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OConnor
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2010, 07:54:14 PM »


2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 07:55:23 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2010, 03:04:04 AM »


2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25

No, that comes from FTDNA. He has 447=19. A bit unusual.

Maybe it will help identify a Norwegian R-L21 cluster.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2010, 04:14:09 AM »

Maybe multistep mutation or my "mutation for the tangent and not around the modal". Probably R-L21+ is older than many think: see the DYS19=10 of Argiedude (and Callaway) and other oddities.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2010, 01:43:08 PM »


2XH5R Aarsbog Gjemnes, M�re og Romsdal, Norway  
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 09 09 11 11 19 15 19 28 15 15 16 16

Maybe he is R-L159.2+ like me. then we will know it was an Irish Monk.

My first 25:
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 09 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

I wonder if he made a mistake on 447=19  ??
 It seems most have a higher number like 25

No, that comes from FTDNA. He has 447=19. A bit unusual.

Maybe it will help identify a Norwegian R-L21 cluster.
Maybe the Vikings only took those with 447=19 as slaves. A highly discriminating people, the Vikings.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 01:45:25 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »

Two Scandinavians went L21+ this evening: 1) Jensen, Ysearch 6A5FS, whose ancestor came from Maribo in Denmark; and 2) Aarsbog (ancestral surname Søvik), Ysearch 2XH5R, whose ancestor came from Gjemnes, Norway.

That is great another Dane came back L21+! I see that his MDKA is from one of the Danish islands in the Baltic!

And the Norwegian is great; I think we have come to expect some L21+ out of Norway!
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OConnor
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« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2010, 07:55:51 PM »

ahh!...but out of Norway?..or into Norway? ;)

I would say the era of L21 into scandinavia would be interesting.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 07:57:43 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


NealtheRed
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« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2010, 09:27:44 PM »

ahh!...but out of Norway?..or into Norway? ;)

I would say the era of L21 into scandinavia would be interesting.


At least we are starting to get more of a turnout in Denmark, and none of these guys have surnames beginning with Mac.

Rich pointed out that these two, recent fellows don't have any close British or Irish matches. They probably have an older signature.
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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2010, 04:31:36 PM »

There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 04:32:23 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2010, 04:39:30 PM »

There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.


I should have mentioned that, although Ekeli/Knudsen has 37 markers, his closest match is 23/25 with a Hungarian. He has no close matches at 37 markers.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2010, 07:23:22 PM »

Ekeli has a very interesting haplotype, on the first 12 markers alone.

This has been a big week for Scandinavian L21, for sure.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2010, 09:28:18 PM »

There's yet another new Norwegian R-L21: Ekeli, ancestral surname Knudsen, kit N85026; no Ysearch yet. His ancestor came from Kragerø, on the coast, southwest of Oslo.

If you look at the Norway Project, you will see that R-L21 is clearly the leading R1b1b2 subclade in Norway.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway/default.aspx?section=yresults

And this is happening mostly of its own accord. I have only recruited a couple of Scandinavians. So, they're just testing independently and getting L21+ results. I'm not out there on a Scandinavian recruiting drive.


I should have mentioned that, although Ekeli/Knudsen has 37 markers, his closest match is 23/25 with a Hungarian. He has no close matches at 37 markers.
A wandering Hungarian monk?
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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2010, 06:48:49 PM »

I am beginning to think R-L21 really is  the biggest R1b1b2 subclade in Norway. Things could change, I suppose, but thus far it certainly seems to be popping up there frequently through independent, random, non-cherry-picked SNP testing.

That has got to mean more than the occasional Viking-Era British thrall.
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MHammers
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2010, 08:14:48 PM »

I am beginning to think R-L21 really is  the biggest R1b1b2 subclade in Norway. Things could change, I suppose, but thus far it certainly seems to be popping up there frequently through independent, random, non-cherry-picked SNP testing.

That has got to mean more than the occasional Viking-Era British thrall.

It's looking more and more like a Bronze age phenomenon as far as being initally populated by L21, imo.  The climate was supposedly better at that time.  By the Iron Age until the Viking period, the trend was people moving south and west away from Scandinavia.
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OConnor
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2010, 08:48:08 AM »

I suppose at some point some L21+ Guys may have travelled through this gateway.

Archeologists Find Gateway to the Viking Empire
For a century, archeologists have been dreaming of finding this gate between Denmark and Charlemagne's empire.

The researchers have discovered the only gate leading through the Danevirke, a five-meter (16 feet) wide portal. According to old writings, "horsemen and carts" used to stream through the gate, called "Wiglesdor." Next to it was a customs station and an inn that included a bordello.

The only gate through a giant, 30-kilometer (19-mile) wall which runs through the entire state of Schleswig-Holstein. The massive construction, called the Danevirke -- "work of the Danes" -- is considered the largest earthwork in northern Europe.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,714235,00.html

Danevirke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danevirke
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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bart otoole
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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 05:46:30 PM »

Here are two Finns for you

TSDMK
PP9BB

they are 65/67 on ySearch.
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rms2
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« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 08:19:54 PM »

Here are two Finns for you

TSDMK
PP9BB

they are 65/67 on ySearch.


They have both been in the project for some time.
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Norwich
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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2010, 04:12:43 AM »

I think there is too much L21 in Scandinavia to account for it with the Viking slave trade, but the problem is that there are a couple of Scandinavian guys with a lot of close Scottish matches, and they may actually descend from transplanted Scots.

And that is enough to convince some people (who want very badly to be convinced) that ALL Scandinavian L21+ is of British provenance.
What is very clear is that (based on your Google Maps) that L21 in Scandinavia is almost exclusively distributed along the coastal margins.  Yes, there are guys with names like Dondass who are obviously recent Scottish transplants, but it is likely that part of what we are seeing is reflected in the percentages of Irish Y in Iceland (about 20% if we are to believe Hegeson et al.) and this mostly Likely from those who accompanied the Norse when they retreated from Dublin or other coastal Irish settlements.  The Icelandic historical records pretty well support these figures.  If Ireland was the main source of L21 in Scandinavia then one might expect a smattering of M222.  I don't recall if this is the case.

What is quite dramatic is a compaison of U152 and L21 in Scandinavia.  Just looking at Norway, there is not yet to be found a single individual with this haplogroup outside the southeastern or Vik area - basically Oslofjord from the headwaters in Lillehammer to the fanning outlets in both Norway and Sweden (Vestfold).  All subgroups (U152*, L2*, and L20) are represented here.  

This geographical fact needs explaining.  So few Scandinavians have been deep clade tested (look at at the output of the FTDNA Denmark Project) that it will be a while before much further is known.  The Myres study distribution pattern (north and southeast probably meaning Jutland and Fyn) is consistent with the hobbiest results.

Norwich.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 04:14:40 AM by Norwich » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2010, 06:17:35 AM »

Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2010, 10:44:51 AM »

Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.

I know that the Norse settled near the coast, whereas the Saami settled further inland. How much U152 is in Norway/Scandinavia?

That is interesting about the Irish leaving with the Norse (I am guessing after Clontarf). Is this a fairly good possibility?
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Norwich
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« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2010, 12:05:09 PM »

Did Myres et al do any sampling in Norway? I haven't looked at that study in a week or so, but I thought they left Norway out.

Most of the R1b1b2 in Norway, and the R1a, as well, as I understand it, are found along the coast. In fact, it's rather difficult to get too awfully far away from the coast in Norway, given its geography.

I'm not a big fan of that recent Myres et al report, which I think has some serious sampling problems, but they found very little U152 in their Scandinavian sample.

I know that the Norse settled near the coast, whereas the Saami settled further inland. How much U152 is in Norway/Scandinavia?

That is interesting about the Irish leaving with the Norse (I am guessing after Clontarf). Is this a fairly good possibility?
The Myres and genetic genealogist data are saying pretty much the same thing.  not a heck of a log of U152 in Scanadinavia (circa 3% total perhaps) but highly concentrated in very specific areas such that locally the percentage may riise to 10% or so.  A large triangle circumscribing the Vik from the head to the mouth of Oslofjord; and northern and eastern Jutland (including the island of Fyn).  There is one outlier from Stockholm, and another from the middke of Finalnd and that is it - so far.  This distribution could not be more different from what we see with L21.  These two S116 subclades have a very different history in Scandinavia - that much we can take to the bank at this point.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2010, 01:03:27 PM »

If U152 is scant in Scandinavia, how did it get there? My guess is L21 arrived much earlier.
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Norwich
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« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2010, 01:51:55 PM »

If U152 is scant in Scandinavia, how did it get there? My guess is L21 arrived much earlier.
Probably during the Celtic migrations circa 425.  The apparent reason for Gauls - Celts moving to Italy was the rich agricultural resources (figs, olives etc.) and for a Scandinavian push - amber.  It is only a short hop across what may or may not have been solidly Germanic areas to reach northern Jutland.  The Vik was the jewel in the crown of Denmark circa 800 AD.  It is not in the least clear as to when U152 (descendants of the amber traders?) spread to the north - but they ended up in the wealthiest area of Norway (at one time Denmark) and may have been in a position to control passage through the narrow straight separating Skagen Denmark from the Vik.

The L21 haplotypes look Scottish or Irish to me but others would need to confirm this.  Is there M222, South Irish, Irish Type III there.  If yes, then likely a recent arrival with the returning Vikings (those who chose not to settled in Iceland).  If the L21 is largely haplotypes that would be quite alien in the British Isles - then probably an early presence - or a blend of Viking era arrivals with "old stock" (which would confuse the picture dramatically).

The U152 haplotypes seem similar to those found in Southern Germany, but one could debate their arrival time endlessly.  What does make sense is the "pull factor" - which in this case would be amber which was highly desired in the Roman Empire.  Perhaps the origins are to be found in Northern Italy - even Venice.

When Jutland was depopulated circa 430 AD and again during the Viking era, doubtless much of the U152 ended up in England and Normandy.  It would be interesting to compare Norman haplotypes to those found in Denmark.  There does not appear to be a great deal of U152 in Normandy either - but it came from somewhere.  The Belgae, the Danes, or who knows.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2010, 02:16:10 PM »

I am confused why U152 is associated with Iron Age entry into Scandinavia, and L21 is not. The latter is much more represented in Scandinavia than the former, so it is harder for me to accept L21's presence there as the result of Viking Age movements.

The hotspot for U152 is Switzerland/Southern Germany, but its numbers decrease as one moves north. Is there any evidence for Celts in Scandinavia? I know they got their amber from the Baltic, but I thought Celtic tribes only reached as far as Southern Poland.

I coordinate the L159 Project (downstream of L21) so that it serves as a repository of data. There are a couple of Norwegians in the project, two of the four are native Norwegians. One is L159+, and his ancestry is from the Ofotenfjord area in the North, whereas the other Norwegian is from Oppland in the South. The former has no matches at 37 markers. I'm not saying that those British L159+ are of Norse origin, but maybe some clades are older than we think.

Then one has to acknowledge the British Isles bias in the sampling frame.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:18:09 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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Norwich
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« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2010, 02:54:57 PM »

I am confused why U152 is associated with Iron Age entry into Scandinavia, and L21 is not. The latter is much more represented in Scandinavia than the former, so it is harder for me to accept L21's presence there as the result of Viking Age movements.

The hotspot for U152 is Switzerland/Southern Germany, but its numbers decrease as one moves north. Is there any evidence for Celts in Scandinavia? I know they got their amber from the Baltic, but I thought Celtic tribes only reached as far as Southern Poland.

I coordinate the L159 Project (downstream of L21) so that it serves as a repository of data. There are a couple of Norwegians in the project, two of the four are native Norwegians. One is L159+, and his ancestry is from the Ofotenfjord area in the North, whereas the other Norwegian is from Oppland in the South. The former has no matches at 37 markers. I'm not saying that those British L159+ are of Norse origin, but maybe some clades are older than we think.

Then one has to acknowledge the British Isles bias in the sampling frame.


Re Celts in Scandinava.  Some of the best Celtic Iron Age artifacts archaeological artifiacts come from Jutland.  For example the Gundestrup Cauldron, the Braa Cauldron, the Djedjerg Wagons. 

The first language recorded from Scandinavia are words from the peoples who resided on the eastern margin of Jutland.  These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Has any South Irish or Irish Type III been found in Scandinavia?
 
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2010, 03:14:28 PM »

These words are Mare Morusa (Dead Sea - Baltic Sea) and Mare Congelium (spelling? but means frozen) from the sea between Sweden and Finland.  Celtic scholars have reported that these are indisputably Celtic words.  Pliny the Elder reported these facts, quoting a Greek historian who flourished circa 325 BC.  The region where these people lived is, oddly (or not), the only place where U152 is today found in Denmark.  The archaeological artifacts are also only from this said area.

Certainly Mare Morusa and Mare Congelium are Latin words. Probably Plyny the Elder translated these words in Latin, otherwise, if they are really the original words, we should think to Italics as the inhabitants of those regions. It is probably not believable, but R-U152 could have come from Italy, which retains the highest numbers and variance of this haplogroup.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 03:30:39 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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