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eochaidh
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« Reply #75 on: October 04, 2010, 11:27:29 PM »

..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.

I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.

There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental (unless Alan has changed his mind).  All L21 in Ireland comes from the Continent. All DNA of any type found in Ireland comes from the Continent.

I am a first generation Irish-American, but my DNA (Y, mtDNA, and Autosomal) is Continental. This case was closed a very long time ago.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (German... or maybe French.. or Dutch...  )
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:41:23 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2010, 09:32:51 AM »

..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.
I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.
There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental  (unless Alan has changed his mind).  ...
I don't know if that was Alan. That may have been Jean putting out what I think she called a speculation, which is fine (and I appreciate); or me just trying to get some attention on Myres' strange M222 5% frequency in in Germany.

If you are saying there is no one DNA type that is Irish, I agree.  If you are saying many subclades cross boundaries beyond Ireland, I agree with that too.

Of course, every Irish man or woman has DNA, though.  The challenge isn't to decide who's Irish and who's not.  People can decide for themselves.  To do that they'll have to define what's an Irishman and what's not.  Is a person who never spoke a Celtic language but lived on the "green" island before the Celtic language arrived Irish?  How about an English landowner (or Norman) who's family has been in Ireland for 400 years or 800 years? Is a farmer in Nebraska who's lineage used to live in Ireland for 700 years but probably never spoke Gaelic, Irish?

The challenge is to find what subclades one is associated with at a finer and finer level and then to see if there is a pattern for disbursement that could be a backward trail through time and geography.

You can call yourself whatever you want. Different historians and other writers may have put different labels on your lineages at different points in time as well. Take your pick.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 09:33:43 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2010, 07:17:45 PM »

..... I should note that we are talking about L21 xM222 in all of the above. I should also add that, according to Myres' Table S4, there were 1 or at the most 2 M222s in the entire Scandinavian sample of 249 men (in Malmö, Sweden).
This seems to imply that those who claim the Vikings took a bunch Irishmen/boys back to Scandinavia don't have much to stand on.  Therefore, L21* must have already been there.

I think it's rather odd that none of the people who are keen on this idea are willing to be drawn into a conversation regarding the apparent lack of Irish DNA in Scandinavia.

There is no such thing as Irish DNA. The last I heard M222 was Continental (unless Alan has changed his mind).  All L21 in Ireland comes from the Continent. All DNA of any type found in Ireland comes from the Continent.

I am a first generation Irish-American, but my DNA (Y, mtDNA, and Autosomal) is Continental. This case was closed a very long time ago.

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (German... or maybe French.. or Dutch...  )

Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated.  Its always speculation in this hobby.  It clearly expanded mostly in Ireland and therefore is a very high probability of an ancestor from NW Ireland in terms of genealogy.  However where the SNP first occurred is not the same thing as its main expansion.  It is also known in SW Scotland.  I believe too from Mike's (I think) posts in the past that the group with NW Irish type STRs but who are M222 negative are most represented in SW Scotland (if I recall correctly).  It was suggested that that group could be a pre-M222 group.  So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  Again an interesting hypothesis but uncertain.  On the other hand as Mike posted there is (unless it is an error) a surprising amount of M222 on parts of the continent in Myres study and its not clear what we should think of that. Finally there have been posted a number of variance calculations on this site for M222 since the Myres study and they pointed to England as having a very high variance, something that is usually thought of as an indicator of ancientness.  So there you have it-its either Ireland, Scotland, England or the continent! I cant see this getting resolved now. The reason I think this is that where an SNP first occurs, it will be definition initially be in one single person.  The chances of the first expansion and growth being on the same spot that the SNP occurred seems remote to me.  It seems more likely that an SNP will expand where a splinter group or individual moves on to virgin territory and fills it with descendants with the SNP.  The distance between the origin point and the expansion point could be anything from very little to half a continent.  Basically as far as I can understand variance is only likely to pick up the earliest significant expansion point not the origin point. I am very pessimistic that real origin points of SNPs can be detected now.   
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2010, 07:25:55 PM »

[quote author=alan trowel hands. link=topic=9446.msg120911#msg120911

Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated.  Its always speculation in this hobby.  It clearly expanded mostly in Ireland and therefore is a very high probability of an ancestor from NW Ireland in terms of genealogy.  However where the SNP first occurred is not the same thing as its main expansion.  It is also known in SW Scotland.  I believe too from Mike's (I think) posts in the past that the group with NW Irish type STRs but who are M222 negative are most represented in SW Scotland (if I recall correctly).  It was suggested that that group could be a pre-M222 group.  So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  Again an interesting hypothesis but uncertain.  On the other hand as Mike posted there is (unless it is an error) a surprising amount of M222 on parts of the continent in Myres study and its not clear what we should think of that. Finally there have been posted a number of variance calculations on this site for M222 since the Myres study and they pointed to England as having a very high variance, something that is usually thought of as an indicator of ancientness.  So there you have it-its either Ireland, Scotland, England or the continent! I cant see this getting resolved now. The reason I think this is that where an SNP first occurs, it will be definition initially be in one single person.  The chances of the first expansion and growth being on the same spot that the SNP occurred seems remote to me.  It seems more likely that an SNP will expand where a splinter group or individual moves on to virgin territory and fills it with descendants with the SNP.  The distance between the origin point and the expansion point could be anything from very little to half a continent.  Basically as far as I can understand variance is only likely to pick up the earliest significant expansion point not the origin point. I am very pessimistic that real origin points of SNPs can be detected now.   
[/quote]

I have been accused of "playing games" when trying to make exactly this point. Why some people are unable to understand the distiction is beyond me.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2010, 09:44:46 PM »

Like I said, there is no Irish DNA.
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Jean M
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« Reply #80 on: October 06, 2010, 08:21:47 AM »

Noone has ever nor do they now know where M222 originated. ...   So SW Scotland as a place with both M222 and the possibly ancestral pre-M222 could be the area where M222 first happened.  There is no certainty but its an interesting hypothesis.  SW Scotland was where a tribe called the Damnoni was located and Irish legend mentions a people called the Fir Domnain who may be the same people.  

That is an interesting idea, but the Fir Domnain are not the best fit on current information. The name occurs in Inber Domnann (Malahide Bay, Co. Dublin), and more frequently in north-west Mayo as Iorrais Domnann (Erris, Co. Mayo) and the nearby Mag Domnann and Dun Domnann. An early Irish poem describes one of their leaders as the over-king of Leinster.

My own speculation was that M222 could be a La Tene marker. That is what I currently say on a couple of pages of Distant Past: the main P of E and the Celtic Tribes page. That seems a better fit to the distribution pattern as so far known, and gives more time and opportunity for the present density to build up.

The low point for the Irish climate was 250 BC to 250 AD. La Tene material arrived at the start of that cycle, so M222 arriving then and sticking out the hard times and population fall, would be in a position to expand as times improved. I would guess that there was little incentive for people to move to Ireland during the worst of the wet cycle. So the Cruithne in various parts would probably have arrived 300 AD onwards - later than Ptolemy's map. So they are not shown on it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 08:22:48 AM by Jean M » Logged
Jean M
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« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2010, 08:38:39 AM »

Like I said, there is no Irish DNA.

If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few. According to Mike Whalen's cheat sheet, we already have candidates on the Y-chromosome.  

L226/S168 = Irish type III = Dalcassian.

L144/L195/S175 looks promising for Whalen and a few other surnames.

If course there is no Y-DNA signature that fits every man with Irish heritage and does not not fit anyone without it. For that to work, the Irish would have had to arrive from Mars or Fairyland and refuse to stir from the Emerald Isle or marry out of it from then on.  Come to think of it, they wouldn't be able to marry out with fertile offspring if they were not of the race of mere mortals. :) 

« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 08:51:16 AM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2010, 09:27:39 AM »

... If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few...
Just a follow-up on Goldenhind's earlier comments. Technically, we'll probably never know where an SNP first occurred. What we are really tracking are points of expansion.
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Jean M
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« Reply #83 on: October 06, 2010, 10:13:28 AM »

... If you mean mutations that first occurred in Ireland, there are almost certain to be quite a few...
Just a follow-up on Goldenhind's earlier comments. Technically, we'll probably never know where an SNP first occurred. What we are really tracking are points of expansion.

I agree entirely. I just meant that, since mutations crop up all the time, it's unlikely that Ireland would escape ever having a mutation occur on its soil. 

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OConnor
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« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2010, 09:04:17 PM »

Edit:

I thought seeing as M222 is found in the north of Ireland it may have come to Ireland from Scotland, where it is also found.

I was wondering if M222 could have come to Scotland from Scandinavia.


Since posting this idea i was informed that the England also has M222, and a wider group. And Scandinavia has not many M222.






« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 05:33:19 PM by OConnor » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2010, 07:56:30 PM »

I just got an email from a Danish guy who tested L21+ with 23andMe. I can't give you more info than that until I hear from him again, since I don't have his ancestral information.
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« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2010, 12:03:08 AM »

Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.

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MHammers
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« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2010, 12:40:34 AM »

Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.



The R1b is almost all L51+, except for 3 L51- types in Ostergotland/Jonkoping.   I calculated the variance of the L51+ types and got .30, .24 without 385a/b.  This I compared to Myres L11* in Germany of .247, all U106+ in Estonia@.352 and Poland@.278.
However, Myres had for all P312+ in Denmark@.167 and Sweden@.172.  I think this is mostly  L11* or U106 in this study creating the higher variance, though there probably is a younger minority of P312 and L21 present as well.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 01:16:55 AM by MHammers » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2010, 04:47:25 PM »

Does anyone know anything about this study? "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" by Karlsson.   http://tiny.cc/ojmug

They don't have R-M269 broken into subclades, just R1b3 - the label they use.
Quote from: Karlsson
Haplotypes belonging to R1b3 were shown to have the highest variance among the haplogroups found in Sweden. This was revealed by TMRCA analyses (Table 3), which show that the R1b3 haplotypes in Sweden have a common ancestor from around 9000 (3300–25 000) years ago.

Forget the TMRCA estimate, the thing that struck me is that R-M269 has the highest variance, which is indicative of relative age.

The haplotypes are here in Supplementary Table 2:  http://tiny.cc/jhddi

Does this make any sense? I was expecting some forms of I and N to have much higher variance in Sweden.



I mentioned this study some time ago in a thread I started entitled R1b1b2 in Sweden. I was looking at it from a different angle though. To me the interesting thing was that R1b-M269 was the most common HG in two out of seven Swedish provinces sampled, and the authors indicated there was a significant difference between the DNA of R1bs on either side of Lake Vättern. I won't repeat the whole point. You can read my intital post on that thread. Unfortunately most of the following discussion turned into an argument on the P312/Celtic U106/Germanic issue, which was largely my fault.
 
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rms2
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« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2011, 10:25:23 PM »

A Norwegian in the R-P312 and Subclades Project got his L21+ result today: ancestral surname Halvorson, from Skien in Telemark, Ysearch YDH7S.
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »

A Norwegian in the R-P312 and Subclades Project got his L21+ result today: ancestral surname Halvorson, from Skien in Telemark, Ysearch YDH7S.

Excellent! This is in the eastern portion of Telemark, too.
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2011, 08:31:27 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.
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« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2011, 02:45:23 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.
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« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2011, 10:04:05 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2011, 11:04:53 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.

I hope future studies include L21 percentages, since it is clearly a major Western European subclade.

I'm surprised no one has done so yet.
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« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2011, 07:50:18 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.
One certainly wouldn't be aware of that by looking at their U106 map. How did they come up with that?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2011, 07:59:46 PM »

I do wonder if L21 represented a clan or lineage who really took off due to some sort of power or importance that involved the seaways. Perhaps after playing 2nd fiddle to U152 in the central European zone (perhaps simply down to U152 being in existence a little earlier) it hit an opportunity to control another metal trade network as it entered the Atlantic facing rivers of France.  From there it may have had the benefit of contact with and access to sources and early metalworking traditions and expertise  from Iberia, perhaps forming a new rival network with the advantage of good metal sources all handily places along the major headlands of Atlantic Europe (Galcia, NW France, SW Ireland, Wales, Cornwall etc.  In prehistoric times it was far easier to transport small but precious goods by sea than by land.  

I think NW France was crucial in this and I suspect that somehow or other the arrival of S116 peoples with an L21 component in Atlantic France was crucial to the taking off of L21 and its entry into the isles.  From that position it might have had a strong control on the western seaways of the isles which were virgin territory as far as metal was concerned.  A NW French origin makes a lot of sense in terms of the beaker input to Atlantic areas of the isles in contrast to a direct Iberian one (Isles beakers and material is generally not of Iberian type).  In fact Humphrey Case said that the combination of beaker pot types and burial and metalwork traditions in Ireland would best be explained by an Atlantic French origin.  I suspect this is also probably true of Atlantic Britain.  

However, it is probably not true for eastern and much of southern Britain where the beaker groups had what some think of as a beaker-corded ware hybrid of cultural traits pointing to an input from nearer the Rhine.  Both the southern/eastern British and the Low countries groups shared a lack of ore.  Some think they (including those whose power is demonstrated at the beaker phases at Stonehenge) may have had a role as middle men controlling trade from the ore-rich Atlantic beaker zone to ore-poor north European plain.  

In this way there could have come about major difference in the clade patterns and cultural traits despite the shared ultimate roots not so long earlier as L11 folks.  

Perhaps L21 is part of a wider S116+/U152- domination of the seaways away from U152's heartlands.  There does seem to be a lot in that broad group along most of the Atlantic maritime areas from Iberia to Scandinavia.   Obviously for people who like ethnic labels this is going to be confusing as it straddles the Celtic and Germanic areas (including the heartlands of the latter) but I think its completely wrong to think that they had become two distinct groups at this time.  There is not clearcut reflection in the copper and most of the Bronze Age of the later Celtic-Germanic division along the Rhine or Main.  

I think we too easily try to back-project Celts and Germans of the Iron Age into far earlier times (c 2500BC) when most linguistics say Germanic was still 2000 years away from even coming into existence (c. 500BC).  People really want these kind of labels and ' Bronze Age west Indo-European speaker doesnt trip of the tongue enough.  Certainly prior to near the end of the Bronze Age I think the peoples of Europe were in far too much multi-directional trade and contact to be speaking separate languages.  I think that only came about when the networks started to get less widespread and more exclusive at the end of the Bronze Age (a date which varies depending on what part of Europe we are talking about). I say that as a generalisation because there could be some areas where geography dictated early linguistic separation through isolation.  The formation of a distinct German language that set them apart seems to have been particularly late.  
    
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« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »

It would be neat if someone would do a comprehensive study of Norwegian R1b1b2.

Yes, for sure. Due to L21's numbers in Norway, I am starting to think that seafaring played a large part.

I'm wondering how we would come out percentage wise in Norway. Myres didn't sample Norway at all.
One certainly wouldn't be aware of that by looking at their U106 map. How did they come up with that?

I wondered about that myself at the time the report came out.

Apparently they snatched it out of thin air, because Myres does not have any Norwegian samples.
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« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2011, 05:23:56 PM »

I wonder if any of the Vikings were R1b1b2 stock? Or is this strictly I Group?

http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/archives/01/2011/a-new-norse-saga-dna-detectives-find-vikings
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 05:24:28 PM by OConnor » Logged

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2011, 05:43:42 PM »

The idea that the Vikings were all HG I is simply nonsense.  R1b is the largest haplogroup in Denmark, and though outnumbered by HG I in Norway and Sweden, it still represents about a quarter or a fifth of the population in those countries. A study of Ydna in Swden a few yaers ago (I started a thread on the subject on this forum) showed that R1b outnumbers HG I in two of the seven Swedish provinces sampled. Although there are a few idiots who argue that all of R1b is Scandinavia is the result of Viking slaves, there is no reason to believe that the haplogroup composition in Scandinavia today is radically different from a thousand years ago.
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