New SNP for Scandinavian P312*

[GoldenHind]

I know that this forum is largely confined to people who are interested in L21, but here is some news which some may find interesting.

I was informed yesterday by Dr. Jim Wilson of EA that they have confirmed the presence of a new SNP under P312 in a second member of Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster.

This was first found in Smith (Ysearch NXMWE) last year by 23andme and denominated as L238 (ChrY 19712831). Now EA has found it in a second member of the cluster, Eriksson of Sweden (Ysearch 29TRV). Eriksson and Smith are a GD of 9 at 67 markers. Both had previously tested P312* at FTDNA.

What is yet to be determined is whether the new SNP is limited to the Norse cluster, or consitutes a wider group.  More testing of P312* people will be necessary to dtermine how wide or narrow a group it represents.

EA is now offering testing for it under their designation of S182. FTDNA does not offer testing for it at present.

Nordtvedt identified the cluster by datamining the SMGF database, which includes many LDS of Scandinavian ancestry, far more than can be found at Ysearch. He said he believes the cluster represents an early entry into coasts of Norway and Denmark, and spread inland from there. He also said it can be found across Scandinavia, including Sweden.

It is possible of course that this may have been the same movement which brought L21 to Scandinavia. I will leave speculation about whether this was associated with the Beaker presence there to others.

[Mikewww]

... I was informed yesterday by Dr. Jim Wilson of EA that they have confirmed the presence of a new SNP under P312 in a second member of Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster.
...  L238 (ChrY 19712831). ..

Wow, great news.  We need P312* whittled away into all of its proper subclades.

[Jean M]

Excellent news!

I will leave speculation about whether this was associated with the Beaker presence there to others.

 "an early entry into coasts of Norway and Denmark" would fit Bell Beaker as you know.

[Jdean]

Fingers tightly crossed here.

Goldenhind, are you considering testing for this or are you going to wait and see how it pans out?

[rms2]

Great news!

[vtilroe]

goldenhind,

Thanks for being persistent, and insistent!  Hopefully this will pay off!

[NealtheRed]

goldenhind,

Thanks for being persistent, and insistent!  Hopefully this will pay off!

I agree; persistence does pay off! Thanks for the update, GoldenHind.

[GoldenHind]

Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.

[rms2]

Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.

Hopefully this will stir FTDNA to action, and they will start testing for it, too. That is probably the only way we'll get really extensive sampling.

[GoldenHind]

I suspect you're right. FTDNA missed the boat on this, as I contacted them first.

Incidentally both persons found to be positive for this new SNP are members of the P312 and subclades project. I don't know if you want to start a new subsection, or if you want to wait a while and see who else might test positive.

[rms2]

I suspect you're right. FTDNA missed the boat on this, as I contacted them first.

Incidentally both persons found to be positive for this new SNP are members of the P312 and subclades project. I don't know if you want to start a new subsection, or if you want to wait a while and see who else might test positive.

I think I will wait for a couple more positives.

[alan trowel hands.]

Its one of my main disappointments about the WTY project that S116* has not been broken into 2 or 3 major divisions that occurred not too long after S116 i.e. parallel SNPs to L21.  I think its going to be hard to understand L21 and indeed the R1b1b2 story without getting a better handle on S116*.  Not even the N-S has an SNP to date.  S116* must be hiding clades that are parallel to L21 and U152.  It would be great if the new SNP really splits the group and is not just some local historic period one.

[alan trowel hands.]

Thanks. I came close to giving up several times when I just couldn't find anyone interested in looking into this. Fortunately I finally found a sympathetic ear in Dr. Wilson at EA, and he was willing to invest the time and expense to order the primers and set up testing to discover if the possibility might pan out. They are now launching a promotion for testing for the new SNP.

As Dr. Wilson pointed out, there is no way of knowing whether S182/L238 will be limited to just members of the cluster, or will define a much larger group. It might be like the U'Neill cluster's relation to L21. The only way to answer the question is for people who are P312* but outside the cluster to test for it.  So I have ordered it, even though I am in no way a good match to the cluster. The only two off modals for it that I match are 441 (an SMGF marker) and 446. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see what happens. I do hope other P312* will order it as well, especially if they already have a sample at EA. For those who do, the cost is only $39.

I would imagine try to get at least one from each know S116* cluster i.e. North-South as the cheapest way of getting some idea.  Not sure how many strong STR clusters have been identified within S116*.

[Mikewww]

Its one of my main disappointments about the WTY project that S116* has not been broken into 2 or 3 major divisions that occurred not too long after S116 i.e. parallel SNPs to L21.  I think its going to be hard to understand L21 and indeed the R1b1b2 story without getting a better handle on S116*.  Not even the N-S has an SNP to date.  S116* must be hiding clades that are parallel to L21 and U152.  It would be great if the new SNP really splits the group and is not just some local historic period one.

I agree with you, but now that I understand who WTY works I can see how important it is for P312*/S116* folks to get as many people tested to 67 markers as possible.   Then they can better identify more clusters beyond the N-S cluster.   Each cluster should then have a representative in the WTY project........  still the WTY runs only get a small portion of the Y chromosome.  There is much to be discovered.

[GoldenHind]

Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.

[OConnor]

another L21 Brother ? ;)

where's the Cigars?

[rms2]

Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.

Another new L238+ result has come in: another Swede, Swanson (ancestral surname Quillander) from Vimmerby in southern Sweden.

Time to create a new subcategory, I guess.

[rms2]

Some months ago FTDNA finally started testing for L238, and there were a substantial numbers of orders for it. A few results- all negaitive- came in right away, but then FTDNA apparently turned their attention to other things. However today the first two positive results came in. They are:

Östensson (Sweden) Y9VDV
Auke (Norway) X5VJU

The two previously known positive results from 23andme and EA are:

Larsson (Sweden) 29TRV
Smith (England) NMXWE

Note: These are the ancestral names and Ysearch IDs.

These individuals are a sufficient GD apart to establish this is not a private SNP.
I believe this distinctly Scandinavian subclade of P312/S116 has finally been established beyond doubt, and I hope it will be added to the R1b tree soon.

There are still a fairly large number of orders to be processed, but at this point it looks as if the subclade will pretty much be limited to those who are fairly close matches to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] cluster, which, according to Ken, are concentrated in Norway but found throughout Scandinavia.

Robert,

I created a new subcategory for R-L238 and have the Scandinavians safetly nestled therein. But I can't find the lone Englishman, Smith, in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

I tried running that Ysearch number, but all I got was an "Invalid Number" reply.

Can you direct me to him?

The two other Smiths in the R-P312* England category aren't showing an L238+ result.

Congrats on spotting this new subclade. Looks like an actual Scandinavian subclade of P312.

[rms2]

Oops! I see now that you mentioned that Smith and Larsson were 23andMe and EA guys.

I don't have Larsson either.

[rms2]

Okay, I found Larsson. Lol.

He's in the R-L238 category now.

I just need Smith, who should be glad to know he's probably the descendant of a viking.

:-o

[rms2]

All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

[GoldenHind]

All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

[NealtheRed]

All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Thank you for giving this transparency, GoldenHind! This is great news for P312*- Norse fellows.

We appreciate it!

[rms2]

All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Do you know who those guys are? I could email them and ask them to order the test.

What are the defining values of Ken's R1b-Norse cluster?

[GoldenHind]

All right, I found Smith, too. He was already in the R-P312 and Subclades Project.

So now I have all of the known R-L238 guys safely tucked away in the R-L238 category. Thus far, four Scandinavians and one Englishman.

Thanks, Robert.

Rich, sorry but I had a typo in Smith's Y search number. It's NXMWE. Sometimes I think I have late onset dyslexia, as I find myself doing this sort of thing more and more these days. Part of the confusion is no doubt due to the fact that the current  surnames of the four Scandinavians are different from the ancestral ones. This comes from the former practice there where surnames changed with every generation.

So far everyone who has tested positive is a very close match to Nordtvedt's R1b-Nor[se] modal, and those who have tested negative are not. I was able to predict that  Östensson, Auke and Quillander would get positive results by comparing their haplotypes to Nordtvedt's cluster modal. According to Ken, this cluster is most common in Norway, but is found in Sweden and Denmark as well. As far as I can tell, only one Norwegian has ordered it so far, and he was positive. There are other people in the P312 subclades project who would almost certainly test positive, if they would just order the test.

Do you know who those guys are? I could email them and ask them to order the test.

What are the defining values of Ken's R1b-Norse cluster?

Defining off modal STR markers for the Norse modal according to Nordtvedt:

DYS385a/b = 11,13
DYS 439 = 11
DYS 441 = 14
DYS 446 = 15

In my research, I have noticed that cluster members also have DYS 534 greater than the modal 15 (ie 16 or 17). Of course, not everyone will match all of these. Quillander for instance is modal 11,14 at 385a/b, instead of the off-modal 11,13. 441 is ordinarily only tested by SMGF, though it is available by special order at FTDNA, but most FTDNA customers haven't tested for it.

I will send you a list of project members who I'm reasonably certain will be positive.