238+.

Three of the Norwegians you recruited got their L238 results today, and all three were positive. L238 results were also posted for someone of French ancestry, who was negative.

Yeah, I saw that this morning: Hatvik, Andresen, and Bentsen are all positive. The rest are still waiting.

Unfortunately, I am away from home right now and must share one of just two hotel computers.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 07:07:04 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2011, 07:35:37 PM »

Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.


If he turns out negative, I'll eat my hat.

You'll have to choose something other than hat for dinner this evening (unless that is what you want): Lundberg is officially L238+.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 07:36:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2011, 04:38:21 PM »

Okay, we finally have another likely L238 candidate testing for it: Lundberg, kit 98393, with ancestry in Sweden (Ysearch Y4PWJ).

Hopefully, he'll get a positive result.


If he turns out negative, I'll eat my hat.

You'll have to choose something other than hat for dinner this evening (unless that is what you want): Lundberg is officially L238+.

I'll have to say I didn't got in a lot of salt in preparation for eating my hat.
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2011, 02:21:35 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 02:25:27 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2011, 05:00:26 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.
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rms2
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2011, 08:06:44 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.
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rms2
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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2011, 08:55:40 PM »

Robert,

These R-L238 guys should be grateful to you for pushing and making this subclade happen. If you hadn't done it, chances are no one would know about it.

I wish one of them would start an R-L238 Project.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2011, 09:15:25 PM »

Robert,

These R-L238 guys should be grateful to you for pushing and making this subclade happen. If you hadn't done it, chances are no one would know about it.

I wish one of them would start an R-L238 Project.

I expect you are right that if I hadn't spotted the L238+ result in the 23andme project results for someone who was a very good match to Nordtvedt's Norse cluster (which I was researching at the time), it would still be unknown. Even then it took me a lot of effort and some time to get someone interested. FTDNA essentially blew me off, but Jim Wilson of EA took me seriously and began offering testing for it.  It took FTDNA at least a year after that to get around to offering it.

It just demonstrates that it is the amateur hobbiests that are the spearhead of new discoveries in this field. A few guys at the DNA forums pouring over the 1000 Genomes Project results have discovered more new R1b SNPs in the last few months than all the professional testing companies put together over the last several years.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2011, 09:19:50 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.
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rms2
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2011, 01:23:02 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.

I didn't find any in the Danish Demes Project. I did find one possible in the Denmark Project, however: kit N70862. No surname is listed, but the place of origin is listed as the Faroe Islands. It's only a 12-marker haplotype, but it might be worth a shot.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2011, 02:20:32 PM »

The last three Norwegians awaiting results - Tertnes, Michaelsen, and Pedersen -  all came up L238+ today.

We batted a thousand on our Scandinavian L238 testing.

Not bad!

It seems to me L238 is the wannabe Viking's dream clade. It seems to be BIG in Scandinavia with just a smattering of British Isles guys.

Excellent news, but I'm not at all surprised.

I wish we could get the guys I found in the Scandinavia Project tested, but I still haven't heard from the project admin yet.

 Have you looked at any of the Danish projects yet? According to Nordtvedt, L238 is found there as well. AFAIK, not a single person of Danish ancestry has even tested for it yet.

Incidentally I have gone through some of the L238 results and have found two that are GDs of 16 and 17 respectively from one of the others. Clearly this is not a young subclade.

I didn't find any in the Danish Demes Project. I did find one possible in the Denmark Project, however: kit N70862. No surname is listed, but the place of origin is listed as the Faroe Islands. It's only a 12-marker haplotype, but it might be worth a shot.

I think these last test results demonstrate that anyone from Scandinavia with 12 markers who has 385a/b=11,13 and 439=11 is probably going to be L238+.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 02:21:37 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2011, 06:51:43 PM »

I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2011, 08:10:58 PM »

I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.

I did notice that, though I couldn't tell which Scandinavian country he came from. I also saw the order for L238 went through. I assume he matches the Norse modal.

Rich, are you encouraging these people to post their markers on Ysearch? It would be helpful in determining variance, etc. I have calculated that amongst those whose 67 markers are posted on Ysearch, one is a GD of 17 at 67, which suggests it isn't young. Does anyone know what GDs exist within M222 for comparison?
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rms2
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« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2011, 08:30:36 PM »

I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.

I did notice that, though I couldn't tell which Scandinavian country he came from. I also saw the order for L238 went through. I assume he matches the Norse modal.

Rich, are you encouraging these people to post their markers on Ysearch? It would be helpful in determining variance, etc. I have calculated that amongst those whose 67 markers are posted on Ysearch, one is a GD of 17 at 67, which suggests it isn't young. Does anyone know what GDs exist within M222 for comparison?

Most of them don't speak much English, so Anne Berge has been doing most of the communicating. I'll ask her to encourage them to create Ysearch entries.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2011, 08:32:46 AM »

I think we just recruited another Swede, ancestral surname Germundsson, kit 170725 (no Ysearch yet). You may have seen him already. I'm just waiting for his email permission to order the test. I gave Anne Berge of the Norway Project the missing kit numbers. She has been working on recruiting the ones we've missed thus far.
Great work! It's good to see L238  finally building up. Almost enough to start thinking about how old it is usually those confounded genetic molecular clocks.

P.S. Last night I turned on the TV and a documentary on the "missing link" was on where scientists were trying to determine where and when modern man's lineage first separate from modern apes' lineages. They were claiming (I think is a quote) the genetic "molecular clock is amazingly consistent" which allows us to "estimate time" very effectively.    They were talking about 6M ybp for the separate of man's lineage give or take a 1M. That's about a 17% swing either way which is large, but still instructive.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 08:39:20 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2011, 04:49:54 PM »


Great work! It's good to see L238  finally building up. Almost enough to start thinking about how old it is usually those confounded genetic molecular clocks.

P.S. Last night I turned on the TV and a documentary on the "missing link" was on where scientists were trying to determine where and when modern man's lineage first separate from modern apes' lineages. They were claiming (I think is a quote) the genetic "molecular clock is amazingly consistent" which allows us to "estimate time" very effectively.    They were talking about 6M ybp for the separate of man's lineage give or take a 1M. That's about a 17% swing either way which is large, but still instructive.

I'm old enough to remember the 5-6M ybp estimate for human-chimpanzee separation from the early 1970s when I took a physical anthropology course from Vincent Sarich at UC Berkeley. He was quite controversial back then as one of the first to promote using DNA and molecular clocks. Most everybody thought he was way out in left field on his time estimates, but eventually proven more or less correct. Here is an excerpt from his wikipedia entry:

"In 1967, Sarich and Wilson published a seminal paper in Science that estimated the divergence time of humans and apes as four to five million years ago, at a time when standard interpretations of the fossil record gave this divergence as at least 10 to as much as 30 million years. Subsequent fossil discoveries, notably Lucy, and reinterpretation of older fossil materials, notably Ramapithecus, showed the younger estimates to be correct and validated the albumin method. Application of the molecular clock principle revolutionized the study of molecular evolution."
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« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2011, 05:42:26 PM »

.... "In 1967, Sarich and Wilson published a seminal paper in Science that estimated the divergence time of humans and apes as four to five million years ago, at a time when standard interpretations of the fossil record gave this divergence as at least 10 to as much as 30 million years. Subsequent fossil discoveries, notably Lucy, and reinterpretation of older fossil materials, notably Ramapithecus, showed the younger estimates to be correct and validated the albumin method. Application of the molecular clock principle revolutionized the study of molecular evolution."
Busby better do counter-argument study on that to stop such thinking. LOL.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 05:42:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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OConnor
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2011, 06:07:35 AM »

Here is a recent short video about the Neanderthal/Man connection by Svante Pääbo

In the video he says 5 Million years to a common ancestor with chimps.

http://www.exchangemagazine.com/morningpost/2011/week35/Wednesday/083101.htm
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 06:08:34 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 08:11:26 PM »

Bagge (ancestral surname Germundsson) of Sweden, kit 170725, got his L238+ result today, finally.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 08:13:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

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