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Author Topic: When did L21 arrive in Ireland/What are the oldest Irish L21 Haplotypes  (Read 1138 times)
eochaidh
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« on: May 09, 2010, 05:35:04 PM »

On an L21 forum, a poster suggested that my Irish L21 haplotype (FSH3F) (97610) may be fairly recent in Ireland because I have only three (3) matches at 67 markers. His view is that the gaps between tiny Irish clusters, like mine, will be found on the Continent when more testing is done.

Another poster responded by noting thet the "Colla" Haplotype is thought to have arrived in Ireland approximately 1700 years ago from Britain.

My questions are: What is the current best estimate for the arrival of L21 in Ireland? And what are the oldest L21 Irish haplotypes found so far? I'll add another question, which is how are the Irish haplotypes comparing with those fround through the French Heritage DNA Project?

Overall, which Isles haplotypes are showing similarity to Continental haplotypes? I know that all L21 haplotypes are similar, but are there any Isles haplotypes that are corresponding to Continental haplotypes?

Thanks,  Miles
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OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2010, 06:43:51 PM »

I hope you don't go gambling your paycheck on my hunches. :)

1700 years ago is around the time of the supposed Collas conquests of western Scotland from Northern Ireland. that off the top of my head. I never heard any pre-history tales of movement from England to Scotland. Im not saying it didn't happen. Maybe it happened earlier?

There seems to be some likenesses in the R-L21 in Ireland and Scotland. Who knows..maybe the Scots came to Ireland..and they went back.

I don't know about England. I'm not sure what dominant haplo types are found there.



« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 06:45:08 PM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jdean
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 06:52:24 PM »

On an L21 forum, a poster suggested that my Irish L21 haplotype (FSH3F) (97610) may be fairly recent in Ireland because I have only three (3) matches at 67 markers. His view is that the gaps between tiny Irish clusters, like mine, will be found on the Continent when more testing is done.

Not an answer to your question, but personally I think this may prove to be the case for a lot of people who don't have matches.

My closest none surname match is 60/67, after that the next closest I can find is 55/67. I know my family have lived in England (the most extensively tested area in the world?) for a good few hundred years so where are the other matches, they can't have all died out?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 07:32:36 PM »

In the case of Ireland, Ireland's population was nearly cut in half during the 1840s. Couldn't it be possible that the gaps are cause by Irish who went to the New World and Australia? How many Irish Y results are out there as compared to the millions of Irish Y men throughout the world? Yes, there have been a lot of Irish testers as compared to other ethnic groups, but still, it's got to be a small percentage of Irishmen. I guess I'm not getting why the answer to gaps would be the Continent.

Thanks,  Miles
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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 07:41:56 PM »

Fair point but if the answer did lie with continental ancestry you could still be talking about a line that was in the Isles for many hundreds of years, any way it's only an idea which I've had rolling about my head for a while, and it has been pointed out to me that there are other scenarios that could explain this as well.
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OConnor
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 09:20:48 PM »

could L21 be a few thousand years old?

 Even if it came from the continent..so did every one else.

I would look at the murphy results. That is one of the most populous surnames in Ireland. If I'm correct they could have a good assortment of L21 variations with 180+ members http://www.pricegen.com/murphy.html
« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 09:32:25 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 04:35:06 AM »

I don't know this for sure, it's just speculation, but I think the L21 in Ireland may not be too much younger than that on the Continent or in neighboring regions of the British Isles. My impression from the various age estimates is that L21 expanded rapidly in NW Europe, an initial expansion that may have taken less than 1,000 years or perhaps even as few as several hundred years.

We can't really think of an individual haplotype as "old" or "young". They're all both: young because they are borne by modern men, old because L21 is several thousand years old.

Age estimates are done by measuring the variance of groups of haplotypes relative to each other and, in the interclade method, relative to those in other subclades. Irish haplotypes can only be considered "old" or "young" relative to the L21 haplotypes from some other place.
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OConnor
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 08:02:57 AM »

I wonder about the expansion.
Military?  Fruitfull families?..or both?

Could metals have played a role in expansion?
I'm trying to imagine a bronze aged gold rush.
I would say all metals were valuable back then. tin, copper, and gold.  
Those ones i am familiar with.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 08:03:44 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 12:07:52 PM »

I was under the impression that most of the Irish surnamed in the databases ARE the descendents of the ones who left Ireland rather than those who stayed. I agree with eochaid on the basic point that smaller clusters will be barely visible wherever they are. The clusters that are big enough to spot in a sample of a few hundred are by definition those that form a good few percent of the population. A cluster in Ireland that say forms 1 % of the population could be barely visible or worse but 1% is still maybe 20,000 men in Ireland

As for the continent, I consider the situation of spotting clusters in the size of sample of 67 marker tested French for example is way beyond hopeless. Only an enormous cluster could possibly be spotted out of such a tiny sample.  
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 05:35:31 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 12:09:05 PM »

I wonder about the expansion.
Military?  Fruitfull families?..or both?

Could metals have played a role in expansion?
I'm trying to imagine a bronze aged gold rush.
I would say all metals were valuable back then. tin, copper, and gold.  
Those ones i am familiar with.
There are many topics rolled into those questions.  A great article for you to read to get more background is this one.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
Jean M
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 01:42:59 PM »

Thanks Mike! I think this is the relevant bit:

Quote
The Bell Beaker Culture bought the Bronze Age to the British Isles. To be more exact, Beaker folk initially brought the Copper Age around 2,450 BC, homing in on the copper belts of Ireland and Wales. They left their characteristic beakers at a copper-working site on Ross Island, in Lough Leane, County Kerry. To judge by chemical composition, copper from Ireland was traded into Britain, along with gold from the Mourne Mountains. The incomers boosted what had been a dwindling population of farmers, and created a thriving society. From around 2,200 BC Beaker interest in Britain intensified as Cornwall was discovered to be a prime source for tin, the precious component of true bronze.

For decades a vision of prehistoric population continuity shaped a view of Bell Beaker in the British Isles as a purely cultural phenomenon. The discovery of the Amesbury Archer near Stonehenge forced a reconsideration. This man lived around 2,300 BC and was buried with Beaker pots and wrist guards. His gold hair binders are the earliest gold objects found in Britain. Tests were carried out on the Archer’s teeth and bones. They show that he came from Central Europe, near the Alps. The copper of his knives was also from the Continent. The Beaker isotope project is taking a fresh look at the Beaker Culture in Britain.

So what language did the Bell Beaker folk bring to the British Isles? Why were two types of Celtic spoken in the British Isles by the time we have any records? Gaelic seems the older form. We can picture the first Beaker arrivals speaking an archaic form of Celtic that evolved over the millennia into the Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic that we know today. By contrast the Brittonic (or Brythonic) language of Britain was closely related to Gaulish, spoken across the Channel by the Roman period. That suggests that Britain received more waves of Celtic migration than did Ireland, continuing into the Iron Age. This fits the archaeological picture...

But we need ancient DNA.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 01:48:28 PM by Jean M » Logged
OConnor
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 06:36:07 PM »

An interesting find.

"Already, the skeletal remains of a two to four-year-old child that were placed in the cave in the Bronze Age, about 3,500 years ago, were subject to ancient DNA analysis
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/archaeologists-baffled-over-bizarre-viking-discovery-118393.html

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Jean M
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 09:14:46 PM »

An interesting find.

"Already, the skeletal remains of a two to four-year-old child that were placed in the cave in the Bronze Age, about 3,500 years ago, were subject to ancient DNA analysis

Unfortunately they only extracted mtDNA: haplogroup U5. That is the only ancient DNA from Ireland, as far as I know.
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