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Author Topic: Icelandic R1b1b2  (Read 1894 times)
NealtheRed
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« on: May 04, 2010, 10:38:04 AM »

This subject has always interested me. When I recently read an article on Y-DNA in Iceland, I found some interesting conclusions.

For one, the article found that 44% of males in Iceland share the same haplogroup found in both Norse and Gaelic populations. While it does not say it is R1b1b2 proper, this is what it implies. Thus, R1b1b2 is the most represented haplogroup in Iceland, ahead of I1 (article states this is an indigenous, Scandinavian haplogroup) and R1a (article says this is found in Scandinavia and in low frequencies in Scotland and Ireland).

I do not know the extent of Gaelic Y chromosomes in Iceland, but I doubt it is significant. Scandinavians took Celtic wives, however, and the mtDNA is a different story. I wonder how much of this R1b1b2 is L21? Judging by R1b1b2 subclades in Norway, I think it may be a decent amount.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 10:47:41 AM »

This is the article:

Estimating Scandinavian and Gaelic Ancestry in the Male Settlers of Iceland
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 67, Issue 3, Pages 697-717.
A. Helgason, S. Sigurðardóttir, J. Nicholson, B. Sykes, E. Hill, D. Bradley, V. Bosnes, J. Gulcher, R. Ward, K. Stefánsson
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 12:39:31 PM »

It won't matter. If it is L21, the claim will be that it got there in the bodies of thralls. And it won't do much good to argue about it. We can't win that one, I think.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 01:44:02 PM »

Well, the article pointed out that R1b1b2's presence in the settlers of Iceland shows that it has been in Norway for a long time too, not just in Ireland. I can tell you right now, there is no way 40% of Iceland's male population came from Gaelic thralls.

The article also asserts that Norwegians took mostly Celtic females with them to Iceland, since most of the Norse settlers were single males. This would go against the notion that a significant percentage of slaves from the the British Isles were male.

I like how the samples the researchers chose were not biased either. Around 200 samples were chosen from both Ireland/Scotland and Scandinavia. So there is not the sampling bias we see in the databases currently.

This just goes to show you that the North Atlantic is strong in R1b1b2, whether it is Celtic or Norse.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 07:18:40 PM »

You can say all that, Neal, and I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the obvious and the inevitable.

It's not even an argument I would get into. It's just not worth it.

You know very well any L21+ that shows up in Iceland is going to be chalked up to Irish slaves, no matter what you or I or anyone else says.

Heck, plenty of people already think that about all the L21 Scandinavia itself.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 07:19:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 07:36:33 PM »

You can say all that, Neal, and I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the obvious and the inevitable.

It's not even an argument I would get into. It's just not worth it.

You know very well any L21+ that shows up in Iceland is going to be chalked up to Irish slaves, no matter what you or I or anyone else says.

Heck, plenty of people already think that about all the L21 Scandinavia itself.

Chin up, I get the impression that less and less people are thinking this way now. It may be slow progress but it's still progress.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 08:29:43 PM »

You can say all that, Neal, and I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the obvious and the inevitable.

It's not even an argument I would get into. It's just not worth it.

You know very well any L21+ that shows up in Iceland is going to be chalked up to Irish slaves, no matter what you or I or anyone else says.

Heck, plenty of people already think that about all the L21 Scandinavia itself.

I understand the frustration about all of this because I get frustrated too. But I am sticking with the peer-reviewed authors of this paper in asserting that R1b1b2 in Scandinavia (including L21) has been there since Common Germanic evolved into Old Norse.

The folks who comment on these findings and suggest that R1b in Scandinavia is due to slavery are just pundits, and nothing more. They are not the ones writing these articles or doing the research. I let the research speak for itself.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 02:41:32 PM »

This is the article:

Estimating Scandinavian and Gaelic Ancestry in the Male Settlers of Iceland
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 67, Issue 3, Pages 697-717.
A. Helgason, S. Sigurðardóttir, J. Nicholson, B. Sykes, E. Hill, D. Bradley, V. Bosnes, J. Gulcher, R. Ward, K. Stefánsson

Is it available online? Is this the one that was published some years ago? Does it actually consider R1b subclades?
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OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 07:38:45 PM »

Is this the same thing?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10931763?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 07:39:09 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 10:48:22 PM »


Yeah, this is the same article. It doesn't go into the subclades of R1b, but it does point out that some of the Norwegian R1b haplotypes match Irish R1b haplotypes.

It's just interesting how R1b came to be the dominant haplogroup in Iceland, and little of it came from Gaels.
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Heber
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2010, 01:07:33 PM »


Yeah, this is the same article. It doesn't go into the subclades of R1b, but it does point out that some of the Norwegian R1b haplotypes match Irish R1b haplotypes.

It's just interesting how R1b came to be the dominant haplogroup in Iceland, and little of it came from Gaels.


Neal, your referenced study states that  "The data suggest that 20%-25% of Icelandic founding males had Gaelic ancestry, with the remainder having Norse ancestry".

A more recent study states that "Most Icelanders are descendants of Norwegian settlers and Celts from Ireland and Scotland, brought over as slaves during the age of settlement. Recent DNA analysis suggests that around 66 percent of the male settler-era population was of Norse ancestry, whereas the female population was 60 percent Celtic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iceland
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11179019
mtDNA and the Islands of the North Atlantic: Estimating the Proportions of Norse and Gaelic Ancestry, Agnar Helgason, Eileen Hickey, Sara Goodacre, Vidar Bosnes, Ka´ri Stefa´nsson, Ryk Ward, and Bryan Sykes, Am. J. Hum. Genet. 68:723–737, 2001

Another recent study in Greenland concludes
"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines. According to a report in The Copenhagen post, the analysis was performed by Danish researchers on bones from skeletons found during excavations in south Greenland."

http://blog.taragana.com/science/2010/03/20/greenland-vikings-had-celtic-blood-reveals-dna-analysis-8791/

Of course there were probably several alternative migration paths for Gaelic DNA into Scandanavia.  Interesting topic.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2010, 07:19:49 PM »

I suppose the starting point would be a comparison of the relative proportions of R1b1b2 in Norway and Iceland.  If Iceland is 44% R1b1b2 is that not significantly higher than in Norway? Think Norway was 28%.  I think people underestimate how fluid identity and language can be.  Many Scots and Pict clans may have moved allegance to Viking lords and taken up their language and culture.  Lets put it this way, after a period of dominance of Norse culture, many clans of Norse descent in the Scottish western isles reverted to Gaelic without any major conquest. The clans who are thought to have driven out the vikings were significantly viking themselves.  I think it is likely that many little clans and groups declared for whoever was the big cheese at the time and many people of non-Viking ancestry in the Scottish islands could have arrived in Iceland albeit at a time when they were Norse in material culture and language.   I do not think the viking warbands operated on the line of descent basis that the Celtic peoples favoured.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 07:26:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Heber
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2010, 05:08:10 AM »

Many Scots and Pict clans may have moved allegance to Viking lords and taken up their language and culture.  Lets put it this way, after a period of dominance of Norse culture, many clans of Norse descent in the Scottish western isles reverted to Gaelic without any major conquest.


An good example if Gaelic/Viking admixture is the Lords of the Isles, McDonald Clan.
"The designation Lord of the Isles (Scottish Gaelic: Triath nan Eilean or Rí Innse Gall), now a Scottish title of nobility, emerged from a series of mixed-blood Viking/Gaelic rulers of the west coast and islands of Scotland in the Middle Ages."
They dominated the north western Isles of Ireland and Scotland in the middle ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles

Their advantage came from the use of the Birlinn a modified version of the Viking longboat which included an improved rudder.

They are most associated with the Lordship of the Isles, a Gaelic state which ruled much of western and northern Scotland, and held territories across the Irish Sea world. By 1411, as part of the campaign which led to the Battle of Harlaw, it is known that Domhnall, Lord of the Isles was able to transport ten thousand soldiers, and doubtless hundreds of camp followers and many tonnes of supplies of food and equipment, on a single fleet that must have numbered several thousand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birlinn


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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2010, 12:00:05 PM »


Yeah, this is the same article. It doesn't go into the subclades of R1b, but it does point out that some of the Norwegian R1b haplotypes match Irish R1b haplotypes.

It's just interesting how R1b came to be the dominant haplogroup in Iceland, and little of it came from Gaels.


Neal, your referenced study states that  "The data suggest that 20%-25% of Icelandic founding males had Gaelic ancestry, with the remainder having Norse ancestry".

A more recent study states that "Most Icelanders are descendants of Norwegian settlers and Celts from Ireland and Scotland, brought over as slaves during the age of settlement. Recent DNA analysis suggests that around 66 percent of the male settler-era population was of Norse ancestry, whereas the female population was 60 percent Celtic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iceland
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11179019
mtDNA and the Islands of the North Atlantic: Estimating the Proportions of Norse and Gaelic Ancestry, Agnar Helgason, Eileen Hickey, Sara Goodacre, Vidar Bosnes, Ka´ri Stefa´nsson, Ryk Ward, and Bryan Sykes, Am. J. Hum. Genet. 68:723–737, 2001

Another recent study in Greenland concludes
"An analysis of DNA from a Viking gravesite near a 1000 year-old church in southern Greenland shows that those buried there had strong Celtic bloodlines. According to a report in The Copenhagen post, the analysis was performed by Danish researchers on bones from skeletons found during excavations in south Greenland."

http://blog.taragana.com/science/2010/03/20/greenland-vikings-had-celtic-blood-reveals-dna-analysis-8791/

Of course there were probably several alternative migration paths for Gaelic DNA into Scandanavia.  Interesting topic.


The study I referenced also states that more Celtic females were involved with the settlement of Iceland than Celtic males. Presumably, Norsemen took the women with them to Iceland, whereas Gaelic men could have switched sides...as Alan pointed out?

I think it was very insightful to mention the cultural syncretism between Norse and Gaels in the Western Isles, and around the Irish Sea. That area was controlled by Norway for some time, and did not even incorporate into the Kingdom of Scotland until after the Battle of Largs.

The genetics will be similar too. As with Clan Donald and its cadet branches, a number of clans and families in both Scotland and Ireland have Norse blood.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 04:11:42 PM »

I agree completely that some natives joined forces with the Vikings in Ireland, and probably adopted their customs. I suspect they were most likely bilingual, speaking Old Norse as well as Gaelic. So all people of Irish ethnic origin who accompanied the Vikings on their various wanderings were not necessarily slaves. For instance there is an indication from both personal and place-names of an Irish element amongst the Norwegian Vikings who settled in Normandy. I have no doubt the same situation occurred in Scotland and Orkneys as well.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 08:06:27 AM »

From what I gather, the Norse who settled in Iceland were thoroughly Norwegian, but what about the precursors to the Normans?

Is it generally argued that Rollo is Danish or Norwegian?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 08:16:38 PM »

From what I gather, the Norse who settled in Iceland were thoroughly Norwegian, but what about the precursors to the Normans?

Is it generally argued that Rollo is Danish or Norwegian?

Unfortunately this is not an easy question to answer.

It is widely accepted that the bulk of the Scandinavian settlers in Normandy came from Denmark, though there were Norwegians (probabaly coming at least in part from Ireland) in the Cotentin peninsula (La Manche). This is based on a study of Scandinavian personal names in Normandy by a French scholar some years ago.

Rollo himself is a different matter. No one even knows what his actual name was, let alone where he came from. Hrolfr is favored by most, but Hrollaugr (my choice) and even Hraithulfr have also been proposed.

The early sources are contradictory. The earliest, Dudo of St. Quentin, a Norman monk of the 11th century clearly states Rollo was a Dane. Later sources say he was a Norwegian. Icelandic sagas of late 12th century date identified him with the legendary figure Gongu-Hrolfr, who supposedly died in Russia, and made him a son of Rognvaldr, jarl of Møre, a Norwegian. Some years ago the eminent historian of Normandy D. C. Douglas wrote an article arguing for the latter theory, and most historians have accepted this without critically examing the evidence. However the issue is still hotly disputed. If you are really interested, I highly recommend this short article which thoroughly discusses all the relevant evidence and comes to the conclusion Rollo's origin is unknown.

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/rollo000.htm

Edit: Correction- Dudo of St.Quentin was actually a Frankish clergyman from the Vermandois who became a chaplin to Norman Duke Richard II in 1025 and who was commissioned by the Duke to write a history of the Normans.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 02:46:37 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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